Information wanted

Hi Koarle, if you've got questions, do not hesitate.

Harmonie.

I found a lot of info on Hungary on the web, but a lot is written by people with a vast commercial interest to paint a bright picture: estate agents, B&B owners.
What I would like to know is how is real life?  Is there a crisis going on?  How do people react to foreigners buying their property and living in their country?  What is a recommended area for someone who likes sports ( cycling ) and culture ( including cafeculture).
Also to have an idea on the cost of living:
What is an average electricity bill,
What is the amount of council tax on a yearly basis,
What are the water rates monthly,
TV tax?
Do retired people pay income tax, and if yes from what amount of income
What is the best way to buy a house, through an estate agent or privately and instruct your own solicitor?
Many thanks!

Koarle wrote:

Is there a crisis going on?

Health care is being torn apart, cost of living is going up, jobs are hard to get, government is incompetent.... like most any other place, just with some unique Hungarian twists. You may find some "comforts of home" are not available here, prices are actually higher than abroad for some items, most everything costs here (e.g. maintaining a bank account usually has a fee), and consumer choice can be limited (e.g.: see this discussion https://www.expat.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=218684)

Koarle wrote:

How do people react to foreigners buying their property and living in their country?

Sadly, for the Hungarians, many need money. So they are willing to sell to investors from abroad as fewer and fewer here have money to buy. Hungarians are mostly outwardly kind to foreigners. But they will not tell you what they really think until they know you a while. Then their opinion may be exposed as somewhat different. But again, I don't find this all too different than other places, it just again has a Hungarian twist.

Koarle wrote:

What is a recommended area for someone who likes sports ( cycling ) and culture ( including cafeculture).

Hungary is  great place for cycling. See routes at http://www.bikemap.net

For cafe culture ... I recommend Vienna. Better coffee.

Koarle wrote:

What is the best way to buy a house, through an estate agent or privately and instruct your own solicitor?

Depends on how long you want to take to get property and how much you want to pay. Using an estate agent will cost you the most, but will be the "fastest" (in quotes as everything is relative here). And a lot of property in Hungary is available, but not listed on any exchange. Some only have a "Elado" sign, and some have no sign at all (you have to find out the owner from the local land office and ask the owner if they are willing to sell). As a foreigner for a private purchase with your own attorney/solicitor expect to pay 50-70%+ more for the property then a Hungarian would pay, but that may still be less then using an agent.

Also, many properties need to be renovated. So plan for that as an extra cost. If so, budget 30%-70% on top of the cost of the property for renovation costs. Aside: getting a good contractor here can also have its own problems -- the work may look good for a year or two, but then start to deteriorate.

All just my experience. It may differ for others.

Thanks for the info.  I am trying to find a friendly, cultural country.  The costs of living in France are rising rapidly.
Here are my 2012 cost of living, based on 2;
average monthly supermarket bill: 320€  (that is being very careful)
Electricity: 52.50€ a month 
Water:11€ a month
bottled gas: 14€ a month
Wood for heating: 46.66€ a month
Council tax to include TV licence: 1056€ a year

On top: telephone/internet: 35€ a month
Car insurance, basic third party: ( Citroen Picasso diesel ) 256€ a year
Private health insurance for 2: 75€ a month ( subsidised by my employer)

House prices are low, but a lot of them need also renovating, and  then getting ripped off by local builders ( as they think you are a wealthy foreigner ) or British builders ( out on getting rich overnight).
Most locals do not like foreigners ( that includes French from other regions) and are plainly rude to you in local supermarkets ( ignoring you) and complaining about a service gets you nowhere.  It might be a different picture in other parts of France.
As in Hungary there is high unemployment, the overall majority here only earn basic wages.  I never had a payrise in 5 years ( no index).  Fruit and vegetables in the main supermarkets are mostly not fresh and of poor quality.  The restaurants are touch and go.  Beef is outstanding though!
Sometimes you find a fantastic 3 course meal for 11.80€ per person .  Cycling is good here, with no traffic. But it certainly isn't popular here.   
So, where  can have I an improved lifestyle?

Koarle wrote:

Electricity: 52.50€ a month 
bottled gas: 14€ a month

Prices per energy unit in Hungary is no great deal. Sometimes it is more than in other EU countries. You can compare prices at: http://www.energy.eu/

Also, there is a 27% VAT now which is a retail killer. There are rumors that the government may raise it to 30%.

Koarle wrote:

Wood for heating: 46.66€ a month

If that is per month cost, averaged over the year (divided by 12 months), we pay only slightly less. But that will also depend on the size of the area you are heating of course.

Koarle wrote:

Council tax to include TV licence: 1056€ a year

Depends on the size of the house and the location (city versus country side). We pay much less than that since our house is below the higher tariff threshold, in the country side, and outside a village proper. But again, there are rumors of possible tax increases.

Koarle wrote:

On top: telephone/internet: 35€ a month
Car insurance, basic third party: ( Citroen Picasso diesel ) 256€ a year

About the same.

Koarle wrote:

Private health insurance for 2: 75€ a month ( subsidised by my employer)

Paid by employer here. Else, if self employed, expect to pay at least 100 EUR per month per person unless your income is at "poverty" rates.

Hi,

Depending on the kind of bike tracks you are into, take a look at the Szentendre area: nice hills with old growth forests. Theoretically Eurovelo 6 passes through it, but critical segments are missing, where you must share the road with high speed car traffic, which I never do.

The general sentiment about French people in Hungary is that they are rude to foreigners and don't speak languages on purpose, so if you talk to people in English (which together with German covers about 90% of the foreign speaking population), you'll get positively surprised looks :-)

There is a strong "nationalist" subculture who hate all foreigners and minorities, but you'll hardly meet them at all. Then the large majority speak no foreign language and are absorbed by their decline to poverty: you'll see them every day, but not interact much. But the rest, including the majority of young people, are in fact welcoming, and feel proud and grateful for foreigners coming here, learning about us.

Hi, I have been living in Hungary for 10 months and I love it here. We rent a flat in downtown Budapest and rent is MUCH cheaper than in the UK and I expect France just in case you decide not to buy. We live in a modernised apartment of about 65 square metres and pay 250 euros a month. With all bills and internet (we don't have a TV) we pay around 350 euros between the two of us.
I find the supermarkets generally expensive compared to our Hungarian wages but the big pluses for us are that alcohol is cheap and there are lots of cheap ways to eat out. In the UK we ate out once a month, here more like twice a week.
Overall I would say our quality of life has improved and the weather is great snow in the winter and tropical temperatures in the summer - if you like that sort of thing.
My boyfriend cycles and there are plenty of bike lanes and more new ones appear regularly. There is also some great villages outside Budapest to cycle to and you could do the circumference of Lake Balaton, that's a popular one.
I also have about an equal amount of expat friends and Hngarian friends and find Hungarian people lovely - in general. It's just like anywhere else in the world, nice people and not so nice people.

Good luck.

Koarle wrote:

What is a recommended area for someone who likes sports ( cycling ) and culture ( including cafeculture)...

Cycling is quite good in Hungary. I'm surprised it's not more popular in France what with the Tour de France etc.  I live in a village on the edge of Budapest, only 15 minutes from the centre. I'm into Mountain Biking (MTB). I have access to extensive MTB tracks in this area (Budakeszi). Balaton is particularly good for cycling (it may be a lake, but it's certainly not flat around the edges).  Road cycling seems to be pretty popular as I've seen lots of cyclists (even in snowy, -6 deg C weather) all over the place! They are the hard core road cyclists. Anything below about 5 deg C, I stay at home. It can be quite dangerous on some roads but where I live I can cycle short 25km/2h ride on the MTB easily without being on any seriously busy roads. Balaton's circumference can be cycled in about 3 days doing 60-70km a day. On the other hand, you can do some nice relatively challenging routes, mostly off roads, 50km (4-5h), without a problem. In the summer, the challenge is more the temperature and sun, 35-38 deg C means taking 3-4 litres of water with you. There are some very good cycle maps for all areas of Hungary with marked tracks and paths.

Koarle wrote:

So, where  can have I an improved lifestyle?

I would seriously consider Thailand if you can score a good job with full benefits. The only thing about the place is that one needs money. It's cheaper than Hungary, easier on language (English is spoken well by many) but you need steady income and support from an expat employer, particularly medical care. That said, the medical services are excellent (if you have money). Crime can be a problem but that's the same just about anywhere.

If you came to Hungary, rent a place to live for the first few years and see how you like it. Don't rush into tying up all your capital in buying a house. The market looks moribund and the economics are poor. You could find yourself stuck here in Hungary, no way to liquidate your assets and no way to get out.

If I may suggest to describe your situation/budget and lifestyle preferences (budapest/town/village) a bit more in detail,  you can get more useful answers.
You must realize most relevant things are relative so the answer depends on your background.

Generally I would dare to make the educated guess that prices are so much lower here (especially service and property) that you should have a very acceptable lifestyle from a reasonable western salary/pension.
Living costs are less than half of that of Il-de-France. (Looked at it briefly when applying for a job there)
I.e. spending 800-1000 EURs p. month will buy you what I personally consider a quite reasonable living standard - whether you agree depends on your background (I am a hungarian with a 20 yrs history in austria and germany mainly as a student).

E.g. roughly 2-400eur p.m. should be enough to rent a very reasonable one-person flat including heating, etc. in larger towns, 3-500eur in Budapest.(very rough estimate, of course and what is 'reasonable'?)
[I just rented a large 75 sqm, flat in mediocre condition but in a very nice neighbourhood in Debrecen - a univ. town with many foreign students - for 215eur+expenses i.e.  varying btween 270 and 400 eur p. month summer/winter]

Regarding living costs, there are  a number of 'is that salary enough to live on?' conversations in this forum within the last 12 months with some detailed answers, look at them.

To my mind, the main problematic point is health care.
State health care is not very good (it is still europe, but you can have bad luck) - and I simply don't know if you can buy extra private health care by e.g. paying a private insurance.

Thailand vs. Hungary?
I am surely biased, and I have spent only 2 days in Thailand(only Bankok), but I must say, I personally do not feel cosmopolitan enough to retire in a country with a culture *that* far away from my own. Hungarian is hard, but *still* easier than Thai :-)   (except if you already speak an Asian tonal language); no doubt Thai has the more beautiful script..!

Crime - I think, with all that crisis, Hungary still ranks quite well in terms of crime on world scale, even european scale - obviously, there are regional differences, don't retire in a village with a recent history of ethnical problems.

Anyway, I guess there is no other way than come and see it for at least a few weeks, the country is cheap enough for this.

First of all a thank you for everybody replying to my post.
I do appreciate the valuable information.
Living outside the EU is not an option.

We are looking for a retirement country with a location in a town / city or outside the town/city but within easy reach by public transport ( max 10 minutes ).  Also max 1 hour from Budapest airport.  I am a keen ( racing ) cyclist, but  also enjoys culture and social café scene  ( theater, opera, music events ) .
We are looking for a safe place with good healthcare.
Our budget would be approx 1500€ a month ( with sufficient cash to buy a property of 70 000€ ).  My language skills Dutch, French, English German should be sufficient to live in that country.  I will certainly have a go at any foreign language.  We do not lead an extravagant lifestyle.  We do not pay income tax in France .
Yes, cycling is popular but not all over France!  The typical cycling countries are Belgium and Italy. Although the UK is improving a lot.  But on safety too many cyclists get killed/injured in the UK or Spain.
The price of wood is a monthly average and supplied by neighbours ( normal price would be 10€ a month more ).

Koarle wrote:

Living outside the EU is not an option.

Have you thought about Malta?  This has special low tax arrangements for retirees. Cyprus? (Not North Cyprus because of the land ownership issues).

Koarle wrote:

We are looking for a retirement country with a location in a town / city or outside the town/city but within easy reach by public transport ( max 10 minutes ).  Also max 1 hour from Budapest airport.  I am a keen ( racing ) cyclist, but  also enjoys culture and social café scene  ( theater, opera, music events ) .

I think you would find it difficult to enjoy the theatre because it's all in Hungarian. They do have irregular English language performances I believe but I've not been for years so I'm out of touch. Opera and musical events are of course universal. Plenty of big names come to Hungary. If you like musicals, they do the usual ones like Cats but you'd find it to be in Hungarian.  Many cinemas show English language versions of the latest movies but this would mainly be in Budapest. A huge amount of TV is also irritatingly dubbed into Hungarian. Thankfully they don't do the even more annoying and absurd "lector" system favoured in Poland.

Since Malev disappeared, Budapest is a painful place to get to and from. If you want to go long haul (and I do, frequently), everything involves at least two flights. Vienna has more international long haul flights. These are really your only airport choices in the region, so midway between say Budapest and Vienna could be worthwhile. You might even consider near the border area with Austria, say around Sopron. This is not more than an hour to Vienna airport. In Sopron, nearly everyone speaks German to some degree. It also has a relatively big hospital (teaching unit of the famous Debrecen University medical school). The city also caters for medical tourists from Austria - particularly dentistry. Public transport is easy there as well - direct trains to Vienna and to Budapest.

Koarle wrote:

We are looking for a safe place with good healthcare. Our budget would be approx 1500€ a month ( with sufficient cash to buy a property of 70 000€ ).  My language skills Dutch, French, English German should be sufficient to live in that country.  I will certainly have a go at any foreign language.  We do not lead an extravagant lifestyle.  We do not pay income tax in France .

For EUR 70K and 1.5K a month, Sopron is a possibility. EUR 70K would not really work in central or suburbs of Budapest except perhaps for an apartment. Prices and sellers expectations are still far too high in Budapest. You will always pay more for stuff if you open your mouth and they know you are a foreigner.

Koarle wrote:

Yes, cycling is popular but not all over France!  The typical cycling countries are Belgium and Italy. Although the UK is improving a lot.  But on safety too many cyclists get killed/injured in the UK or Spain.

Cycling is of course free and there's plenty of space to do it. I guess the UK has the Bradley Wiggins (and others) Olympics effect now. The government there promotes cycling with tax breaks and so on these days. I do wish there was a bit more effort here in Hungary, with more cycle lanes out of town between villages. Some of the inter-village roads are very dangerous. They have plenty of cycling lanes in Budapest now. For road cycling, the worst danger is really the unthinking drivers here - too fast, not paying attention and always on the blinking mobile phone!

Koarle wrote:

The price of wood is a monthly average and supplied by neighbours ( normal price would be 10€ a month more ).

If you ever buy any wood here, it needs to be checked for water content (buy a meter for 20 EUR in Aldi). A lot of wood I've seen for sale or have heard people buying from door to door sales people has far too high a moisture content. I suspect that the wood has been cut down in the past year.  Nearly all the energy goes into evaporating the water. It needs to be left out to dry for at least 2 years before it's any real use. Hence I think the sales going on door to door here are simply con tricks. So, buying from established chain shops (like Praktiker) would lessen the risk but probably you'd pay more per tonne. I think EUR 70 /tonne is about normal.

fluffy2560 wrote:

You will always pay more for stuff if you open your mouth and they know you are a foreigner.

Very true. Had personal experience there. The asking price went up 50% when the seller found out I was interested in buying (I had someone else call first to ask the price in Hungarian).

Koarle wrote:

A lot of wood I've seen for sale or have heard people buying from door to door sales people has far too high a moisture content.

Yes, this is also true, and one with potentially significant consequences.

klsallee wrote:

...Very true. Had personal experience there. The asking price went up 50% when the seller found out I was interested in buying (I had someone else call first to ask the price in Hungarian).....

I do the same. Mrs Fluffy usually calls first, then when we turn up on site (for whatever purpose), I keep my mouth shut and I'm always dressed down.

Hmmmm... I feel a rant coming on....:

I think it's pretty ignorant and stupid behaviour of the sellers to put the price up for foreigners as it threatens the entire market. The true market price can easily be found by researching on the Internet. For example, if one wants to buy, say, second hand tables, just monitor prices over a period of time (months) on auction sites (Ebay etc). The average selling price is the real market value. Overpricing stuff means no sale and creates a poor reputation for all sellers. It's pure ignorance. Many countryside people in Hungary (and elsewhere) have not understood that having good information leads to more efficient markets and more accurate pricing.  This is one of my biggest complaints about the Hungarian (and indeed the Austrian) real estate market. There's no accurate (and free) information about property sales in a particular area. Contrast this with the UK, where historical property prices (down to individual houses) are easily available and totally for free online. Real property prices in Hungary I believe should be about 1/2 the advertised price.

....Rant time out

klsallee wrote:

Yes, this is also true, and one with potentially significant consequences.

I didn't know about the health aspects.

I thought it was the wet sap coating the lining of your chimney and which then catch fire as it builds up over years.  But primarly, the worst thing is the inefficiency, you lose a lot (~50%?)of the heat value of the wood producing water vapour.

It's not like Hungary hasn't been using wood for thousands of years, you'd think people would have got wise to the dangers of using newly cut wood.

fluffy2560 wrote:

I didn't know about the health aspects.

The colder the fire (i.e. when there is more water in the wood) the less complete is the burn. So more particulate matter in the smoke, more aromatic hydrocarbons (such as benzene), more volatile organic compounds, etc. None of this is healthy. This is also why all newer quality wood stoves have a secondary combustion chamber, which tries to further reduce these outputs. But this only works when the fire is hot (i.e. is defeated by wet wood)

fluffy2560 wrote:

I though it was the wet sap coating the lining of your chimney and which then catch fire as it builds up over years.

Yes, that is a problem from wet wood too.

The creosote in your chimney is also greatly increased by the wet wood making the smoke cooler than it should be. This means, the creosote condenses on the walls of the chimney rather than escaping out the chimney as it would if the smoke was hotter. There will always be some creosote deposit even with a hot fire, but that can be taken care of with a yearly sweep.

So wet wood is really damaging to both the oven, the chimney and our lungs.

klsallee wrote:

The colder the fire (i.e. when there is more water in the wood) the less complete is the burn..... But this only works when the fire is hot (i.e. is defeated by wet wood)

Yes, I remember reading that now when my wood oven (so called "Swedish oven") system was designed and installed.

There's a convoluted system of passing the exhaust gases through the oven to ensure that it is fully utilised. The installer also advised me to made sure the flue pipe (from the oven to the wall) was of sufficient length to radiate additional heat into the room - too small, inefficient and too hot (in the chimney), too long, inefficient to get the chimney up to a sufficient working temperature (presumably to evaporate any by-product mentioned).

Chimney sweep came and did a certification and pronounced it all in order and then we were in business. She (yes, she) commented it was a very "neat, tidy and efficient" installation. She was right. It halved my gas bill!

fluffy2560 wrote:

I think it's pretty ignorant and stupid behaviour of the sellers to put the price up for foreigners as it threatens the entire market.

Many Hungarians I know who sell property have more than one, they are not in any big hurry to sell any of them, and are willing to take a wait position. I don't even think many 'Elado' signs are really in earnest, but only there in case a sugar daddy comes down the road. So I don't think they care much about the short, or even long, term market conditions.

Even with that being said, the property I mentioned above sold shortly after I saw it for even more than price I was quoted (and, yes, it was sold to a foreigner). So I personally don't blame the locals for the duel price strategy, since it can certainly pay off as long as there are sufficient market forces (i.e. expats or foreign investors willing to pay more than local "market rates") to make it worth their while.

klsallee wrote:

...there are sufficient market forces (i.e. expats or foreign investors willing to pay more than local "market rates") to make it worth their while.

This is just inefficient markets (hence my rant about non-transparent pricing). If sufficient information was available, market pricing would apply regardless of being a foreigner or not.

The lack of a personal bankruptcy law doesn't help. Property just hangs about like a bad smell because no-one forecloses except government agencies. It's really rather strange to me the property market in Hungary.

No turnover in the property market does not generate tax revenue (stamp duty) by recirculating (or introducing) property money in (to) the economy. One sees the same in the UK - people would rather improve their existing houses than move - all to avoid stamp duty.

fluffy2560 wrote:

This is just inefficient.... non-transparent

True of many areas and issues in Hungary.

Besides, I think obfuscation of a price is perfectly fine in a free market. Expecting a price to be advertised may place the buyer at an advantage, while not advertising the price puts the seller at an advantage. If one does not like the initial conditions, then simply don't join that dance and go where the terms are more to your preferences. After all, by showing up dressed down and not speaking also means you are in the dance and obfuscating your position as well..... right?

fluffy2560 wrote:

If sufficient information was available, market pricing would apply regardless of being a foreigner or not.

Not necessarily. Human nature is still not completely or even adequately encapsulated into a sustainable market theory. It only takes a small number of unexpected players acting against "market theory" to disrupt an idealized market and drive it to a stable, yet less than "optimal" position. And there are social and cultural issues at play as well that can adjust that equilibrium. The idea one can just walk into another area and inject simple solutions and then expect it to work in some manner or way one expects is somewhat idealistic. One has to consider that in the current property market in Hungary.

fluffy2560 wrote:

No turnover in the property market does not generate tax revenue (stamp duty) by recirculating (or introducing) property money in (to) the economy.

Specific property resale taxes are dependent on the location of course. Where I live, there is no such resale tax on any property, only on a livable house (per sq meter). And that tax is miniscule to a buyer compared to interest burden on a bank loan. So I find the "free market" elements in Hungary more a hindrance to property sales than government taxes (with the possible exception of the VAT rate here).

I do think this discussion may help Koarle make informed decisions on the local property market, but to comment more in depth about market theory would go off topic (even if I find it a really interesting point of discussion).

klsallee wrote:

... After all, by showing up dressed down and not speaking also means you are in the dance and obfuscating your position as well..... right?

Sure, I'm not an innocent theorist here. On the other hand, I simply wouldn't even consider playing the game if I had the right information beforehand. Outliers would not be considered but how to determine what's an outlier? e.g. no information = inefficient market.

klsallee wrote:

.Where I live, there is no such resale tax on any property, only on a livable house (per sq meter). And that tax is miniscule to a buyer compared to interest burden on a bank loan. So I find the "free market" elements in Hungary more a hindrance to property sales than government taxes (with the possible exception of the VAT rate

There are plenty of "hidden" taxes which need to be factored into the cost of ownership. Those include ones you describe - VAT, local government property taxes, capital gains tax and indeed stamp duty (property transaction taxes). Last time I checked capital gains was a declining balance on property over 10 years. But I doubt anyone is making capital gains out here.

klsallee wrote:

I do think this discussion may help Koarle make informed decisions on the local property market, but to comment more in depth about market theory would go off topic (even if I find it a really interesting point of discussion).

Sure, Koarle wants to buy a house or an apartment, so he really needs to know what he's getting into out here. Main thing is not to over pay, to make sure who owns the place and treat real estate agents and even lawyers with suspicion.

It's possible now to check online (against a fee) in Hungary for details on a specific property about who owns it but there's not much real solid information in the property record about debts, liens and mortgages etc in the public record. This is something the lawyers can see but not the general public. Individuals need prior registration. It's a bit bizarre the way it currently works. I am surprised it even needs to be paid for.

Small anecdote....

I did an enquiry recently on some land I was interested in and it cost a couple of thousand Forints to get the property record. What I really wanted to know was how far the owner was in the hole debt wise so I could determine if he was spinning me something of a sob story. Turned out he'd not been entirely open about who owned the property and while I could not find out the level of his debt, he was clearly uncomfortable knowing I knew much more about it than he'd expected. My next step was to find out, with his permission (of course), what his debts were at the mortgage provider (and therefore I could find out the original purchase price). It rapidly fizzled out when I asked for that. Not against him making a profit of course, just wanted to know what the history was.

Basically, information is hard to come by out this way.  Inefficient markets. Caution advised!!!

fluffy2560 wrote:

make sure who owns the place and treat real estate agents and even lawyers with suspicion.

Good advise for any property market on the planet.

fluffy2560 wrote:

It's possible now to check online (against a fee) in Hungary for details on a specific property about who owns it but there's not much real solid information in the property record about debts, liens and mortgages etc in the public record. This is something the lawyers can see but not the general public. Individuals need prior registration. It's a bit bizarre the way it currently works. I am surprised it even needs to be paid for.

In the USA it varies between states, and there are some "non-disclosure states" that do not provide free public disclosure of all property information either. So I guess I personally don't find it so bizarre here.

fluffy2560 wrote:

Caution advised!!!

Also good advise.

klsallee wrote:

...In the USA it varies between states, and there are some "non-disclosure states" that do not provide free public disclosure of all property information either. So I guess I personally don't find it so bizarre here.

Wouldn't know about the USA.

Apart from lack of information, the bizarre bit here is that to register to use the "e-government" services, you have to physically go and register yourself for the service. That in itself seems to be rather self-defeating for errrr....an e-government based service. If registering yourself, you might as well ask at the office for the property record while you are there and then there's no need to register. I would have thought, simply paying (either at the office or online) with a debit/credit card was surely identity enough if anyone REALLY wanted to know who was looking at the records.

fluffy2560 wrote:

the bizarre bit here is that to register to use the "e-government" services, you have to physically go and register yourself for the service. That in itself seems to be rather self-defeating for errrr....an e-government based service.

Ah, well that topic (so call e-government based services) will send me into my own very verbose rant.... even more verbose than I am normally. So I better not go there.

I must say, I have been finding the e-government's quite good. But indeed, I needed to take the tram for 20 minutes to do it. Afaik it is a powerful tool, allowing to receive interact with the government in a wide range of topics from passport to taxes(!). I really would not want an easy sign-up procedure security wise!
The above suggested procedure involving plastic money seems not thought-through as the security aspect of this is in the hands of a bank (which is, of course, a very serious company - half my family is involved with their software-stuff which resulted in a... sobering picture), not under the control of the government. (another very serious organisation...)
That obviously does not mean that it cannot be further improved. Eg. in efficient Germany, the registration procedure for online-tax-declaration includes a snail-mail sent to your address (perhaps via the kind of letter for which the postman should-in theory-ID the recipient). It may not be the exact same level of security as showing your ID to a local government official, but one may argue that it suffices.

The argument that signing up in person is the same as as going there for each incident is not a valid one.

fireroller wrote:

The argument that signing up in person is the same as as going there for each incident is not a valid one.

Fluffy can correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the point was that tax payer funded government services such as access to property records should not necessarily require such a complicated procedure, or even one at all. Public records ideally should be public accessible. And having transparent access, such as property record information, improves the market environment. For example, I mentioned it varies between states in the USA. In fact, most (but not all) states there freely publish a great deal of information about any private property - last sale price, taxes paid, current owner, etc. etc. etc. Requiring someone to register for an access code to see such information is suspect -- that is more about monitoring users of the system than anything else.

And if I do not trust a company's security I can always go to a competitor company. Meanwhile, we are a captive audience with government e-services -- which is often built by the lowest bidder.

fireroller wrote:

The argument that signing up in person is the same as as going there for each incident is not a valid one.

It's not that. The chances of going there to look up a property record is probably very rare. Once in a blue moon. What I meant was that for the few times you want to see a property record, you might as well go there and find out as much as you can from any publicly accessible records and not to pay as much for the online access.

klsallee wrote:

Fluffy can correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the point was that tax payer funded government services such as access to property records should not necessarily require such a complicated procedure

I agree. I think the reason for charging is to try and recover the costs of operating the service from those that use it. I also think that lawyers and real estate agents want to maintain their specially privileged access and therefore can charge lots for the service. 

klsallee wrote:

And if I do not trust a company's security I can always go to a competitor company. Meanwhile, we are a captive audience with government e-services -- which is often built by the lowest bidder.

Misunderstanding of "fireroller". What I meant was that in accessing a public record, use of payment cards should be sufficient verification of someone's identity without the need for prior registration. If the goverment wants to know who was looking at the record, there should be sufficient traceability in the payment record via the issuing bank.

The problem in many countries is that it seems to be a good idea to control people's access to information and this instinct still seems to exist in Hungary in this case. There might be an issue regarding privacy in accessing property records but I think this is such a small point.

I should point out that in Austria, no prior registration is required to access property records (but there is a fee). The government there has contract service providers to provide online access. I don't think it's ideal there either but it's better than Hungary. You get prices paid, liens/mortgages as well in the property records.

e-government service can be useful and the signing up procedure... well for me it went straight for a friend of mine not so much. always depends with whom you have to deal in the gov office and how much he knows/wants what he is doing... same story with everything here basically. now finally after one year i could also change my personal details in the e-tax office system to match the details in the e-gov system so finally this year i dont have to send my tax report in hungary via post... but i have to say the software in germany is much better :p and i could also use it.

generally the mentality here can really get on your nerves when it comes to bureaucracy (not only limited to that). everything is minimum twice as complicated/complex as it would be needed. and to make it even more interesting the government often changes laws/regulations so basically the public here is kind of confused and not interested in it. if i ask my friends about how to do this and that they mostly dont have a clue which is kind of scary. keywords are : complicated, dont know, dont understand, or hungarian PARA