GRINGO GOUGING be part of the solution

Hi Mistymeaner,

The problem of "gringo gouging" is not unique to Ecuador by any means. All Latin-American countries indulge in this annoying practice and it is not about to end.

Trust me, I've been living in Brazil for over eleven years now and there are three prices for everything here (especially in tourist destinations) one price for local residents, another for Brazilian tourists and yet another for foreign tourists. In many locations here it's necessary to carry a utility bill with your name on it in order to prove you're a resident and not get overcharged.

This practice is not going away, no matter what you try to do and you'll only make yourself crazy if you think that you can change it. First of all, we gringos are all considered to be tourists, whether we live for prolonged periods in the country or not. The Latin-Americans have the impression that money grows on trees in foreign countries and thus we're all rich. There's no way to fight that, it's too deep rooted in them.

Second, you've got to remember largely these people are poorer than most of us are and are going to grab any opportunity that presents itself to make a few extra bucks, pesos or reais. They also couldn't give a rat's backside about your theory of educating them, showing them the error of their ways, how much they might lose. They have one simple and fool-proof answer for this... there will be another gringo walk through the door of their shop in fifteen minutes, and chances are they're right.

One thing they understand is CASH and another thing they understand in most cultures is the art of haggling. If you offer to pay cash and haggle a bit, which is part of THEIR culture, I'm sure you'll find that you will be able to get prices lowered in most cases and economize quite a bit.

Just remember exactly what Dorothy said..... "I don't think we're in Kansas anymore Toto."

Cheers,
William James Woodward - Brazil Animator, Expat-blog Team

Hi Mistymeaner,

The problem of "gringo gouging" is not unique to Ecuador by any means. All Latin-American countries indulge in this annoying practice and it is not about to end.

Trust me, I've been living in Brazil for over eleven years now and there are three prices for everything here (especially in tourist destinations) one price for local residents, another for Brazilian tourists and yet another for foreign tourists. In many locations here it's necessary to carry a utility bill with your name on it in order to prove you're a resident and not get overcharged.

This practice is not going away, no matter what you try to do and you'll only make yourself crazy if you think that you can change it. First of all, we gringos are all considered to be tourists, whether we live for prolonged periods in the country or not. The Latin-Americans have the impression that money grows on trees in foreign countries and thus we're all rich. There's no way to fight that, it's too deep rooted in them.

Second, you've got to remember largely these people are poorer than most of us are and are going to grab any opportunity that presents itself to make a few extra bucks, pesos or reais. They also couldn't give a rat's backside about your theory of educating them, showing them the error of their ways, how much they might lose. They have one simple and fool-proof answer for this... there will be another gringo walk through the door of their shop in fifteen minutes, and chances are they're right.

One thing they understand is CASH and another thing they understand in most cultures is the art of haggling. If you offer to pay cash and haggle a bit, which is part of THEIR culture, I'm sure you'll find that you will be able to get prices lowered in most cases and economize quite a bit.

Just remember exactly what Dorothy said..... "I don't think we're in Kansas anymore Toto."

Cheers,
William James Woodward - Brazil Animator, Expat-blog Team

Ecuadorian can loose 100$ trying to make an extra 10cents. I've seen it more than once. It's in their culture - no planing -. Just ask how much first. Checkmate.

Hey WJ. 😊

Jeeze well thanks for raining on my parade.  Heheheh. Truth is I have been able to haggle and use other methods to get prices lowered to acceptable amounts.  I accept that we will always pay more. However I do not accept that through ignorance of local market prices and culture that we should contribute to the problem and drive prices up even further and faster. 

Maybe it's a losing battle but I have always beleived that the buying public has a LOT more power than they seem to realize.  Unfortunately laziness is more abundant.  Take people who hate the Walmart culture but still shop there.  If no one shopped there what would happen?  Expats in South America are not going to stop needing food and shelter and aren't going to stop overpaying and being over charged.  I can't help but wonder what would happen if these same expats became more educated and started saying no to the locals who insist on taking advantage.

The locals are not stupid.  We reward their behaviour by giving into them and their price gouging.  They would quickly learn if we stopped. 

Your comment that the problem is not going away no matter what reminds me of the same sort of attitudes towards a number of issues back home.  We the victims.  The same old excuse that one person can't make a difference.  "What can I do?"  Take our environment for example.  If every household were to stop using detergents and changed over to all natural laundry soap what a difference that would make.  It's one little thing when taken on it's own but HUGE when taken as a whole.  We would see BIG changes. 

A change in the attitude that it is hopeless so why bother is just what is needed to initiate change.  If only one newbie expat has a change in behaviour that saves him or her on a rental or what have you then the ripple has begun and change has been made.  Like it or not the very fact that I posted about this topic will change something for someone.  Am I nit picking?  Perhaps but North American attitudes of helplessness against the machine are a pet peeve of mine. Consumers have power and LOTS of it if they come together.

To sit there and say it's useless is such a lazy stance.  I'm sorry but I just don't buy it.  Using your own logic that greed and money are motivators then how can one deny that the buying public has power to change things. Truth is I can't think of a more powerful group to initiate change than the ones with the money.  We act like we have no power when in truth we are lazy victims who have become comfortably numb in our stance and complacent attitude of WHAT CAN I DO?

While being poor is likely a huge motivator for the behaviour of some locals I've seen enough greed back in North America to know that being poor is only part of the problem.  They do it because they can.  They do it because we the helpless allow it.  They do it because we are complacent.  They do it because we set the example with our willingness and ignorance.  This is nothing more or less than a clear case of "If you don't set boundaries' someone else will!"  Way back when the first gringos started arriving with no idea about the marketplace or the culture they overpaid and the trend began.  Trends end when the buying public stops buying.  Can one person accomplish this.....heck no.....can a buying public intiate change....hell yeah!

I don't know what the answer is but I do know that to do nothing is not going to help.  If by posting tips, warnings or sharing experiences I am able to help one person not get ripped off then that is something in my book.  Imagine what a lot of somethings that could be if every expat came together and stuck toghether like the Latin Americans have in their attitudes. 

You clearly have much more experience than I when it comes to Latin American culture.  All I know for certain is that if we don't stop doing what we are doing we are going to get more of what we got.  Some out there are paying way too much and driving the prices way up and the result is bad for Ecuadorians and North Americans alike.  Acceptance of the practice is one way of dealing with it.  It's just not mine.

Have a good one! 😀

If my business in the U.S. charged higher prices to people of color, what would I be called? A racist? A bigot, perhaps?

I'm not sure why it's any different in this situation.

BrandonBP wrote:

If my business in the U.S. charged higher prices to people of color, what would I be called? A racist? A bigot, perhaps?

I'm not sure why it's any different in this situation.

Because it's their country. Different rules. They can pretty much do whatever they want. You have the choice of accepting the culture, or not, but it's not going to change, or at least not anytime soon.
You must realize it's South America, and you can not think of it as North America. To be honest, that is one of my primary reasons for me leaving the US., too many regulations and to much of a Big Brother mentality.
You mention running a business? How sweet would it be if you could actually hire whom you thought was the best fit the position, and not worry about being sued?
Brandon, every day, we hear how intrusive government is getting. It's a totally different playing field in Ecuador.
Good Luck Amigo!

BrandonBP wrote:

If my business in the U.S. charged higher prices to people of color, what would I be called? A racist? A bigot, perhaps?

I'm not sure why it's any different in this situation.

It's not any different in this situation, they are being racists and bigots, but it is merely the charm of hundreds of years of culture.  There are no laws against any kind of discrimination in Ecuador, they can build a housing development and say No Gringos and no one is going to lift a finger to help you.  I've heard it said living in Ecuador reminds people of the 1950's in the USA.  They fail to mention that the civil rights are very similar.  So you get to be a black American retiring to 1954 Alabama.  If in the greater Cuenca area, which seems to have the largest expat population, the expats are about 1% of the population, how can they have such a great influence on inflation and the economy?  It appears the problem is that too many expats did not intend to retire so they could spend their time haggling prices and searching for the cheapest fruit in town.  Maybe they have better things to do with their lives than spending their waking hours trying to understand the culture of ripping people off.  Why did anyone expect it to be otherwise?

Mistymeaner, BrandonBP, Mugtech and other,

I guess that you're all relative newcomers to Latin-America/South America and you really don't have a grasp of South American mentality. South Americans completely lack VISION, to them a long-range plan is something for next month.

Knock yourselves out if you think anything you do is going to change their absence of foresight and that you're going to be able to educate them into understanding that they're cutting their own throats with their pricing practices. They can't see beyond the dollar sign.

I've been here over eleven years now, knew about the culture before I came here and didn't waste unnecessary time trying to change it, but rather tried to adapt myself to it. In all that time I've never seen Brazilians change their pricing habits regardless of how much some of their gringo customers here have complained, or that they never come back, or the fact that Brazil has the strictest Consumer Protection Code in South America.

Welcome to the real world guys, I'm sure once you've been around the block a few times you'll find that I'm talking from experience and you'll accept that you can reduce your costs by haggling prices, but you ain't gonna change the world - NO WAY. But, if you like being Crusaders, what the heck, knock yourselves out.

I think you've all got to understand that what you are talking about is part of your Culture Shock. You've got to remember first of all, you're not back home, things aren't the same as back home and never will be. You can't think that something that works on first world people will even come close to working with those who aren't. When in Rome, guys.... when in Rome!

Cheers,
William James Woodward - Brazil Animator, Expat-blog Team

I have to agree.  There is an element of bigotry to the behaviour.  We've taught them well.  We did this.  For years we have been coming here knowing nothing of the market place and making mistakes.  We are paying for our ignorance.

It may never change but one thing I am CERTAIN of is that it will NEVER change if we choose complacency or acceptance as a way to deal or not deal with it.

I have no problem with this choice BUT don't let me hear you complain about gringo gouging.  Heheheh

Chronic health issues kept me from having any assemblance of a good, well funded life.  I'm well versed in doing things on the cheap. For some of us retirement here is as much about survival as it is anything else.  I'm just happy to have enough food to eat and if it means having to do some legwork to save money then that is what it means.  If being savvy and saving on rent means I might be able to do something nice for myself like health and dental care that I haven't been able to do for decades back home then that is what it means.  It's not the same experience for all of us and many are coming here because we were literally starving back home.

MUGTECH if you are wondering how 1% of the population can have such an effect on the economy or inflation maybe it's time you got yourself out here. If it can happen in one direction and make no mistake it is happening then it can happen in the other direction. If nothing else there are those of us that can't sit by and watch the well off or lazy expats continue to drive the prices up.  For example.  I found out recently that the apartment I rented this past March went for $300.00 a month to the previous tenant and according to the Ecuadorian realtor who had this knowledge that is all the apartment is worth.  I believe her and suspected we had paid to much.  We are paying 400.00 and are under lease until the end of August.  There was no getting the price reduced and we needed a place so we took it.  The landlord is running an ad for the apartment and is now asking 450.00 a month. She has done nothing to warrant any of these price hikes.  She will wait for an uneducated gringo to give her 150.00 a month over what the apartment is worth and make no mistake.....one of us will give it to her.  No influence on the economy or inflation.....wake up!

"MAYBE THEY HAVE BETTER THINGS TO DO WITH THIER LIVES THAN  WASTING THEIR WAKING HOURS TRYING TO UNDERSTAND THE CULTURE OF RIPPING PEOPLE OFF."  Tell me why do you think the locals take advantage???????  It's really not that hard to understand.  Surely in a moment of clarity you could figure this out.  I understand that it is way easier to blame others than to take responsibility but it has always taken two to tango.

You can fire off excuse after excuse but the truth is we brought this on ourselves.  There are reasons they do this and there are reasons they think it's ok and I can guarantee that we are in there somewhere. 

All I know for certain is that  I HAVE managed to get fair pricing on food and cabs and rent is my next goal.  I just cannot afford to be taken advantage of on a financial level.  I came here to have a better quality of life and that is directly proportionate to finances.   It's taken some time and yes some education and some mistakes but it's just not in me to be complacent, place blame elsewhere and support this sort of behaviour.  Call it what you want if a label makes you feel better, sit in your armchair in another country and pass uneducated judgements, come here and cry that you dislike the practice but are helpless.  As for me I just do not like being overcharged and will do my best to at least stop it in my world....one cabbie at a time....one vendor at a time.....one landlord at a time.

I certainly hear what you guys are saying, and as a capitalist and libertarian, I fully agree. That is also the exact reason reason I am shopping for a new country in which to live. I actually LIKE the fact that Latin countries advertise in the newspaper "Airline is looking for young, thin, attractive females for flight attendant positions." Try that crap in the USA. Hell, you can't even own a bar anymore and decide whether you want to let customers smoke cigarettes in YOUR bar. The Latin countries don't interfere with a lot of nitpicky crap to make everyone conform to their version of morality and equality.

But I still think it's a jackass thing to do to charge a certain race of people a different price. It may be a cultural thing, but I still think it's bigoted. I would never, as a libertarian, ask the government to step in and enforce price controls. I'd rather deal with being gouged before I ever asked the government to use their guns and their violence to enforce those types of rules. But there has to be some other way to combat this sort of thing on a personal level. I agree with you guys that it is indeed an odd way of thinking when you offer to do business with only one merchant if the merchant simply agrees not to screw you, and they still decline. Most Westerners would jump at that offer. "So, you will spend $50 a week here if I just offer you the price I would offer anyone else? Sure, man! That rocks!" 

I do think it's great that you guys are discussing this. I think there's a solution somewhere. It may even be a fairly simple one that just needs to be mulled over. But sharing information is a great way to get things done, and I'll be watching this thread to see what you guys come up with.

Addendum: Have any of you tried getting together on your purchases? Like if 5 Americans went to one vendor and pledged to do business solely with him/her. And then the group also promised to spread the word and send other Gringos to them for the same fair prices. It seems that at some point, some merchant somewhere in town would think, "Man, this is a great boon for me. If I can get all the Gringo business, then I'm gonna make a lot of money."

Just a thought...

Hey William.

As I believe I mentioned early in the initial post it is abundantly clear to me that changing or educating locals is futile.  Honestly I thought that it possible to help gringos see their part in the problem.  However that is proving challenging as well.  Heheheeh 

You seem to have yourself convinced that you are helpless.  Today my partner accompanied a friend of ours for some appliance shopping.  Long story short my partner spoke up about the pricing and was able to the surprise of the interpreter save hundreds of dollars.  We do it back home, why are we afraid to speak out against high or over pricing here???????

Not looking to change the world William.....certainly do not have the energy for that but would appreciate changing mine to the tune of dollars that I just can't afford to toss away because someone is telling me it is futile and to accept what can't be changed.  Just being here and learning more about the culture and speaking out has saved me money and changed my situation.  I realize that for most people these issues are not an issue......but again for some of us saving money dictates the quality of life we might be able to have here. 

Have a good one!

Latin countries are placing those bigoted ads???????  Sorry just had to throw that in.  Don't they know that a lot of men like fat bottomed or full figured women????  What about those poor guys?  What no eye candy for them?????  Isn't that sort of discriminatory????  Hehehehe

I totally agree with your second paragraph.  This is not an issue that needs any government intervention.  It was created by individuals and can be improved upon by individuals and time.  It will take time.

Gotta say I agree with your third paragraph as well.  Maybe it's optimistic but look at Cuenca before Independent Living named it the number one place to retire only a few short years ago.  Up until then Cuenca looked and smelled like pretty much every other city in Ecuador.  They quickly turned things around here because they were motivated.  There is no motivation to offer us fair pricing because there are ten more expats behind us that are willing to overpay and localsnlack the vision or the concern about possible future ramifications.  Our education is the key.  If I knew when I landed what I know now I would not have made mistakes that in the end hurt us all and I am only one person. We have all done it!!!!! That is a huge message to Ecuadorians about us.  We are rich and dumb....too ignorant and lazy to inform ourselves about the market place amoungst other things.

As for your addendum it's funny you should bring that up. My partner and  I have been discussing just that sort of thing.  Some way to motivate the locals to be fair with us and we believe it can be done.  It will only take one vendor, one landlord etc. to get the ball rolling and as I mentioned in my first post the other vendors at the market who see us doing business to the tune of 20-25.00 a week with the same vendor are watching closely.  These are not stupid people and yes cash and money talk to them, like most cultures.  I do believe it is worth a try.  It's that or I start growing my own food which is something I have been considering as well.  The first gringa Mercado vendor!  Heheheeh

Mistymeaner wrote:

Latin countries are placing those bigoted ads???????  Sorry just had to throw that in.  Don't they know that a lot of men like fat bottomed or full figured women????  What about those poor guys?  What no eye candy for them?????  Isn't that sort of discriminatory????  Hehehehe

I used to have a job where I flew around all the time. I happened to notice an ad like that once in El Salvador or somewhere similar and I pointed it out to my travel buddy. He was first generation American with Mexican parents. He said, "Dude, have you not ever noticed how much hotter the stewardesses are on Taca and the other Latin airlines? There ain't no EEO agency in Mexico, man!"

I had to agree. There was a huge difference. Besides looks, the Latin airline flight attendants were also younger and more eager to make the flight more pleasant for the customer. They were youthful go-getters. Delta, American, and all the other US airlines tend to have a bunch of overpaid, self important, aging,  snooties that don't care much about their travelers. I'm speaking in generalities, of course. Some of the old fat ladies on U.S. airlines are quite pleasant.

Now I'm gonna go make some popcorn and come back to see how many people are mad that I talked about old fat ladies.

Regarding William's comment that: "South Americans completely lack VISION, to them a long-range plan is something for next month" -- I think that might be a Spanish colonial mindset, since the same is very true here in the Philippines. I could go on at length about some of their insane business practices, most of which involve failure to think beyond today, but this is not a Philippine forum. However, I'll mention that the variant pricing is very much practiced here, with some places openly posting 'foreigner' prices.

As for Misty's suggestion -- I do what she suggests to some degree. I don't let the variant pricing drive me nuts, and I pick my fights.

Example: I don't usually accept the first price offered in marketplaces, because that isn't the way the market is set up. I understand that the buyer is expected to haggle a bit (my late wife was Filipina, and she got a great kick out of haggling). However, if the street vendor says ten pesos for a banana and I get the price down to eight, I'm not going to lose any sleep over the fact that a better haggler (or a local) might have gotten away with seven.

Larger purchases (like rent) obviously are worth a lot more haggling. Misty's 'one-price' offer is a good idea.

As an aside: I got over-priced on my first apartment here. But it wasn't a Filipino landlord -- it's a fellow expat. Charging whatever the market will allow is just good common sense on the part of the seller. I agree with Misty that taking reasonable steps to get the price down makes just as much sense for buyers.

Thanks Bob!

I was starting to feel a bit lonely in here.

Yes getting what the market will bare makes just as much sense as trying to save money and get the price reduced. It also makes sense to know the market and what it will bare. Not what we THINK is a good price compared to back home but what the going price is here. Without this information it is only a matter of time before accumulated mistakes will affect market prices.  It's happening already.

Is it possible that our culture is just not use to haggling?  Let's face it for the most part we don't do a lot of bargaining. We go to the store and pay the price on the sticker. If we don't like the price we try another store.

Yet we won't do that here????  Walk away. Say no. Tell them it's overpriced. Shop elsewhere. That alone sends a message and when that vendor sees you going back again and again to the vendor next door who was fair do you really think they don't get it?  I see it on the faces of the vendors at the market. The ones we walk past every week to go to the one who is fair. Trust me they get it. They are counting their losses.

I really do not know the answer and yes picking ones battles is smart. All I know for certain is that I personally am not in the position to overpay for anything.

Being an informed consumer is IMO still the best way to save on purchases and not be taken advantage of and this goes for every market place the world over.

It also seems to me that perspective is needed. Take the example of how paying gringo prices for fruits and veggies amounted to an estimated 3-400.00 additional cost for me and my partner per year. Break that down to hours one has or had to work for that, time that you could be spending some other way and well again I just can't buy into the whole IT'S THE WAY IT IS SO JUST ACCEPT IT philosophy. Personally I had to work very hard for the money I earned. I just can't afford that attitude.

Take care. 😊

In beginning to understand the South American mindset one must first understand the history of the various South American nations and how it is so radically diferent from what we're used to back home.

We've been spoiled. We come from countries where government works for the people, not the other way around. Governments are far less intrusive in the lives of the citizens. Things work the way they're supposed to and we see concrete returns, in terms of services, for every penny we pay in taxes. It's never been like that in South America, anywhere.

Most of the countries here have suffered under dictatorships at one time or another, there are mountains of absurd and suffocating bureaucracy, government unnecessarily complicates the lives of the average citizens rather than facilitating it. South American governments have purposely kept their populations ignorant and uneducated as a means of controlling them.

It's almost impossible to think globally, to get the big picture if you face so many hardships locally that you can't even think of focusing further than your own city limits. We as foreigners even if we were to band together all across South America as one unit can do nothing to change that history, it comes from early colonization.

When the only thing you can think of is yourself, your family and how you're going to keep food on the table and a roof over their heads it's very easy to see us foreigners as a viable source of income, especially when they've all grown up with the understanding that the streets are paved with gold where we come from.

I don't think any of it is bigotry, nor ignorance, but rather simple survival and in their simple concept of things just mathematics.

I started out just like you guys, worried about getting overcharged, injustices that I perceived because I was a foreigner. The more I understood of the culture and history the more my ideas changed, the more I understood that I had to adapt since I couldn't change hundreds of years of history or an entire culture. I started doing things like a Brazilian, and found my life much less complicated and learned how to get the best deals possible for everything I need.

I also learned that nobody appointed me as guardian for the rights of all my fellow gringos. Nowadays I look after me and let the other guys look after themselves. I'm no longer plagued by some sense of injustice that I can't do anything to change anyway. When I did that I found that I began loving it here much more than before. Brazil has problems coming out it's ears, but I wouldn't change where I am for all the tea in China.

Try it, you'll like it I'm sure.

Cheers,
William James Woodward - Brazil Animator, Expat-blog Team

wjwoodward wrote:

We've been spoiled. We come from countries where government works for the people, not the other way around. Governments are far less intrusive in the lives of the citizens. Things work the way they're supposed to and we see concrete returns, in terms of services, for every penny we pay in taxes. It's never been like that in South America, anywhere.

WJ,

With all due respect to you, good sir, I disagree. If you think the U.S government leaves you alone and lets you live freely, then you have a different experience with the U.S. government than I do.

The U.S. government that I know took over $33,000 a year out of my paycheck the last few years of my career. That doesn't include state income tax, 7% sales tax, or the 23% imbedded tax on everything you purchase in the US due to the 45% corporate tax rate. That 45% corporate tax, the highest in the world, also drives many corporations overseas which causes Americans to have no job opportunities whatsoever. Mixed with the NSA reading every single e-mail, Facebook post, and phonecall made by any citizen, I have a very difficult time understanding how South American governments are somehow more intrusive into their citizens lives.

When it's a crime in South America to smoke a cigarette on the beach or wear your pants in a certain fashion, or to go to jail for not wearing a seat belt or gamble online or use ephedrine or buy contact lenses without a prescription, then I might agree with you that it's as fascist as the USA. But as I see it, there's a hell of a lot more freedom down in Ecuador than it is in the U.S. Why does the USA have 25% of the world's prison population? Am I to believe that Americans are more prone to criminal behavior than the rest of the world? Or is it because the USA has millions of criminal laws? The federal criminal code alone has over 27,000 pages. Combine that with 50 state criminal codes and all of the city and county ordinances. No wonder there are 2.3 million Americans in prison. What can you do anymore that isn't against the law in the USA? 

But America is the Land of the Free, isn't it? Fox News and the U.S. government say that's why the terrorists hate us, so it must be true.

The point is that Ecuador is the way it is, not gonna change any time soon, and if you gonna live in Ecuador then you need to accept the fact that as a gringo you will be treated differently.  Thinking you gonna change it is kidding yourself and insulting the locals.

Buenos Dias William.

I totally agree with you that North Americans are spoiled. I am Canadian and like to think that Americans are more spoiled than us but frankly who can tell the difference between us anymore. 😱

As for your comments on government I could not disagree more. Clearly you have never been or worked in the big machine. While our government is not quite as paranoid as yours  to say that things work and our government is less intrusive is an opinion I don't share. You've been away too long.  Hehehe

I've had to rely on the government for help surviving over a large portion of my lifetime. I'm quite familiar with the workings of the machine from a different perspective than yours.

Yes we have nice streets and sidewalks. Things LOOK good but there are many problems within our system and honestly from where I sit your description of NAmerican government is some sort of fantasy. To think that many of us are not held down, treated poorly and don't struggle for the things others take for granted like enough food, affordable housing, decent and regular health care is a testament to the privileged experience you have been lucky enough to have.  Something I did not personally experience and I dealt with government on a regular basis for a very long time. Try talking to the chronically ill or challenged individual about how they are treated by the machine and get back to me. It's such a great system that it is my hope to be able to stay here and not ever have to deal with it again. Talk about oppression for our sick and less fortunate. Don't even get me started on the number of poorly educated minorities who fight your governments wars and give their lives for goals few can fully comprehend!

I really have NO desire to change history or change Ecuadorians. I really thought I made that quite clear in my initial post. In fact I don't even think it is them that needs changing. I see no harm in trying to not be taken advantage of to whatever degree I can accomplish that and I see nothing wrong with wanting to help people....other than the fact that it brings me joy and makes me feel good so it's a bit selfish.

William what we are talking about here is doing exactly what you have done and learned over the years. Finding solutions or ways to minimize the overcharging. You did it alone and without any help or advice by the sounds of it. You do not want to be anyone's guardian and your attitude is every man for himself. To be honest it is a prevalent NA attitude and one I am happy to leave behind. 

However you claim to not want to play guardian and yet here you are telling us to give up?????  William no offense but why would an EVERY MAN FOR HIMSELF individual like yourself care what we do or don't do, accomplish or don't accomplish and so on. I am confused here.

Honestly I think this is your way of helping. Talk to any successful individual. You know the greats who changed our world and you will not hear the behaviors and attitudes found here. Will I give up trying to save money?  I doubt it. Will I stop sharing my finds if I think they might help someone else have an easier time of things?  I doubt that too.

To be clear when I talk of change I am NOT referring to changing locals. I am referring to a change in OUR attitudes towards them.  However if or when we change they will change. There is just no way around it William 

HOWEVER......

Change takes time. Lots and lots of time. Its not for everyone. The average North American has little to no patience. They are used to getting what they want when they want it and have a tantrum when things don't go fast enough for them. While ten years is a long time to be here and granted you have more time in than us newbies..I'll give you that, it seems you are unable to grasp just how slow people are to change. It may take decades and frankly I think it will but one thing I am certain of change does not come from the lone wolf, give it up attitude you are pushing. Look back over our own history and how attitudes have changed all across the board and don't sit there and tell me things don't or won't change. Whether you like it or not things all around you are changing and will continue to do so whether you are aware of it or not. You can't stop change William. The very fact that we are coming to their  country has already started the process of change. It's going to happen, it is happening. The question is in what way do you want to help direct the change? 

Try accepting change, it's scary, I get it, change is uncertain but hey you might like it! Hehehe

Maybe I am looking at things the wrong way, but when I consider living in another country, I consider the added costs of what gringos have to pay regarding the cost to live there, and I also look at the crimes against expats, because some locals feel they can afford to lose what they  take.  Having to replace those items also costs money, back to the cost to live there.
I would love to move to a different country for many reasons, but if I can't afford it because of gringo prices and having to replace stuff; that makes a difference to me.
I understand why the have not take from the haves, and don't think about the harm it does to their community. If I was poor and had a family, my values would change real quick too. That's where the government in those countries needs to step in and do something to change things.  They are the one's that should have the vision that the individual doesn't. Everyone would benefit, including the locals in the long run if they were more proactive in this problem.  Future expats will stay away from any country where the criminal justice system allows these things to happen, and are often part of the problem.

One thing we seem to agree on completely Mistymeaner is that change takes time. The kind of change in the South American mindset you're talking about may come one day, but I doubt that it will take place in my lifetime. You can't change 500 plus years of culture overnight for sure.

I've not completely lost touch with Canada. I too deal with the Canadian government on a frequent basis and also have a very elderly and handicapped mother still living in Richmond, BC who is exclusively dependent upon Social Services for her ongoing care. I've never found the system intrusive in any way and quite to the contrary quite caring about those with special needs. I recently had a social worker phone from Richmond just to give me an update on my mother's health situation and living conditions, which was quite appreciated.

I deal with the Canada Pension plan, Service Canada and the Canada Revenue Agency all the time, no bureaucracy, no hassle and can resolve any kind of problems that I have over the phone on their dime. What more can one expect? God, here in Brazil people have to go to all out battle in order to secure their rights. I certainly can't say that the Canadian government complicates my life in any way, quite the opposite in fact. I sure can't say the same thing for the Brazilian government.

Cheers,
William James Woodward - Brazil Animator, Expat-blog Team

palmtree22 wrote:

Maybe I am looking at things the wrong way, but when I consider living in another country, I consider the added costs of what gringos have to pay regarding the cost to live there, and I also look at the crimes against expats, because some locals feel they can afford to lose what they  take.  Having to replace those items also costs money, back to the cost to live there.
I would love to move to a different country for many reasons, but if I can't afford it because of gringo prices and having to replace stuff; that makes a difference to me.
I understand why the have not take from the haves, and don't think about the harm it does to their community. If I was poor and had a family, my values would change real quick too. That's where the government in those countries needs to step in and do something to change things.  They are the one's that should have the vision that the individual doesn't. Everyone would benefit, including the locals in the long run if they were more proactive in this problem.  Future expats will stay away from any country where the criminal justice system allows these things to happen, and are often part of the problem.

It's all part of the illusion that it is so much cheaper to live in third world countries.  People tell you how low the taxes are, don't bother telling you that the services you are used to are lousy or non-existent.  A lot of the freedom you have in such places is due to lack of law enforcement.  No intrusive laws telling you how much noise you can make, but then the local church gets to make as much noise as it likes whenever it likes to call God's attention to their church.  And anyone who complains about the noise or tries to change it is being culturally or religiously intolerant.  You may not partake of the freedom of public drunkenness and public urination, but you better get used to others taking advantage of such a cherished freedom while the cops see nothing.  In the end it boils down to are you willing to trade what you have elsewhere for what Ecuador provides today?  And you better make the comparisons to yourself while you are gathering info or making exploratory trips, because once you decide to move to Ecuador you already know the list of things you must accept, not wasting time and effort comparing Ecuador to other places.

Hey William.

I really find myself wondering what any of this has to do with sharing tips and ideas for saving money and/or reducing overcharging.

Also I will say it again. I am not looking or hoping to change South American mindset. Again I'm pretty darn sure I mention that very early in the original post. Clearly I am not alone in having comprehension issues. Hehehe

As for your experience with Cdn. government I am happy you have had good experiences and very happy for your Mom even though I strongly suspect that things are not golden for her unless she has been or is getting additional financial support from some other source.

Admittedly BC is a very tolerant, accepting and compassionate province. That being said I met many people there who struggled for years to get help caring for thier severely disabled family members. I lived in a 1986 travel trailer there on other people's land working when I should have been resting because all the government would give me was just over two hundred dollars a month. This was not in the 50's this was two years ago!  I wasn't alone out there William. Many of us end up out there because if you are forced to live marginally or on the streets due to chronic illness and the great care in Canada BC has locales where the weather is more forgiving than most of Canada. BC has learned tolerance because it's had to. CHANGE!

Unfortunately I have not had the same experience you have had. Yes I have met a few very caring government employees, ok I met one in BC but honestly the system didn't work for me and I know several people back home for whom the system is still not working for them or for thier ill family members.

The sick in Canada are also the poor in Canada.  I lived marginally there for decades William. Reduced to living in the worst parts of town or in leaking, moldy old trailers not having enough food to eat and going far too long without dental care, supplements and other necessities that would make life a wee bit better and less painful.

Often I found myself contemplating crime. My thought was that at least in jail I wouldn't have to worry about a roof over my head and food to eat. So frankly while yes things appear nice on the surface, we have nice roads with no potholes and nice ladies who call you and tell you your Mom is doing great we have individuals who would rather see a few potholes not filled so we could get some health care and be able to live half decent lives.

Talk to me when you have been faced with free dental care in BC. When you have just heard that they cannot fill the cavity but only pull the tooth because it is the cheaper alternative.  Such a little thing William but do you know what it's like to be beaten down like this year after year, decade after decade??? Living marginally, looking for food in garbage cans, losing teeth to free dental care, working when we need to be resting, being judged on our marginal lifestyles and being mistreated by doctors, landlords and government workers. Not because we are ignorant, uneducated or lazy but because those same people think we are when in reality we are ill.

Frankly William you take your assuring phone calls....oh my I was about to be quite rude. I apologize but I am upset. I have lived the life, been in the system, fought for years with energy I did not have so I could get enough disability income to support a very marginal subsistence.  Basically one small step above living on the streets!

William DEALING with the system and living within it are two entirely different things. Be thankful you are healthy enough to never have had to find out.

Anyways I started the thread as a way to maybe come together and share ideas for possibly minimizing the personal financial effects of overpricing. Other than one idea from one member and a supportive response from another the responses have not been all that positive or helpful. Several reminded me why I left my homeland.

However that one idea did spark more conversation between my partner and I and we have come up with a very solid model that once implemented will allow us to have a positive effect on pricing for expats here in Cuenca.

William it's good to hear that you feel your Mother is getting good care on Social Assistance. How that can be when the math just doesn't support it is beyond me but great to hear and I'm sure those calls go a long way to alleviate any guilt or concerns you may have. A success story. I don't hear them very often.  In fact you may be the first!!

Thanks to the few positive contributors.

Carmen 😊

Trying to change the culture of another country is the absolute height of US arrogance. Either try to fit in or move.
Complaining about a $400 apartment is ridiculous. The same place in NYC would cost $4000 a month.
I really dislike expats who refuse they now live in a 3rd world country. So spoiled.

Morgie wrote:

Trying to change the culture of another country is the absolute height of US arrogance. Either try to fit in or move.
Complaining about a $400 apartment is ridiculous. The same place in NYC would cost $4000 a month.
I really dislike expats who refuse they now live in a 3rd world country. So spoiled.

You know what I really dislike? Someone who tells others "You must think like me or get out of this country." Now that's aogance.

I really think it is time to change thee subject, enough already kids

Mistymeaner,
I have been following this thread for the past few days, and I want to applaud your resolve, and what you are trying to accomplish, but most importantly, the humanitarian reasons for your taking on this issue. It's refreshing to see someone trying to accomplish something for the good of the whole.
In the success of any endeavor, it always requires someone to think outside of the box, and not accept the status quo.
We all know the Wright Brothers were considered insane to think humans would take to the sky's, yet, in a relatively short period of time, we put a man on the moon!
Who-da-thunk it? Mayhaps gringos in the future will get a square deal at the market place due to your not accepting change can't happen.
Perhaps we will meet some day at one of the markets.... it's not that big of a city. I'll have you negotiate for me! < smile >
Thanks for your efforts and good intentions!
Be Well,
Neil

While I might word it differently, I agree with Morgie's sentiment. Negotiating for purchases is common in Ecuador and much of Latin America. It is only the uninformed that do not recognize this and adapt to the local market.

Don't take it personally or be offended because you pay more than others. It is probably the result of your inability to speak the language in order to haggle as others including locals have been doing for the 43 years I have been traveling to Ecuador. (I still recall my now wife refusing to purchase a $250 carpet over a $3 price difference.)

From my experience I find it best to establish a relationship with one or two suppliers. Ask their name and treat them with respect and with a smile. Tell them what you are looking for (oranges imported from Chile; Avocados that will be ripe in two days; corn in season, etc.) and ask when is the best time and days to shop at their location. Within a short time you understand when certain products are in season, what the market price is for those products and local venders understand your shopping habits. For example, my fruit and vegetable supplier's name is Yolanda, her husband restocks her stand at 7AM, her son works the stand with her on weekends, I buy Oranges from Chile, seasonal strawberries, large undamaged bananas, and corn with smaller kernels. I will pay higher than market price but insist on all products being fresh so Yolanda warms me when her selection is not up to my expectations. Also, when I ask in advance, she will have her husband pick up a specific item from the central market that I want. Fruit and vegetable shopping is a pleasure with no surprises or disagreements.

Learn the language and how your adopted country works then adapt a strategy that gets you what you want within market conditions. This is probably a more realistic approach vs trying to change the market to fit your demands.

Hey Nemesis,

Are you Canadian? If you are where did you come?

Are you living there full time now & where?

Kurt  From  Ontario,CANADA

Now if we just knew where to find the Yolandos of Cuenca we would be much closer to the goal of the initial post which quite frankly few seem to have understood which was to find ways and alternative ideas to help those of us who cannot afford to pay more than we have to save money and avoid being over charged.

Thanks Zen.

Honestly if I could have foreseen that the bulk of the responses were going to be so far off the original goal I would have never started it.

It's been a learning experience for certain. One thing I've learned is many not only hear what they want to hear they read what they want to read.

No matter some good did come out of it and I do feel that with some luck I will be able to make a difference for those expats who prefer to not be overcharged.

Change history.....no. Change the culture....no. BUT that was not the goal!!!!  Very frustrating to say the least.

LOL.

Have a good one!

Learn the language and how your adopted country works then adapt a strategy that gets you what you want within market conditions. This is probably a more realistic approach vs trying to change the market to fit your demands.

THANK YOU FOR SUMMING IT UP!  I could not have said it better and apparently didn't!!  😝

Morgie.

Thanks so much for the laugh!  Much appreciated.

Spoiled is not a word I would use to describe why I find myself having to be very careful and cautious with money. Nor is ridiculous.

Thank you for yet another reminder of why I left.

Morgie wrote:

Trying to change the culture of another country is the absolute height of US arrogance. Either try to fit in or move.
Complaining about a $400 apartment is ridiculous. The same place in NYC would cost $4000 a month.
I really dislike expats who refuse they now live in a 3rd world country. So spoiled.

This is by far the most laughable post I've yet to see on this forum. You obviously can not follow what is being said. For you to compare " a 3rd world country " to a NYC apartment, the most expensive real estate in the US, is totally ludacris.
Last I checked, Mistymeaner is in Ecuador, living the life of an expat, not in Florida, making remarks that they have zero personal experience with.
Ps.
She ain't from the US either. Read the thread!

Mistymeaner wrote:

. .

It's been a learning experience for certain. One thing I've learned is many not only hear what they want to hear they read what they want to read. 
Have a good one!

Misty, your message is clear: You feel you and other "gringos" are being discriminated against and ridiculed by the "gouging Ecuadorians" because you are "white". I believe you are misinterpreting how the local market works.

Venders try to sell their product for the highest price possible which I am sure you can appreciate. If they don't know you they increase the price 50%. Tell them you purchased it for half that price last week (also a lie) and they reduce the price 20%. Offer 50% of that price or what you think is fair and you may have a deal. Like buying a house or car in the USA only you do it for most things in Ecuador including fruits and vegetables. Get accustomed to the process and you may start to enjoy the haggling.

Ecuadorian women shoppers are experts in the system. Watch them in action and you may feel sorry for the "gouging" sellers. Most men, Ecuadorian and "gringos", don't have the patience and accept a higher price to get on with life.

Morgie wrote:

Trying to change the culture of another country is the absolute height of US arrogance.

I can agree that people left their country of origin because they wanted to experience something new, so why try to change your new community into the same place that you fled? I think it's sort of an arrogant attitude to move somewhere new and say, "This isn't how we did things back home. We need to change the system and make it more like the U.S."

However, merely wanting not to be ripped off and treated differently for being a foreigner isn't out of line. Simply asking for the same treatment and prices that everyone else gets is perfectly legitimate and is in no way asking anyone to change their culture. Foreigners immigrating to a new land should indeed assimilate into their new communities. It's respectful and polite to honor the people you've chosen to make as your new neighbors by adapting to their way of life. But assimilating isn't one-sided. Assimilating not only means to adapt to the local customs and laws, it also means being assimilated INTO the community by being treated equally as a neighbor and not differently as an outsider.

"Ecuadorian women shoppers are experts in the system. Watch them in action and you may feel sorry for the "gouging" sellers. Most men, Ecuadorian and "gringos", don't have the patience and accept a higher price to get on with life."

I'm afraid I fall into this category. I was appliance shopping, and the fellow that was helping me, an ex pat that is a very good negotiator, felt I could get a better deal yet than the one I had after visiting like 5 stores that day. I just felt beat up, and felt the store owner I finally came back to ( the first visited that day ) came as close as he was going to, and I purchased. Would an Ecuadorian woman have paid what I did? Not a doubt in my mind she would have fared much better than myself.
BUT.... while I don't like paying more than I have to, some are in the position that they absolutely can't.
In the end, I guess we all do as well as we can, and I have already excepted the fact I'm always going to pay more.
But, I do agree with Misytmeaners initial post. There is absolutely no reason we shouldn't attempt to change the landscape, no matter how long it may take.
Stay Well,
Neil

It seems that everyone in this thread is assuming it is true that gringos are charged more in Ecuador. In my experience,that is only true where there are lots of gringos; Cuenca, Quito, Vilcabamba, and perhaps Guayaquil, with little understanding of Ecuadorian culture. I should state that my only experience of any depth is in Loja and Zaruma. Also, I have never met or talked with a single gringo in Ecuador other than what I write on this blog. I am completely immersed in this culture.

I do not find gringo pricing in either Loja or Zaruma. Of course,this is just one person's experience. Buying for me begins first by creating relationships. For example, if I buy in the daily marketplace, I go with someone who goes there often and has chosen which vendors they prefer. I am introduced and follow the pattern of consistently using that vendor. This results in consistent quality and consistent pricing; never gouging. But that introduction is critical.

If I want a bigger ticket item, I ask where the best place to make that purchase is. I am told and often either introduced, or told to say *person's name* sent me. I have never had a problem even though, as soon as I open my mouth, it is clear I am a gringo. I look around me and see that this is how essentially everyone here does business. A lot of things in Ecuador revolve around relationships and there is really no way around this other than honoring the culture as it is.

If you don't understand this, or find this a challenge (which is certainly understandable and not a criticism) the problem is still a lack of grasping the culture and not a "fault" of the Ecuadorians. All cultures operate this way. To call them bigots is extremely offensive to me because not only is it not true, but it is a false argument. There are certainly Ecuadorians whom I would not trust, and who are best avoided. But, that is not the norm. My experience is that Ecuadorians are the easiest people in the world to work with. If your are part of a family or a close group, the level of cooperation and support is beyond anything I have experienced in North American and a few other countries.

On the issue of gringos causing huge price hikes: Yes, I don't doubt that is a factor, but maybe less than may be obvious. Someone just moved out of an apartment that was costing $180 in Loja. The landlord in now offering that apartment for $200. I am pretty certain that apartment will be going to an Ecuadorian, not a gringo. My point is: prices are going up and it is not always gringo gouging.

I understand that if you live in Cuenca, are a gringo, and find the culture hard to understand, things may be unfair, and be downright frustrating. But, if I may be permitted, let me point something out. Much of this has to do with pricing. In other words, it is about money. This is very much a gringo concept. There is nothing wrong with this. But, you are not in a gringo country. If you look at it from an Ecuadorian viewpoint, you may see this differently. That $400 dollars more a year you spend in the market will go for medicine for an Ecuadorian's mother. Or, new shoes for a child who is without. I am pretty sure that money is not building anyone's wealth, but rather supplying basic needs. It is neither bigotry, hypocrisy, or unfairness from an Ecuadorian viewpoint.

Of course, your viewpoint may be different. But, here in Ecuador, you will be a minority in this view. Ecuador is definitely not North America, nor should it be. It is a third-world country and it is very poor. Your coming with incomes far greater than the average Ecuadorian, is, in a way, taking advantage of the situation here. Are you really surprised that you, in turn, may be taken advantage of (a viewpoint people are expressing here). Perhaps, with some reflection, you may see the hypocrisy in this type of thinking? Or maybe not; it will depend on your view of the world, I suppose. But the one thing you should not do is expect Ecuadorians to change their culture for you.

Joseph K wrote:

Your coming with incomes far greater than the average Ecuadorian, is, in a way, taking advantage of the situation here. Are you really surprised that you, in turn, may be taken advantage of (a viewpoint people are expressing here). Perhaps, with some reflection, you may see the hypocrisy in this type of thinking? Or maybe not; it will depend on your view of the world, I suppose. But the one thing you should not do is expect Ecuadorians to change their culture for you.

If I were to use the same line of reasoning, then I could claim that Californians, Bostonians, and New Yorkers that move to Georgia and Tennessee are taking advantage of those Southerners for their cheaper real estate, gasoline, and food prices. But then again, Southern merchants don't add a "Yankee tax" whenever they sense a non-Southern accent.

Ripping people off isn't part of the definition of one's culture. At least, I would hope no one considers that to be part of their culture.

I'm not completely discounting what you posted above as I don't live in Ecuador like you do. You certainly have a better grasp of things there than I. But the concept is hard for me to wrap my head around.