GRINGO GOUGING be part of the solution

Brandon, your inability to "wrap your head around" the concept is due to your unfamiliarity with Ecuador. This does not diminish the reality of how the economy here works.

fdmcg wrote:

Brandon, your inability to "wrap your head around" the concept is due to your unfamiliarity with Ecuador. This does not diminish the reality of how the economy here works.

And it works that way in all the third world countries I know of.  In the Philippines I never go shopping with my wife because then she will not be able to bargain, being with an Americano(gringo), like her fellow Filipinos.  The fact that the way of life in Ecuador is generally cheaper than the USA should mean that, even at gringo prices, you will get more for less.  If you cannot accept that as a gringo you will be treated differently, then you need to stay home or go where foreigners are treated like native citizens. Brandon, when you find that place please let us know about it.

BrandonBP wrote:

If I were to use the same line of reasoning, then I could claim that Californians, Bostonians, and New Yorkers that move to Georgia and Tennessee are taking advantage of those Southerners for their cheaper real estate, gasoline, and food prices. But then again, Southern merchants don't add a "Yankee tax" whenever they sense a non-Southern accent.

Ripping people off isn't part of the definition of one's culture. At least, I would hope no one considers that to be part of their culture.

I'm not completely discounting what you posted above as I don't live in Ecuador like you do. You certainly have a better grasp of things there than I. But the concept is hard for me to wrap my head around.

well said. Good to see some common sense

Apparently some Gringos not only don't mind being charged more, they go so far as to actually defend bigoted treatment. I suppose that's why the practice exists if, in fact, so many are apathetic that it's even happening. This attitude as telling about the situation as any analysis of the "culture" of Ecuadorean merchants.

If you enjoy it, by all means don't let me stand in your way. I'm not going try and prevent anyone from taking your money.

BrandonBP wrote:

Apparently some Gringos not only don't mind being charged more, they go so far as to actually defend bigoted treatment. I suppose that's why the practice exists if, in fact, so many are apathetic that it's even happening. This attitude as telling about the situation as any analysis of the "culture" of Ecuadorean merchants.

If you enjoy it, by all means don't let me stand in your way. I'm not going try and prevent anyone from taking your money.

Acceptance does not equal enjoy.

BrandonBP wrote:

Ripping people off isn't part of the definition of one's culture. At least, I would hope no one considers that to be part of their culture.

I'm not completely discounting what you posted above as I don't live in Ecuador like you do. You certainly have a better grasp of things there than I. But the concept is hard for me to wrap my head around.

My comments are a bit like going into a catholic church and claiming there is not God. A bit crazy, I think. I wouldn't blame you if you wanted to throw me out of the church for making my points so inelegantly.

It is worthwhile to consider that our opinions are, in a large part, a product of our cultural upbringing, and are not necessarily truth. It is also worthwhile to not discount an opinion that may even seem ridiculous, (which you admirably are not), especially if that difference creates disharmony or makes one feel disrespected. People from different cultures do see things differently and no one view is more valid than the other. Also, the view that operates within a culture is not easily negated by a view from outside that culture. Calling a view within a culture wrong, using a different cultural norm, is really just a form of judgement. With this complexity, it is only natural to not easily be able to wrap one's head around cultural differences and a common challenge for expats.

Perhaps I could make different point, which may not seem relevant without some reflection. A long time ago, someone told me something that had a very large impact in my life. He said, "If you are in a situation that requires change, the only change you can count on is the change that takes place within you."

BTW, I have been sharing the comments in this thread with my Ecuadorian family. They are having an equally difficult time wrapping their heads around some of the gringo's comments. This tells me that this needs a lot of work on both sides. Herein lies the significane of the paragraph directly above.

Now, to address your comment about "ripping people off" as a cultural norm in Ecuador. Here, one needs to understand poverty and this is very difficult for North Americans. Most North Americans have never lived on $200, or even $400 dollars a month. Here, disparity of income is not acceptable, even though it exists. In the history of the world, income equality and/or wealth has been the cause of many revolutions.  As I explained, if you do get "ripped-off," at least this money goes to basic needs and not to making the recipient richer. In other words, the motives are not as onerous as being ripped-off in other cultures. Certainly, this is a truly a complex situation and your experience will mostly likely inform your opinion. But, ironically, this is the very issue in the U.S. that, for now, is the elephant in the room, although it's trunk is peeking out. I don't think "rich" people are going to enjoy what will eventually take place. In my personal opinion, things will eventually be much worse in American than they are here. But, that is just my opinion.

Joseph,

I'll be down next week for the whole summer, so I'll get to see everything for myself. I can converse fairly well in Spanish and I've traveled to a lot of different countries , so I expect the situation won't be much different than what I already think it will be. I don't imagine I'll have much problem personally, but I'll wait and see.

I don't mind haggling for items. I think that's just good-natured capitalism. The only thing that annoys me is an attempt to swindle on the back end of a deal, such as people sometimes experience with taxis trying to charge more after they were quoted a different price before the trip. 

In the end, I'm a huge fan of the free market. If a buyer and seller come to an agreement that makes both parties happy, then it makes for a successful trade. If I buy a product for $10 and am happy with the price I received, then it doesn't concern me that someone else came along behind me and bought one for $8.

If I lived in Quito, then I'd certainly shop around for the vendors that treated me fairly and then do sole business with him/her from then on. While on vacation, though, I'm not going to walk all over town trying to save 50 cents. That's valuable beer time.

Brandon,
I wish you a very enjoyable vacation in Ecuador, It should be fun, and I would agee: you are unlikely to have problems because your expectations seem very reasonable.

You mentioned Quito, and for some reason I thought about the botanical gardens there. If you are interested in that sort of thing, don't miss it. There is so much to see, all thoughout this country, and, for the most part, you will find Ecuadorians accommodating hosts. Ah,yes, the local is pretty good.

Joseph K wrote:

Brandon,
You mentioned Quito, and for some reason I thought about the botanical gardens there. If you are interested in that sort of thing, don't miss it. There is so much to see, all thoughout this country, and, for the most part, you will find Ecuadorians accommodating hosts.

I expect to have such a huge time. I'm so excited I'm about to go out of my mind. I feel like I'm 6 again waiting on Christmas.

The botanical gardens is something I would enjoy, but it sounds like something I would enjoy with other people along (like hot girls). I want to check out the local markets and street food. Man, I sure do love some street food.

If you are going to do street food, stop by a farmacia, they are everywhere, and pick up a small container of Nutrizym Plus. You probably won't need it, but if you do, you'll appreciate having it.

Joseph K, I liked your point about making relationships. It makes so much sense. We do want to make these relationships with Ecuadorians and it will make our life here more real. Thanks for the insight. Joyce U.

I am glad you feel this way and it will help you here. But, it is not easy to make relationships, when other views can present such difficult conflicts. In that case, mutual respect goes a long way. Unfortunately, in the American culture, opposing views often create walls and criticism. In Ecuadorian culture, opposing views are mostly likely tempered by tolerance, and a wish to resolve differences. That is one of the reasons I love this country.

A caveat understanding some of you will discount what I say simply because we don't live there yet.  But, we have extensive and significant experience living overseas, which we enjoyed, even though it wasn't always happy faces for everything.  We have not gone anywhere expecting it to be like gringo-land here in the US.  In fact some of our very worst experiences were being with gringos who wanted it be like home - that is, for it to be good in the ways they want and for it to be different in other ways they want.

I love this blog!  It is the first site I have found that is not veiled advertising for real estate, books, consulting, whatever.  This particular thread was disturbing in some ways.  I appreciate and respect all of the opinions and info.  I don't think it is an all or nothing situation though.  Would I expect to have to pay the "market" rate - you betcha.  The market rate is whatever they can get.  Car dealers in the US are the same.  Garage sales ditto.  Housing ditto.  The American Way. 

It's no surprise that the locals want to make as much money as they can from whomever they can.  If they could charge more to other locals, they will.  Will they use gringos' (in general) lack of knowledge, language and haggling skills to raise prices, why shouldn't they.  Americans do it.  Competition sets the prices just as it does elsewhere.  Would I like to save some money by paying what more knowledgeable buyers would pay - sure!  Would I be upset I have to pay more - yes and no.  I hate going to buy cars in the US because it is so in your face the same way. 

Am I saying that gringos should just suck it up and pay.  Yes and no.  Why pay more than you have to?  Will I get totally bent out of shape because they charge x, y, z?  No.  I expect to shop around when it matters and not worry about nickels and dimes (knowing that it can matter for things bought every day).  I won't hold it against the locals for trying to put food on their tables.  I'd do the same thing if I were in their shoes.

Like some of you have said, I have found that letting yourself be friends with locals is the best defense to "gouging".  They can let you know how to find things, introduce you to good people and deals, and just make you life happier in general.  They will even give things to you at times because if you make the attempt to enjoy them and their culture.

One of the best deals I got in Mexico was buying a car.  I wanted to buy one in Puerto Vallarta - gringo heaven - but they were charging gringo prices.  I took a bus inland to Guadalajara and found better prices.  I ended up buying a car off of a used car lot.  They didn't speak English and my Spanish was so bad I couldn't negotiate with them very much and I certainly couldn't read the contract.  They thought I was completely loco.  Maybe I should not have, but I felt that I would be treated the same as a local off the street - and I was.  In New Zealand I bought a small used car and felt I was totally taken advantage of.  It was my choice though.  In the end, they were honest about the price and I could take it or leave it.  Nothing different either.  Both cars had some problems - just like a used car anywhere.  No complaints.

Those of you who take great offense that they are subject to capitalism and subsistence living by the locals are not really wrong from your perspective but you aren't going to change anything by getting mad about it.  LIke others said you have the freedom to find a better deal elsewhere.  Haggling is your right too.  You may be good at it or not.  I can tell you though - you are more likely to get a better deal if you are firm AND friendly.  The one thing I have already discovered is that I will not like all the gringos trying to take my money for things I really don't need at the price they want to gouge out of me, either out my ignorance that I need it, or from having better knowledge of what they can get out of gringos - i.e. the "market" rate for new gringos. 

I will miss the lower prices for alcohol, meats, appliances, electronics, and the lower selection for everything.  We'll make up for it by the overall lower cost of living, and, from the other benefits of living in another culture.  The one thing I really don't like in any country though is government graft and corruption.  That is not market pricing - it's monopoly pricing, with some arrogance thrown in.  You can fight it to a point, but in the end you have to make a decision whether you want American taxes or the "taxes" at the new country.  I paid money to a couple of cops in Mexico that they kept.  It was their "wages" but I didn't sweat it - I was guilty - and they were only trying to feed their kids.  Other times I was red-faced mad when I was extorted by customs or immigration officials.  Oh well, we'll make the best of it.  It's our choice where we live.  What a cool thing that we have a choice!

I hope everyone enjoys where ever they stay.  Life is too short to be upset all the time.  BTW - we expect to enjoy meeting gringos as much as we do the locals.  We will best enjoy the gringos who understand where they respect the local customs, and want to have a good time.  We will expect to pay more for some things than locals but what else is new?  It happens everywhere.  We will not enjoy "ugly" americans who disrespect the country and locals where they chose to live.  No one on this thread seems to meet that threshold so we expect to enjoy meeting all of you soon as we can!!  P.S.  Still researching a final resting spot.  Will fly in for a couple of months and check it all out.

Exskipper wrote:

A caveat understanding some of you will discount what I say simply because we don't live there yet.  But, we have extensive and significant experience living overseas...

To the contrary, you are, I believe, making a case that the entire world is really the same in many ways and a common sense and an open approach is a productive way to tackle most challenges.

Regarding corruption: unfortunately, that is a way of life in South America. This hasn't yet had a direct effect on my day-to-day living. Neither the police or the government has bothered to cause me any grief. But, political decisions do make it difficult for the poor to find solutions to their poverty. And, the bureaucracy can be frustrating at times... well, most of the time, actually.

Fortunately, even if Correa is a consumate politician (with all the attending faults), he is a very smart man. He has done some really good things here. Still, he really desperately wants to free South America of American influence, but I am pretty sure his Chavas imitation will not succeed.  In the end, when American falters (never in the world has quantitive easing had a positive outcome), and power in the world begins to shift, it will the the pragmatic and sensible approach of the Ecuadorian people that will right things. Ecuadorians are very tolerant, but when they have had enough, there leaders can be dispelled in a flash. That is not a scary as it sounds.

I didn't find the Ecuadorans to be severe gringo gougers, I've seen much much worse. Rug vendors in the middle east spring quickly to mind....

When living abroad in poorer countries I know I'm being charged the foreigner premium, but many times I am not unhappy to pay it. Because in fact, even though I am on a budget and surely not rich, I do have more income and better opportunities than they will ever have. I can afford the little bit of extra charge.

Many times I have bought things I didn't even want, because clearly the seller needed to sell the thing in order to carry on, and I feel an obligation to support little people who are making every effort in a difficult world to survive from one day to the next.

In Quito I had my boots polished even though they didn't need to be polished. I did it because the fellow was clearly trying to eke out a bit of a living for himself the only way he knew how, polishing shoes. Actually I would have just given him the $4 but he expected to provide his service in return for due payment, it's the honorable way.

The Ecuadoran actually seemed like very industrious people. I saw very few beggars. I saw plenty of people selling little things, providing services, and getting paid for their efforts. Here in the US they just hit you up on the street constantly wanting money for nothing, and then cursing you for not handing them some cash.

When it comes to vendors, I found the Ecuadorans to be very poor bargainers. I don't know how many times I was negotiating prices on something--souvenir markets and the like--and when I didn't meet their original price they just let me walk away with my money and didn't attempt to negotiate. Couldn't believe it. I'm more used to dealing with Azeri's who are going to sell you something one way or another till they've got your money in their pockets. The Ecuadorans were pussy cats in comparison.

wjwoodward wrote:

I started doing things like a Brazilian, and found my life much less complicated and learned how to get the best deals possible for everything I need.

Can you go into detail? While no one likes the idea of being gouged, I personally just won't go to all the effort that Carmen (Mistymeaner) does.

I could say, "Eso es demasiado" to any price that's quoted to my gringo face, and coming back with a more reasonable price (if I know what that is), but I'm not sure I want to spend an entire day like this just trying to buy fresh produce.

What are your particular strategies?

fdmcg wrote:

From my experience I find it best to establish a relationship with one or two suppliers. Ask their name and treat them with respect and with a smile. Tell them what you are looking for....Within a short time you understand when certain products are in season, what the market price is for those products and local venders understand your shopping habits....Learn the language and how your adopted country works then adapt a strategy that gets you what you want within market conditions. This is probably a more realistic approach vs trying to change the market to fit your demands.

This is a good tip! Thanks.

fdmcg wrote:

If they don't know you they increase the price 50%. Tell them you purchased it for half that price last week (also a lie) and they reduce the price 20%. Offer 50% of that price or what you think is fair and you may have a deal....Ecuadorian women shoppers are experts in the system. Watch them in action and you may feel sorry for the "gouging" sellers. Most men, Ecuadorian and "gringos", don't have the patience and accept a higher price to get on with life.

Also a worthwhile tip. Think I'm going to start collecting these...

Karen

Joseph K wrote:

(never in the world has quantitive easing had a positive outcome)

Off topic, but never in the world has quantitative easing had a negative outcome. Not ever before, not now in the US, not now in Europe, not now in Japan.

Karen:

Mr Woodward was rebuked on another thread, said people in Ecuador are too sensitive to his telling them how to live, and he will no longer be posting on this forum. Fdmcg probably gave you as much information as you need to understand the market place in Ecuador, now it will just be a matter of practicing these principles when you arrive in Ecuador.  Good Luck.