Complex Situation

First of all, when you leave, you will have to pay the overstay fine, which is R$ 8.27 per day with a cap of 100 days, so R$ 827 total.

You won't be allowed back in, unless you have applied for a permanent visa from within Brazil for at least three months.

By way of a preventive Habeas Corpus, there is a possibility to get you back into Brazil, in order to get married.

Congrats on the baby.

Hello Aaron,

How far along in the pregnancy is your girlfriend now?

Obviously, you would want to regularize your situation and marry, but that may not be possible under present circumstances. Also leaving Brazil carries the fine and while it won't prevent you from coming back into Brazil if paid, it will mean that you must remain out of the country until you can legally return. This is the tricky part, since the Visa Waiver Program is relatively new it is unclear how long you're going to be prohibited entry. If the Federal Police follow the regulations exactly then it should be 180 days, however even they don't know the rules and are mostly confused and under misinformation, so they make mistakes. You could try and come back and only then find that you've run into a Federal Police agent at the airport who believes you can't return because of all the overstay days. Risky business returning home now with a plan to come back to Brazil.

While it means you're going to have to "stay under the radar" for quite a while, your best option might be simply do nothing. Try to tough it out until the baby is born. Once you've got a Birth Certificate with your name on it as father, you can apply for a VIPER Permanent Visa regardless of your migratory situation. Applications must meet all the standard requirements regarding documentation, but their acceptance and issue of the visa are almost guaranteed and the process is completed relatively quickly.

Once you have applied (actually once you've got the Birth Certificate) you will not be expelled from Brazil.  See reply #16 on the following topic posting for the legislation:

https://www.expat.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=242172

Basically, as long as the child is financially dependent on you, is in your care and custody and you don't abandon the child you're considered by the Federal Police as "inexpulsável".

Since you've already overstayed for so long, that much longer won't make a lot of difference. Even if you're found in the meantime, you're in no different position than you are right now. I'd suggest the "wait and see" approach. If you get caught and "invited" to leave Brazil then go, because you've lost nothing that you wouldn't have lost by leaving voluntarily now. If not then the birth of your child will resolve all your problems.

I want to make it perfectly clear that I'm not counselling you to do anything ILLEGAL, you're already in this situation. What I am doing is counselling you to DO NOTHING right now, and that's all. If the situation were different and you hadn't already overstayed, obviously I would tell you to go home. Right now by doing nothing you have nothing to lose and everything to gain. I'm sure that my friend lawyer_rio would agree with me that this is probably, given your situation, the most prudent approach right now.

  Cheers, 
  William James Woodward – Brazil Animator, Expat-blog Team

Firstly, I would like to thank you both for your informative and impartial advice! You have both been great on this forum ande I thank you on behalf of others for your great research and knowledge.

So unfortunately my flight leaves tomorrow. I have to take it in reality, It cost so much and was such a sacrifice to get.
I appreciate the idea of doing nothing, that makes sense to me, however, I was told by vairous people that for me to be registered as the parent, I would need a passport. I currently don;t have one, and I was also warned about the difficulties in beaurocracy in having a baby's name changed at a future date and the horror stories of school payments being rejected when mothers had different surnames etc.
The main reason I didnt act more quickly was firstly money, it was a major issue up until 9 months ago when I picked up very steady work and all that I have saved has been spent on flights and put aside for document procuring, translation and notorizing for the baby/wedding. The other issue was that I was told by 2 laywers who own a visa service here in sao paulo that they don't actually register you properly when you arrive at the airport. I.e, you get scanned but it doesnt go into a database. I didn't believe that at all when I got here, but they tell all of their clients the same thing (my fiancee worked for them for a year). I just thought that I would be ok, seeing that my passport didn;t have the new NFR chip and that I will have another one upon return.
Does this look like I'll be spending at least the next 7 months back in the UK then?

Also, Riolaywer, when you say a permanant visa, what would i have applied for? As we are not married, nor do I have sufficient documentation for us to apply for a Uniao estavel I assumed that route is closed for me.

Thanks again gents

P.S My partner is approaching 3 months. The tickets were booked before she fell pregnant.

Hi Arron,

I would advise strongly against your child's mother registering the baby in her name only. The Birth Certificate can be changed in the future, but only judicially and that takes a bit of time. If she registers the child in your name it will make absolutely no difference to her or the child. School payments? Do you mean Bolsa Família? Even that won't be a problem and as far as school goes that's at least 6 years off.

To register the child in your name, first you DON'T need a passport and if you did you can apply for a passport here in Brazil at your Embassy or Consulate any time you need one. Second, you don't even need to be present at the Cartório to register the child, only one parent need be present.

If the child is registered in your name then you can apply for a VIPER Permanent Visa (com base em filho brasileiro) at any time. You will have to return to Brazil as a tourist and then apply here in Brazil, that will automatically allow you to stay and to work while the application is processed. I have been told that Consulates abroad will not take a VIPER application based on a child (don't know why) and that they tell people they have to apply here in Brazil.

If she doesn't register the child in your name then you're going to be stuck until you can get it changed judicially to reflect your paternity.

If you do go back home, you certainly will have to wait at least 3 months, possibly more in order to return legally. I really suggest you re-think everything. Perhaps the airline will refund part of your paid passage. Who knows?

  Cheers, 
  William James Woodward – Brazil Animator, Expat-blog Team

adoneill wrote:

The other issue was that I was told by 2 laywers who own a visa service here in sao paulo that they don't actually register you properly when you arrive at the airport. I.e, you get scanned but it doesnt go into a database. I didn't believe that at all when I got here, but they tell all of their clients the same thing (my fiancee worked for them for a year).

I really hope you didn't pay for that information, because it is blatanly wrong. They know exaclty when you entered, what flight you entered on and which passport you where using.

adoneill wrote:

I just thought that I would be ok, seeing that my passport didn;t have the new NFR chip and that I will have another one upon return.
Does this look like I'll be spending at least the next 7 months back in the UK then?

That might be te case.

adoneill wrote:

Also, Riolaywer, when you say a permanant visa, what would i have applied for? As we are not married, nor do I have sufficient documentation for us to apply for a Uniao estavel I assumed that route is closed for me.

The documentation for the stable union visa has a nice OR in it. It's either a judicial decision OR that whole bunch of documentation. Going before a judge to have a stable union declared is much easier and takes only a few months.

wjwoodward wrote:

Hi Arron,

I would advise strongly against your child's mother registering the baby in her name only. The Birth Certificate can be changed in the future, but only judicially and that takes a bit of time. If she registers the child in your name it will make absolutely no difference to her or the child.

You can make up a power of attorney alowing your fiancee to register the child in your name. That's easy enough, especially if you have a "firma"registered with some cartorio.

wjwoodward wrote:

To register the child in your name, first you DON'T need a passport

You don't need a passort per se, but you do need some form of ID.

wjwoodward wrote:

Second, you don't even need to be present at the Cartório to register the child, only one parent need be present.

True if you are married.

If you're not married, both need to be present, except in the case of a POA.

If the mother tries to register the child only in her name, they will send the registry over to the Ministerio Publico who will want to know who the father is.

Sven,

Thanks for the clarification, I didn't know that both parents needed to attend the Cartório in the event that they were not married; except when one makes a procuração público. Kind of makes sense though, good sense.

  Cheers, 
  William James Woodward – Brazil Animator, Expat-blog Team

Well gents, I'm back!

Here's the breakdown of exactly what happened.
The two lawyers who told me about the entry thing were the former bosses of my partner. She worked for them at their visa company visto brasil in Sao Paulo - I do NOT recommend them for anything, they lie to all clients and exploit their workforce.

So anyway, it went much more smoothly than imagined.
When I arrived at emmigration in Guarulhos my ETD (emergency passport) was scanned and then a little conversation went on between the border control staff. they went off for around 10 mins and then returned and asked how long I'd been in the ocuntry. I left it vague and said 'a while'. They then went off again and came back some minutes later and asked them to follow. We went to the policia federal desk around the corner and he asked me exactly when I had entered the ocuntry. I decided not to lie, he may have had the information right there in front of him, or not. I tend to lean towards believing they had no info whatsoever as they all looked so surprised about me being there in front of them. Anyway, he was quite a nice guy and had a sense of humor, so when I said I had been here since march 2010, he cracked a laugh and a joke about Brazil being addictive. He then said he was going to have to fine me, but that I could pay it on return. He stamped my emergency passport and sent me back to emmigration desk. Back at the desk, the clerk reiterated that I would have to pay the fine on re-entry, which I told him was only fair, and then here's where i realised he was probably deputied rather than a policia federal. I asked about the whole 180 days thing and about returning and about how long I would have to wait before coming back, and his exact words were 'Se voce paga a multa, pode voltar amanha'. i asked if he was sure, and he said don't worry about it, just pay on re-entry and there will be no problem.

I didn't want to take that statement too seriously, so I went ahead with the idea that I would probably be refused re-entry, even after paying the fine.

Back in the UK, I met border control. They asked me to surrender the emergency passport, and when I asked him about the stamp relating to the fine in Brazil, he said, 'Seriously? If they really wanted you to pay the fine, they could have and would have made you pay there, they do it all the time. The stamp will not be transferred to your new passport so only a database record will exist if they even bothered to record it.' Then he smiled and sent me on my way.

Got my passport, then had a panic realising that I needed a flight out of Brazil (mine was a return from sampa to london and back). I found a one way refundable with Turkish Airways from sampa to Buenos Aires for 200 dollars and banked it for november.

I didn't manage to get my birth certificate (long version) as there was a flood in the archives when I arrived and there is currently a 2 week backlog. However, they said I can get it at the consulate in Sao Paulo!

Coming back, I was worried. I had already decided that If i got turned away, I would try to come back by coach from Bolivia or Uruguay. I filled out my entrance card on the plane from Madrid and on arrival at Guarulhos at 7.45am, I waltzed straight through the queue as I must have been one of 10 foreigners on the flight, straight up to immigration, they scanned my passport and stamped me straight up for 90 days, no questions asked. I even asked if she wanted to see my flight out of the country, she said she didn't need to. Baggage came and I was all done in 20 minutes from plane to car!

The best part of this was that everybody was so nice and friendly, I think it goes to show how people treat you when you show them a bit of respect. I see too many gringos banging on about their 'rights' or 'entitlements'. This is usually when things start to go wrong!

So now on for the wedding preparations!
My only issue now is exactly what docs they need!
I'll have a birth certificate and passport, and certificate of non-impediment from the consulate once the marrrage has been announced. They mentioned something about proof of residency. Would my joint account here with my partner be valid proof? Or would I need to use an english one? (I have the letter from the HM passport office at my cousins if needed)

Anyway, thanks for all the advice from all of you, I just wanted to leave a record of what happened in my case for anyone else who may be in a similar boat. Don't leave it to chance, but you may get lucky! After some serious gunpoint robberies (4 in 3 year) I've been due a little luck!!!

Hi Arron,

Your UK passport will allow you to stay 90 days which can be extended to 180 under a separate agreement with the UK which is totally unlike any other Visa Waiver Program countries, lucky you because you'll probably need that to get through the whole process.

Your Birth Certificate long form (for marriage) and the Certified Criminal Record Check (for permanent visa process) will have to go back to the Consulado-Geral do Brasil in the UK jurisdiction of your home city to be legalized by them - but if you have no record whatsoever the Feds may let you sign a sworn declaration instead of the check. Ask them when you apply for the visa. They will accept the application anyway and if they want the Criminal Records Check they'll let you sumbit it at a later date.

The Birth Cert, Cert of No Impediment need to be translated here in Brazil by a "tradutor juramentado". Other than your Marriage Certificate once you're hitched and apply for the visa and your wife's RG (Registro Geral) that's it. Regarding the proof of address they want something like a telephone, gas, light or water bill in YOUR name at your Brazilian address. You should be able to get a cellular phone account which will do just fine. But you'll need to first apply for a CPF (Cadastro de Pessoas Fisicas) tax number first. You get that at the Receita Federal and all you need is your passport for that.

Check this posting for all the information and documentation for the marriage and visa process:

https://www.expat.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=280525

Great to hear that you had no problems with re-entry. I'm glad to know that you're soon going to realize your dream. You're right, if you aren't wound up tighter than the propellor on an old beanie and if you roll with the punches, treat the officials ok then you get treated with almost red carpet service. Hope that helped you save up your strength and patience for the Federal Police, because the bureaucracy there will soon have you pulling your hair out and downing tranquilizers like candy. LOL

Congrats!!!!!


  Cheers, 
  William James Woodward – Brazil Animator, Expat-blog Team

Apparently, the certificate of non-impediment and birth certificate can all be gotten here at the British consulate general in Sao Paulo and can be legalised here as per the tarrif and list of payments here. It's quite a bit more expenisve than at home (the cert if 35 reis there but 70 here). The consulate also informed me that they can translate any and all documents too as they have a tradutor juramentado service and notary on site. ( a list of services and tarrifs can be found on the British consulate gov website). I also know a good translator juramentado near to Se who did my passport last time for 30 reis and has left the offer open for the birth certificate too.
I already have a CPF, I think it was the first thing I did when i arrived, and I went to Banco do Brasil, got a protocol and paid 5 reis and then they gave me an internet link where I could schedule a visit the next week to the new Poupa tempo beaurocratic centre where it was ready within 10 minutes along with my passport translated and notarized. The CPF card arrived a week later, although I understand that they no longer emit the cards.

Getting a phone contract is impossible for the moment, they require me to have a RG or RNE which I don;t have. However, I will get a RNE once the baby is born (at least thats what happened to my Kiwi friend, and he didn;t even get married to the mother of his son nor does he live here) Hopefully, I can use a communication from my banco do Brasil when I apply to renew my broken bank card!!

I'll post up some links for Brits who wish to marry here tomorrow after work. The consulate has been amazing with everything and very helpful, they have a whole section about how to get married in Brazil (or in any country) on their gov website.

Thanks again WJ!!

No you don't seem to understand, they don't get legalized by the British Consulate, they've got to be legalized by the Brazilian Consulate, in the UK unless there is some kind of agreement with the UK that doesn't exist with any other country on the globe.

What operator did you try for the cellular phone? I had Claro long before I had an RNE no problem, they only wanted the CPF. You could order NET combo again only with CPF. I think even Vivo will give you a contract with just a CPF too.

  Cheers, 
  William James Woodward – Brazil Animator, Expat-blog Team

James is correct. You must get your birth certificate certified in the Brazilian Consulate in the UK that serves your jurisdiction. I know I have the ability to mail my birth certificate to the Brazilian Consulate in Chicago if I need it legalized but it must be legalized abroad at the embassy or consulate serving your jurisdiction. I would check with the Brazilian embassy or consulate in the UK.

Now for the RNE/RG. You will not have one until you are issued a SINCRE which used to be immediate but now isn't issued until the end of the process. This all just recently changed.

Since I have been through the same thing with VIVO, Claro, Oi and TIM I can give you some advice.

For a POST-PAID CELLULAR plan all the carriers require a CPF and Brazilian ID document. I say ID document because my work book qualifies as an identity document. Once you apply at the DPF for permanency they will issue you a protocol which you will need to take to the Ministry of Labor. Once the Ministry issues you your blue or green work book you can pretty much use that as and ID document anywhere you go. Apparently the flimsy, laminated and easily reproduced book is worth more than a passport! Since having this work book I have not had ANY problems ANYWHERE with regards to my ID. Occasionally an eye brow will raise but it simply passes and I am on my way.

NET Combo only requires a CPF unless you are on a contract rate in which case you will need a Brazilian bank account, CPF, Brazilian ID document.

Oi (Internet and Fixed Phone) only requires a CPF and RNE/RG/Passport for either a contract or non-contract rate.

VIVO and TIM cellular require a CPF for pre-paid. Some stores will give you trouble, others will not.

Claro will NOT open any account for you POST or PRE-PAID without a Brazilian ID document and CPF. You can try and try but a passport is not an acceptable form of ID to them. If you really want Claro now, I would have a Brazilian get a pre-paid SIM for you and after you start your process use your work book to get a pre-paid or post-paid SIM.

Oi pre-paid cellular I am unsure of the pre-paid requirements. But without question a CPF is required.

As for a bank account, have fun! I had an agonizing experience opening mine but mainly because of the wait (4-5 hours sitting). Bradesco gave me little trouble opening a "Poupança" which is basically a savings account but comes with a Visa Debit card. The Brazilian equivalent of a checking account requires proof of employment. You will need to wait until you have your work book before you apply, unless you request a letter from the DPF the day you receive your protocol stating you are in the country because you are pending permanency. If you need more info on the letter let me know. I have yet to use it, so it could be a waste of time for you.





Matt V. - Manaus, Amazonas, Brasil
Visit my Personal Blog - brazilbs.blogspot.com

Thanks for the clarifications James and Matt, Just to let you know I've been here for nearly 4 years now. One of the first things I did was to get a bank account! it was actually not that difficult! We went to Banco do Brasil once I had my CPF (which is very easy, but they do lie to you sometimes that it's not possible which happened to my friend) and Tati put me as a segundo titolar on her bank account. The issue I had was that neither my passport or driving license have my parents names on them. The lady was so nice , she gave a wink and and just asked for their names and said 'lets see if it goes through!'. The real issue was that the comp0uter had no actual code for a person from the UK, but it had for Ireland, so she used that instead haha. Anyway I got my bank card a week later. Any communications from the bank would be proof of address I guess, or would I actually have to be the principal of the account? I'm also listed as an official dependent of Tati for tax purposes (and because at the time my Visa had expired so we were advised to start the process of a stable union which apparently you can do on an expired visa???).

I'm now quite used to flying under the radar, I even had to bribe a PF during the Riots in Sao Paulo when I was arrested in the metro during a big fight (I had nothing to do with it, was just waiting for a train after work) as he had told me that he would detain me for 5 days and only then allow me to contact Tati to get my I.D. I got off lightly, I had 100 reis in my wallet (payment from a student) and the phrase 'tem jeito?'. He just took the money out of my wallet and walked out of the interview room and said 'find your own way out'.
I think having fluent portuguese helps, and also having the balls sometimes to crack a joke. I have nothing to hide, so i guess that comes across, Brazilians always seem to find great amusement in Gringos speaking their language and often become very friendly because of it.

I've decided to get my brother to apply for my Birth certificate in London and take it to the Brazilian consulate there, and I have a good official translator here in the center who does my docs for 35 reis a piece. Hopefully If the marrige process takes longer than my 90 days, I will be able to get an extension easily enough, my banco do Brasil debit/credit card should be enough (healthy balance), and If not, I still have around 2500 reis in Pound sterling cash to show them if in dire need.

Cell phones I have a pre-pay Vivo, but it's kind of one of those deals, 22 reis per month, free vivo-vivo/fixed calls and unlimited internet (slow slow speed only for email). Everything else is in Tati's name of course, although I believe our appartment contract has myself listed as an inhabitant as they asked for a copy of my passport when we moved in.

So things are slowly moving forward. The worst thing for me was to be without any form of I.D for nearly 3 years here, it's like having your freedom removed, not able to travel (although buses from Sampa to Curitiba or Rio had no problem with the photocopy of my notarized passport copy haha) and not knowing when we could restart the process.
Worst case scenario is that I can't get the docs in time, this would be inconvenient, however, we would just have to wait until the birth of our baby and then I guess I could go through the process again for that (my friend did this and it was stupidly quick - RG in his hand not an RNE, in 2 weeks!) and then get married after.

Thanks again for all the helpful info, I'm hoping everything you have all written here can be helpful to others!!

If any of you are ever in Sao Paulo, drop me a line and I'll take you for a beer and show you around my School!

How in the world did you get a Brazilian bank account without an RNE and VIPER Permanent Visa, they are obligatory at all Brazilian banks? Did you open the account in your name solely or jointly with your partner? Even if you were added afterward as "segundo titular" on an existing account in Brazil the bank requires your CPF, RNE, etc.

Well, I had a CPF already (as you know, anybody can get one easily) and we went to ITAU and Bradesco asking about an account. They told the obvious, no RNE/RG no account. We went to Banco Do Brasil and asked the same, and the answer was the same, but then the clerk suggested putting me as a second card holder on Tati's account. It's not a Joint account, however I have all the same rights as if it were, even down to her not being able to order a replacement card for me when it broke this year, I had to call in person.
The process was simple. They asked to see my passport, took a copy, and then asked for my entry card. He immediately reminded me that I had only 12 days left on my Visa at the time, but that it was no problem. The issue I did have was the lack of parents names on any of my I.D's. That was when I told him that our I.D's have no such info. So he just asked for my parents names and entered then into the system saying let's give it a go, and voila, I signed the form and was registered on the dot!
I'm not sure what has changed howver, according to this document from BB http://www.bb.com.br/docs/pub/voce/dwn/ … rrente.pdf , you owuld still need the same documents as you would to open an account, being Photo I.D, CPF, proof of salary, proof of residence, RNE. I had the proof of address as a depoendent of Tati, but no proof of salary (I think you don't actually need that for a second card holder, Tati and her mother never have to give one when they recieve cards to my brother in law's credit accounts) and no RNE obivously.
It's worth going down to a BB and trying it out especially if you have a good relationship with a cashier or try multiple branches in search of somebody 'Simpatico'!!

Edit: Just to ask, I've been unable to do any online transfers recently, I keep getting an unspecified error and this has been happening intermittently for the past 4 months, independent of device used authorized or not, with the bb module installed etc. This meant that as it had been working again up until monday, when I went to pay my rent on tuesday, it was not possible and I ended up having to go to the cash machine and do it on wednesday and I had to pay a fine of 97 reis on top of that!! Do you think  this is because of the striking??

I think that would be a question for Banco do Brasil as it sounds like an error related to their online banking system.

And just to clarify - those in the permanency process that do NOT have an RNE, require only their DPF Protocol, CPF, passport. Checking accounts require proof of salary, where as savings accounts (Poupança) do not require proof of income.

Every bank twists the rules, and truthfully that is what makes the process complicated. If you go to one Banco do Brasil to open an account they will tell you one thing, and if you go to another Banco do Brasil they will tell you another!





Matt V. - Manaus, Amazonas, Brasil
Visit my Personal Blog - brazilbs.blogspot.com

Just a bit of information I found out today regarding proof of address and what constitutes "Comprovante de Endereço". Here is what the law that is currently in effect has to say on the subject, so it might make things really easy for you:

LEI Nº 7.115, DE 29 DE AGOSTO DE 1983.

Dispõe sobre prova documental nos casos que indica e da outras providências.

O PRESIDENTE DA REPÚBLICA , faço saber que o Congresso Nacional decreta e eu sanciono a seguinte Lei:

Art . 1º - A declaração destinada a fazer prova de vida, residência, pobreza, dependência econômica, homonímia ou bons antecedentes, quando firmada pelo próprio interesse ou por procurador bastante, e sob as penas da Lei, presume-se verdadeira.

Parágrafo único - O dispositivo neste artigo não se aplica para fins de prova em processo penal.

Art . 2º - Se comprovadamente falsa a declaração, sujeitar-se-á o declarante às sanções civis, administrativas e criminais previstas na legislação aplicável.

Art . 3º - A declaração mencionará expressamente a responsabilidade do declarante.

Art . 4º - Esta Lei entra em vigor na data de sua publicação.

Art . 5º - Revogam-se as disposições em contrário.

Brasília, em 29 de agosto de 1983; 162º da Independência e 95º da República.

JOÃO FIGUEIREDO
Ibrahim Arbi-Ackel
Hélio Beltrão

So according to the law of the land you don't need anything other than a simple Declaration under penalty of law signed by you. The law doesn't even require that the signature be notarized, however if the Federal Police insist I wouldn't argue with them about it. If you show them the law and the agree to accept a declaration as they should, count yourself lucky and just get a "Reconhecimento da Firma por Autenticidade" anyway.

Cheers,
James