Indonesian PR

Quite possibly it depends if you know anyone in immigration and how much you are prepared to pay. just joking 

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MikeWallace77 wrote:

Quite possibly it depends if you know anyone in immigration and how much you are prepared to pay.

Perhaps you could detail your experience in this matter; especially corruption in the immigration department.

The truth is commonly different from smug, uninformed comment.
Whilst there was a serious problem in years gone by, all immigration offices have a price list posted by the payment desk and, in my experience of the last few years, no bribes have been asked for.

Excuse me, and pardon my ignorance, but what is "PR" in Indonesia?

Most every Indonesian I know would take that to mean public relations...but then again, maybe I've been here too long!

And, just for the record, assuming PR has anything to do with immigration, I agree 100% with Pak Fred.  Immigration has indeed "cleaned up their act" a great deal in recent years.

Mike, living in Malaysia, I suspect that it's been a while since you've had to deal with immigration in Indonesia.  Truly, it is night and day to what it was as recently as 5 or 6 years ago.

Hi Ubudian and Mas Fred, No, we have properties and business in Indonesia and travel a couple of times each month to Indonesia. I also lived in Bali for years and put four kids in the International School in Sanur a long time ago. We also have friends in Immigration and we know wives of immigration officers who are rolling in money. Admittedly Bali may have cleaned up it's act but the same cannot be said for Java and I mean today and now.

Obviously we have different experiences and different opinions. Aside from corruption, look at the Governor of Tangerang, her husband, the Mayor of BSD and her husband. Fortunately Indonesia is working on curbing corruption but it is still there in a big way. And is continues in Immigration because senior immigration officers are commonly extremely rich living way beyond their salaries. My wife has university friends who are married to immigration officers.

By the way, I have worked allover Indonesia both onshore and offshore, both living in Indonesia as well as overseas. I do not dispute the things you say and perhaps you should accept that others in this Forum have experiences that you perhaps do not. I have also been exporting from Bali for about 18 years including garments, furnitures, handicrafts and jewellery as perhaps you might do or have done yourself.

So Ubudian and Freddie, you do know a lot about Bali and Indonesia, but please don't try to put others down when you don't really know anything about them. I do consider you an expert but kindly also show some respect to others.

No one is trying to put anyone down but the OP asked for information.
In two threads, you've misinformed rather badly.
Speculation, unsupported one off stories and guesses are not a lot of use to anyone.

As our esteemed friend from Bali said, immigration has cleaned up their act over the last few years and mass corruption is history.
To suggest a bribe will do the trick is dangerous as it may lead to criminal charges being brought against you for trying to bribe an official.
It could easily get you into a level of trouble.

“So Ubudian and Freddie, you do know a lot about Bali and Indonesia, but please don't try to put others down when you don't really know anything about them.”

Easy Mike, easy does it!  I have NOT put you down on ANY level here on this forum, so I take considerable exception to that comment from you.   

What Fred is getting at, and I agree with him 100%, stems from your earlier comment here wherein you wrote, “Quite possibly it depends if you know anyone in immigration and how much you are prepared to pay.”

That comment inappropriately suggest criminal conduct…attempting to bribe a government official, and Fred is correct, these days that sort of thing can back fire and land one in jail.

As for this multitude of immigration folks that you say you have personal knowledge of them living way beyond their means, there are a number of relatives in my wife’s family here in Ubud that serve in various government positions including the Provincial legislature, chief of police of Ubud, immigration and customs.  I have no doubts that they all would disagree with your assessment of just how wide spread and the monetary level of immigration corruption you described, even 10 to 15 years ago, but of course I am only speaking of Bali.

Well Fred...as you probably gathered there was some sarcasm to that comment of mine. When twats come here and start asking dumb questions thinking they can just roll into Indonesia (and Malaysia which seems even worse) and do anything for business and visas then it gets a bit ridiculous.

By the way, maybe it is considered as corruption or not, I'll let you decide, but applying for Indonesian passports the quick way by paying a few hundred thousand rupiah to an Agent or getting a local driving license by doing the same thing and so many other "quick" ways of getting official documents made faster instead of waiting a few days they can get them done in a day. Do you consider this as corruption?

Strictly speaking it is. But in Indonesia it is a way of life. And you find masses of Agent on the internet that do them. We've used Agents to get local documentation done the fast way many times ourselves and so have most indonesian friends that we know if they can afford it..

mas fred wrote:

No one is trying to put anyone down but the OP asked for information.
In two threads, you've misinformed rather badly.
Speculation, unsupported one off stories and guesses are not a lot of use to anyone.

As our esteemed friend from Bali said, immigration has cleaned up their act over the last few years and mass corruption is history.
To suggest a bribe will do the trick is dangerous as it may lead to criminal charges being brought against you for trying to bribe an official.
It could easily get you into a level of trouble.

Yes of course there is always a risk in offering a bribe, not only in Indonesia but in any country.

MikeWallace77 wrote:

Yes of course there is always a risk in offering a bribe, not only in Indonesia but in any country.

That's why it's an extremely bad idea to suggest it, especially when your knowledge is so far out of date and dangerously inaccurate.
As the gentleman in Bali confirms, corruption in immigration is no longer the norm and attempts to bribe officials could land you in deep trouble.
I have to openly praise Indonesian immigration in this matter - a few short years has seen a total turnaround, removing the vast majority, if not all corruption.
When it came to my last KITAP, I asked if there was any need to pay for the service. It was my first dealing with Tangerang immigration so I had little idea of the state of play there.
The officials were very polite, extremely helpful and, most importantly, were clear they wanted nothing for their assistance.
The same went for my trip to the central immigration office in Jakarta. I asked if there was any cost for the paperwork.
The reply was the same, the official fee covered everything.

As my daughter will move school soon, we've decided to move house as well. This will make it very easy for us to get her to school. That means a trip to immigration to get the new address in the blue book. I seriously don't expect to have to pay anything by way of a bribe.

mas fred wrote:

MikeWallace77 wrote:

Yes of course there is always a risk in offering a bribe, not only in Indonesia but in any country.

That's why it's an extremely bad idea to suggest it, especially when your knowledge is so far out of date and dangerously inaccurate.
As the gentleman in Bali confirms, corruption in immigration is no longer the norm and attempts to bribe officials could land you in deep trouble.
I have to openly praise Indonesian immigration in this matter - a few short years has seen a total turnaround, removing the vast majority, if not all corruption.
When it came to my last KITAP, I asked if there was any need to pay for the service. It was my first dealing with Tangerang immigration so I had little idea of the state of play there.
The officials were very polite, extremely helpful and, most importantly, were clear they wanted nothing for their assistance.
The same went for my trip to the central immigration office in Jakarta. I asked if there was any cost for the paperwork.
The reply was the same, the official fee covered everything.

As my daughter will move school soon, we've decided to move house as well. This will make it very easy for us to get her to school. That means a trip to immigration to get the new address in the blue book. I seriously don't expect to have to pay anything by way of a bribe.

That's great Fred. The less corruption the better. I'm happy that you find Indonesia corruption free. But then with everything that's going on in Tangerang/BSD I would imagine that no government official wants to be accused or taking bribes and going to jail, especially in the area where you live. Yes I'm really happy that you guys have told me that Indonesia no longer has corruption and is bribe free....hahaha!

“Yes I'm really happy that you guys have told me that Indonesia no longer has corruption and is bribe free....hahaha!”

More sarcasm?

Mike, surely you can appreciate that the truth lies somewhere in between, “there is no corruption here”, to “there is rampant corruption everywhere.”

You might figure though that at least two expats who have been living here in Indonesia 24/7 for many years (one in Jakarta, the other in Bali) and share the exact same opinion, the likelihood is pretty good that there’s a strong element of accuracy and truth to what they say. 

Mike, please explain why using an agent to work on one’s behalf with the immigration folks is in anyway corruption?  I see this as no different than using a travel agent to secure airline tickets and hotel reservation in lieu of doing this oneself.  Personally I’ve used the same visa agent for many years, simply because I don’t like wasting my time hanging around government offices.  It’s only a matter of personal choice, but surely there is absolutely nothing corrupt about it at all.  Maybe you can explain why you think it is?

Sorry but is it only Fred and you who have the monopoly on sarcasm? Perhaps if I also post a photo of me wearing an udeng then I can also pretend that I am an expert on Indonesia?

Living in Indonesia a long time does NOT automatically make you an expert. How many times have you visited the Rumah Sakit Jiwa in Bangli to give cigarettes and candies to the patients? Or given cigarettes to inmates at Kerbokan Jail? Were you around when that 18 year old french guy got caught carrying drugs in his diving tank and went to Kerbokan Jail all those years ago? Did you ever meet with him and give him some cigarettes? How long have you known Made from Made's Warung since the early eighties as I have done? Are you friends with her husband? Have you covered surfing events for UK Surf Magazines with articles on Made Kasim, Wayan Gantiyasa and Ketut Menda? Do you even know who they are?

Have you worked in Balikpapan or offshore Madura in oil exploration? Have you ever stayed at the Huffco Base Camp in Balikpapan? Were you ever a surfer at Kuta before they built Jalan Pantai Kuta and when you could ride a motorbike along the beach? Have you surfed Uluwatu or Padang Padang or Canggu? Do you ship 2 x 40 ft containers out of Bali every month or have you ever done so? I don't know, maybe you did all these things but maybe not. And it doesn't matter at all.

You see, this is not a competition about you being more knowledgeable than me or about me being more knowledgeable than Mas Fred or anyone needing to show off about trying to act cleverer than the others. My point is that you have experiences and Mas Fred has experiences (which he told me he gets from online articles) and I also happen to have experiences. So instead of trying to do this "I know more than you" game, why not just chill out.

And, of course there is corruption in Indonesia at all levels. Sure they are trying to stamp it out but it still goes on at different levels. You might be able to tell Mas Fred that there isn't much corruption remaining in Indonesia and he might believe you (I think he does believe you actually), but I know better, and I know that you are wrong. Ubudian, you might be able to get away with acting like you know everything with those people who have not spent half their life working in or with Indonesia, but you can't do that with me. I am a Brit, not a Malaysian as I think one of you seemed to think, and I have plenty of experience and knowledge about Indonesia.

And Mas Fred, I have stacks of friends and relatives living in BSD and I go there all the time.

Facts are corruption is rife in Indonesia, and hopefully will become less with time. And of course with all the news of the Tangerang/BSD government tenders being won by the governors family I hope that corruption will be greatly reduced in the future.

Sarcasm is a useful tool but outright misinformation is not.
Changing what a poster has said, making up a new version is also a bit useless.

I didn't claim there was no corruption in Indonesia, only that immigration was pretty much clean, and that's based on years of bribe free dealings with them.
That wasn't always the case; my first visa was a rare rip off but I didn't know even close to enough to work out how much the corrupt sod was taking me for.
The price lists being posted next to the cash desks have stopped all of that and the officers are very clear, corruption is not acceptable.
As for being an expert, not even close, but I do have a fair bit of experience under my belt.

“Perhaps if I also post a photo of me wearing an udeng then I can also pretend that I am an expert on Indonesia?”

For the record Mike, the “Bali Expert” designation was not self conferred but rather it was designated to me by the forum administrator.  If you have an issue with it, then take it up with Julien, the forum founder.  And then you can also knock it off with your snide and smart ass remarks. 

But I agree with you 100% in that “this is not a competition about you being more knowledgeable than me or about me being more knowledgeable than Mas Fred or anyone needing to show off about trying to act cleverer than the others.”

Repeat that in the mirror ten times, and start taking your own advice.

Same for me, I am not in any way an expert on Indonesia or any other country, but I have experience and a long history with Indonesia. I actually have a peci not an udeng as I converted when I married

Ubudian, i always respect your advice when I see you giving good information to newbies to Indonesia. But perhaps in this matter of corruption in Indonesia we all have different opinions which is alright. Maybe I see it because I am traveling allover Indonesia all the time and I have a lot of family in Indonesia and doing business there rather than sitting on one place.

And I see you both like sarcasm and a bit of cheekiness and there is nothing wrong with that. We Brits are a bit like that too.

As for being awarded the title of "Bali Expert" by Julien, thank you for pointing that out and my congratulations to you on that. You must have been blogging for a long time.

Have a good evening both of you.

Hi Baloushi, I bet you glad you asked the question now. Do you feel it has been answered?

hi All
yes i got the answer and i believe this will help to many others as well. Everyone has his own opinion based on the experience and being as forum member, we do respect all.

Hi all,
I live in Surabaya, East Java. I did my Kitas (1 year PR) in 2011 until now I got Kitap (5 year PR) in Kanim Waru (surabaya immigration office). So far they are very helpful and did not charge extra money whatsoever for their service. I paid normal price just like it is written on the announcement board. Also making the passport now is only 1 day if you submitted your documents online. Indonesian Immigration, at least the one in Surabaya, is trully clean from corruption. I heard also the one in Malang is good. I don't know in other places. My tips is....do not use agent. Normally it is the agent that ask soooooo much money. At first I wanted to use agent, but they charged me more than ten times of the normal price. For kitas that normally 700 thousand rupiah, that agent charged me 12 million rupiah. It is ridiculous. That's why me and my wife do all the bureuaucracy our selves. And it is good because now we know many things about laws and government rules.
The civil registry in our place is also free fron corruption. This January we did our document there gratis, as there was an announcement released from the department of internal affairs about that.
To the best of my knowledge, If you want to get pr without marry, get the sponsor from company or social organization. Good luck

No question about it, being quoted 12 million to process a KITAS is ridiculous, however, that's about normal for a KITAP.

Are you sure that the 12 million quote wasn't for a KITAP?

Good to hear that Surabaya immigration is running a clean shop.  So now we have Jakarta, Surabaya and Bali all running clean immigration operations.   

No, it was for kitas, because that was the first year I stayed in Indonesia. I did not bother asking the price for kitap. If they already charged me 12 million for kitas, imagine how much money for kitap 
For kitap I paid also the normal price, 3 million rupiah 

Hi Alfredo,

It's quite possible that someone in immigration accidentally gave you the wrong information on the KITAS fees as mistakes like these can happen. So did you pay the Rp12 million for the KITAS? Perhaps if you bring the official receipt to the accounting department they could refund you the balance that you were accidentally overcharged.

However, it is also conceivable that the higher than normal charge was to "fast-track" your KITAS processing. So that might be the reason for the very high fees. In Indonesia it is quite normal to pay a fee to get fast track service with immigration.

Regards,
Mike

"In Indonesia it is quite normal to pay a fee to get fast track service with immigration."

No it isn't, not anymore unless paying an extra fee for fast tracking is needed in order to avoid an overstay on one's existing visa.

Visa overstays are regarded as a serious matter here, and there are legitimate and reasonable situations where the applicant might not have been able to initiate the visa application process, either directly through immigration or by way of a visa agent.  Such cases are individually adjudicated by immigration on a case by case basis.  This isn’t anything even remotely akin to some VIP visa processing reserved for those who can afford the additional fees.

Alfredo, sorry to hear that your past visa agent took great advantage of you.  As you surely know, that wasn't anything akin to government corruption, rather it was unethical business...a horse of an entirely different color and something to be aware of anywhere in the world.

Ubudian wrote:

"In Indonesia it is quite normal to pay a fee to get fast track service with immigration."

No it isn't, not anymore unless paying an extra fee for fast tracking is needed in order to avoid an overstay on one's existing visa.

Visa overstays are regarded as a serious matter here, and there are legitimate and reasonable situations where the applicant might not have been able to initiate the visa application process, either directly through immigration or by way of a visa agent.  Such cases are individually adjudicated by immigration on a case by case basis.  This isn’t anything even remotely akin to some VIP visa processing reserved for those who can afford the additional fees.

Totally agree about visa overstays as being a serious matter.

“By the way, My family and I often pay fast-track money. We do not see it as corruption whether somebody from immigration or another government department makes money from it or not. We see it simply as a convenience and a way of life here.”

Thanks for clearing up the question I had about your earlier comment relating to visa agents as they pertain to corruption.

You agree…they don’t pertain one iota to corruption.

For the record, fast tracking for passports in Bali by Indonesians is also available but the extra fee is often waived when the passport is for an emergency…family death, illness, that sort of thing.

My 16 years of 24/7 full time living here has provided me with a whole lot of insight into the Indonesian psyche, (the Balinese in particular), and that is the overwhelming prevalence of just plain good common sense.  In my country of birth, bureaucrats are just that… bureaucrats, and it seems they are incapable of thought, feelings, or the courage to do what is right.  That isn’t the case here based on my experience, and I dare say, not the experience of many other long and full time expatriates residing here either.

To put this another way, I couldn't even imagine life in Singapore.   

Agents will take you for whatever they can get, as will people who sell bottles of water in Dieng.
You just have to make sure yo know the correct price and negotiate from there.
My first KITAS was a royal rip off by the immigration official but, since that first bad experience, there have been no further problems.
The official convinced me the fee was Rp8 million and, having zero experience, I paid up.
However, I recorded the conversations and played them back when I found out the truth.
He was moved very quickly after that.

Totally agree with Bali expert, there is no fast track service. When I applied kitas I spent one month, including the process in ditjen imigrasi kuningan. For kitap it was finished after 3 months. The officer in kanim waru appologized for the inconvenience because they were short of staff. But they guaranteed that I won't have problem with overstay.
My wife told me not to tip or giving extra money to the officer, unless they literally ask. Otherwise they'll get offended and could think I tried to bribe them or somthin. But Thank God, so far nobody asked us for that.

Corruption still high in indonesia, my view. How about the Police and the Kastam dept? Its funny you guys had a heavy debate on only ONE dept and forget on the others goverment depts!!!

Are you basing your opinion of corruption in Indonesia on first hand experience or just your own perception?

Based on my own experience garnered from about 16 years of 24/7 living in Indonesia I have never once paid off a policeman, nor a customs officer.  Through my family business we import and export quite a lot of material on a monthly basis so we are well exposed to customs corruption and pay offs, if in fact, that existed.  At one time, perhaps, but today, no!  The same applies with immigration…little or virtually no corruption and no payoffs to immigration authorities either.  Please keep in mind that the proceeding discussion wasn't concerning a government immigration officer, but rather it pertained to a private (in business) visa agent. 

As for police corruption you will find the vast majority of expats living here (and virtually all tourists) are much happier with paying an officer a fine for a traffic related infringement on the spot as opposed to wasting the better part of a day going to the police station, filing paper work and paying the fine there.  It’s a matter of expediency and if in fact the officer pockets the fine, we honestly don’t care about that. 

You have your MACC in Malaysia, and here we have our KPK.  Both are doing good jobs eradicating high level corruption, so, rather than the pot calling the kettle, “black” how about we just leave it at that?   

Moreover, this is probably the worse possible time for any “pot” to be calling any “kettle” black:

http://univers-alexia.blogspot.com/2014 … ss-of.html

I know a lot of Indonesians who are FURIOUS over this baloney.

Fair enough?  Peace and harmony for all?  Surely you will agree.   

It seems that some people think that corruption is virtually non existent in Bali apart from policemen pocketing money from tourists, and I am not sure whether we should call that corruption or a public service as it helps the tourists avoid wasting their time at the police station. Of course, foreigners don't mind paying out Rp50,000 to a policeman, but it does make you wonder how much money can be pocketed in a days work.

It's also good that the KPK is doing a good job of curbing corruption. However, having said that, the former head of the KPK, Antasari Azhar, was widely believed to be involved in all types of corruption including allowing Tommy Suharto to escape resulting in speculation that he was paid off. Antasari Azhar was actually was arrested in 2009 for murder and is serving an 18 years prison sentence.

Aside from that, we all know that corruption happens at very high levelsl in Tangerang, although perhaps we could call this nepotism rather than corruption?

So probably there are those who feel that corruption is virtually wiped out, and there are those who think it is still rampant.

Hi all,

Now we are getting off topic aren't we?

Armand
Expat.com Team

"Now we are getting off topic aren't we?"

Actually, no.  This whole thread has largely been about discussing corruption. 

That's just the way the topic ended up.

Yes I guess we are getting off topic. Apologies for that Armand.

We corrupted the corruption topic....?

A perfect example then of corruption in process.