I just want to know what vietnamese people think.

eodmatt wrote:

Except that in many countries, asking a woman her age is considered impolite.

Very true, but we're in VN where asking for the other person's age is a social requirement, not an impolite act. 

Several Uber drivers apologized to me because they called me "sister" in the phone and realized their mistake when they saw me in person because I'm definitely the same age as their parents.

The Uber driver this morning, half way through the conversation, changed the term "aunt" (cô) to "older aunt" (bác) when he found out I wasn't his parents' age, but a whole decade older.  Addressing me as "cô" was polite enough, but by changing to "bác", he paid me higher respect.

Ciambella wrote:

eodmatt wrote:

Except that in many countries, asking a woman her age is considered impolite.

Very true, but we're in VN where asking for the other person's age is a social requirement, not an impolite act. 

Several Uber drivers apologized to me because they called me "sister" in the phone and realized their mistake when they saw me in person because I'm definitely the same age as their parents.

The Uber driver this morning, half way through the conversation, changed the term "aunt" (cô) to "older aunt" (bác) when he found out I wasn't his parents' age, but a whole decade older.

Which just goes to prove that the Vietnamese language is a linguistic minefield. I prefer minefields with real land mines to negotiate!

THIGV wrote:

When adult Vietnamese ask how old you are it is more than just idle curiosity.  Unless the age difference is large, they need to know so that they will know what is the proper term of address.  In English we have only Mr/Mrs/Ms with no distinction for relative age.  In the US, and I imagine most of Europe, it is considered somewhat rude to ask someones age, but it is actually somewhat necessary in Vietnam. 

On the other hand, Americans routinely ask new acquaintances the question "What do you do?"  I am sure most ESL teachers have taught this idiom.  If you think about it, it is a way of determining ones social standing relative to the person being asked.  Vietnamese don't ask this question because standing is based on age rather than income or occupational status.

Well, since I have grey hair, baggy eyes a bit of a paunch, and am obviously no longer a teenager or even a young man I would have thought that it is pretty obvious that anyone could call me ông or even chú, with impunity. It doesn't take the brains of a rocket scientist to work it out.

Nope, the reason for people asking (they sometimes ask their children to ask me - even when they can speak English adequately themselves) that question, is pure nosiness and nothing else.

Ciambella wrote:

eodmatt wrote:

Except that in many countries, asking a woman her age is considered impolite.

Very true, but we're in VN where asking for the other person's age is a social requirement, not an impolite act. 

Several Uber drivers apologized to me because they called me "sister" in the phone and realized their mistake when they saw me in person because I'm definitely the same age as their parents.

The Uber driver this morning, half way through the conversation, changed the term "aunt" (cô) to "older aunt" (bác) when he found out I wasn't his parents' age, but a whole decade older.  Addressing me as "cô" was polite enough, but by changing to "bác", he paid me higher respect.

Well, since I have grey hair, baggy eyes a bit of a paunch, and am obviously no longer a teenager or even a young man I would have thought that it is pretty obvious that anyone could call me ông or even chú, with impunity. It doesn't take the brains of a rocket scientist to work it out.

Nope, the main reason for people asking (they sometimes ask their children to ask me - even when they can speak English adequately themselves ) that question, is pure nosiness and nothing else.

And yet Vietnamese will never ask you "What do you do?" as every American from Maine to California will.  Although I am an American, I can see how it is a pretty intrusive question.  I think it just boils down to the idea that certain questions are socially acceptable in one culture that may not be in another.

I have no problem telling anyone my age  but I won't tell them my income, which is often the next question. My standard reply is  "Enough to live on."1

With my several years staying in Vietnam I have some experience specially with Vietnamese male often asked same few questions if you are foreigners

1 where are you from?
2 Are you married?
3 how old are you?
4 what’s your job?
5 how much is your salary?

Is that comment questions? And you guys also has same experience as me?

THIGV wrote:

And yet Vietnamese will never ask you "What do you do?" as every American from Maine to California will.  Although I am an American, I can see how it is a pretty intrusive question.  I think it just boils down to the idea that certain questions are socially acceptable in one culture that may not be in another.

I am often asked what my job is and, because my job doesn’t appear to translate into anything which has a Vietnamese equivalent, I usualy say that I am a company director. Next question is usualy “which company” with the expectation of the answer: Chevron, or similar.

Collwing - Yes, that's the standard list of questions. They often skip, "Are you married?" and go directly to  "How many children do you have?" And at my age,  "How many grandchildren do yoy have?"

Wash your mind first.

Emma Resident wrote:

Wash your mind first.

To whom are you referring?

Collwing wrote:

With my several years staying in Vietnam I have some experience specially with Vietnamese male often asked same few questions if you are foreigners

1 where are you from?
2 Are you married?
3 how old are you?
4 what’s your job?
5 how much is your salary?

Is that comment questions? And you guys also has same experience as me?

Curious aren’t they.
IMO it’s all about financial profiling.   

Some people  want to know if your “worth” being associated with.   And this also is the case in a lot of cultures, not just here.    Those questions can really mean......

1. Are you from a nice rich developed country .
2. Is there anyone helping you spend your money
3. How long have you got to live before I can inherit your wealth
4. How reliable is your income supply
5. That’s a no brainer.😆

Yogi has often thought of getting a business card that just says...

My name is Yogi from Australia.
What I do for a living, what I earn & how I spend it ....is none  of your f#@&n business. 🤓

I occasionally use an old American poem :

My name is Johnny Johnson
I come from Wisconsin
I work in a lumber yard there
When I walk down the street
The folks that I meet, say
Hello what’s your name
And I say.....

My name is Johnny Johnson
I come from Wisconsin

Etc

I think they go through the same song and dance amongst their own people when they meet. One must first learn who is the superior person in the conversation. Or at least that is what I have been told by the locals. But this is true in most Asian cultures. They will lie about who and what they have to try and one-up you.
Personally I get tired of the money aspect of it all. I about want to vomit when they keep wanting money, your watch, the quart of milk you just bought.

Vagabondone wrote:

I think they go through the same song and dance amongst their own people when they meet. One must first learn who is the superior person in the conversation. Or at least that is what I have been told by the locals. But this is true in most Asian cultures. They will lie about who and what they have to try and one-up you.
Personally I get tired of the money aspect of it all. I about want to vomit when they keep wanting money, your watch, the quart of milk you just bought.

I dont get them wanting my watch - its a Rolex Submariner that I bought some time in the last century and they automatically think its a fake - nor the milk that I just bought. But funnily enough I have had a couple of occasions when they behave in a most peculiar fashion.

Take the case of the X family, consisting of a Vietnamese married couple and their 12 year old daughter. The wife is a lawyer and the husband is a manager with a large company. Having known them for several years, we invited them to join us for Christmas dinner.

Turns out that the daughter - about 13 years old - is a robot. She goes to school for about 14 hours a day including evening English classes, french classes and music classes. She hardly speaks, doesn't know how door handles work and has never seen a sliding mosquitos screen door with magnetic catches. I have never seen her laugh or even smile.

The husband has to dash off to attend a sudden death in the family and we never see him again.

Christmas day lunch and dinner are a great success, our two guests have never experienced an English traditional Christmas and there was food of all kinds, wine, beer and spirits, music, christmas crackers to be pulled, a flaming Christmas pudding (Troi Oi, look out, it's on fire), games and puzzles. They made full use of the swimming pool here, walked by the rivers and had such a good time that they stayed on uninvited for 3 days.

Upon leaving they reported back to mutual friends that they wouldn't be coming to visit us again as our house was terrible (My dear, even the (hardwood) doors are plastic), the food inedible, there was no wine or beer and the place is a dump.

Odd bunch of creatures, aint they?

eodmatt wrote:

Well, since I have grey hair, baggy eyes a bit of a paunch, and am obviously no longer a teenager or even a young man I would have thought that it is pretty obvious that anyone could call me ông or even chú, with impunity. It doesn't take the brains of a rocket scientist to work it out.

But I thought chú was reserved for someone who's about the same age as your father, but is a friend of your father. A stranger could never call you chú, could he/she? As for ông, well, that's a risky one because there is high risk of "insulting" someone by making feel too old. Heck, how many times have called a lady "chào cô" only to be told she is in fact a chị. Doesn't seem so straight forward to me!

Blame Matt for that; his brain transcends simple stuff

..like rocket science...     

WillyBaldy wrote:

But I thought chú was reserved for someone who's about the same age as your father, but is a friend of your father. A stranger could never call you chú, could he/she? As for ông, well, that's a risky one because there is high risk of "insulting" someone by making feel too old. Heck, how many times have called a lady "chào cô" only to be told she is in fact a chị. Doesn't seem so straight forward to me!

"Chú" is uncle, your mother or father's younger brother.  Yes, a stranger can call you "chú" if  s/he considers you his/her uncle.

However, if a person who is older than you calls you "chú", then he considers you his younger brother, not his uncle (duh.)  He wouldn't call you "em" (younger sibling) because men do not call each other "em" unless they're related.  Only women do that.

"Ông" can be used for any adult male who is old enough to be called "Mr." or "grandfather"  (it's a huge difference between the two terms, isn't it?)   He can be younger than you, but if you address him as "ông", you're setting a clear boundary in the interaction, essentially saying familiarity is not welcome  (very useful if you were a woman).

When a woman wants you to call her "chị" instead of "cô", she means either one of these two things:
1/ "I'm not old enough to be your aunt", or
2/ "I'm married so cô is not a proper way to address me, but I don't want you to call me bà because it makes me feel old, so I'm giving you the permission to call me chị (sister)."

"Cô", as you can see from that explanation, means both "Miss" and "aunt".  "Cô" is also the way to address your REAL younger sister, doesn't matter whether she's married or single.  It's the most respected (but still affectionate) term that a brother can use to address a sister.

Ciambella wrote:

WillyBaldy wrote:

But I thought chú was reserved for someone who's about the same age as your father, but is a friend of your father. A stranger could never call you chú, could he/she? As for ông, well, that's a risky one because there is high risk of "insulting" someone by making feel too old. Heck, how many times have called a lady "chào cô" only to be told she is in fact a chị. Doesn't seem so straight forward to me!

"Chú" is uncle, your mother or father's younger brother.  Yes, a stranger can call you "chú" if  s/he considers you your uncle.

However, if a person who is older than you calls you "chú", then he considers you his younger brother, not his uncle (duh.)  He wouldn't call you "em" (younger sibling) because men do not call each other "em" unless they're related.  Only women do that.

"Ông" can be used for any adult male who is old enough to be called "Mr." or "grandfather"  (it's a huge difference between the two terms, isn't it?)   He can be younger than you, but if you address him as "ông", you're setting a clear boundary in the interaction, essentially saying familiarity is not welcome  (very useful if you were a woman).

When a woman wants you to call her "chị" instead of "cô", she means either one of these two things:
1/ "I'm not old enough to be your aunt", or 2/ "I'm married so cô is not a proper way to address me, but I don't want you to call me bà because it makes me feel old, so why don't you call me sister instead?"

Cô, as you can see from that explanation, means both "Miss" and "aunt", or also "younger sister" but this can only be used by a real brother to a real sister, and in this case, it doesn't matter whether the sister is married or single, the term is still the same.

Thanks for the info, very informative. These things are not always clear, I remember a few of my Vietnamese friends telling me (almost in panic!) not to call someone "ông" because he was not that old. But I'd definitely would have called them mister. I feel I get different answers based on who I'm asking 

Also, the thing about "Chú" also being a "friend of your father", is it true or not? That's what I've been told by two Vietnamese born in Saigon. What do you consider uncle?

PS: So yeah had a Skype discussion with one of these friends and you're right, to be 'polite' you'll call them uncle, in some circumstances. I give trying to be too logical with this as it's so very different than Western culture, where you'd never call someone uncle unless he's either your uncle *or* very, very close to you.

WillyBaldy wrote:

Also, the thing about "Chú" also being a "friend of your father", is it true or not? That's what I've been told by two Vietnamese born in Saigon. What do you consider uncle?

No, it's not correct in any part of the country, the North, the South, or the Central. 

A friend of your father can be called chú or bác, depends on his age.  But a stranger can be called the same way, friendship with your father is not a requirement.  You address someone a certain way when you consider that person to be of equal rank with someone in your family who is of the same age.  If he's younger than your father, then he's the same age group with your uncle, thus you address him as chú.  It's a term of respect, not a proclamation of a relationship of any kind.

At my age, I don't call anyone chú, unless that person is in his 90s.

Ciambella wrote:

A friend of your father can be called chú or bác, depends on his age.  But a stranger can be called the same way, friendship with your father is not a requirement.

Yeah I think part of the misunderstanding is that they meant that a friend of your father can be called "Chú", not that "Chú" has to be a friend of your father.

My spouse is called chú by every adult in the area.  He's fine with that, but has a bit of a problem with "cảm ơn".  I told him that it's not sincere to say cảm ơn without addressing the person to whom he says thanks.  "How do I know what to call them?"  Well, he's lucky not to have to learn the dozen different ways to address a person.  Since everyone calls him chú, he can correctly call all of them "cháu."  He's now very happily saying "Cảm ơn cháu" to everyone -- men, women, married, single, adults, and children.

I did warn him, however, that in the rare case when he needs to thank someone who is older than he, make sure to add "ông" or "bà" to the cảm ơn.  Easy peasy.

Ciambella wrote:

He's now very happily saying "Cảm ơn cháu" to everyone -- men, women, married, single, adults, and children.

Wow, never heard that term, cháu (going up?). My head hurts.

EDIT: Well, my ex Vietnamese wife is telling me on Skype with disdain that mostly the North will use cháu, and that they "the real South Vietnamese" will use con. See? Can't win in this world, opinion seems to change depending on who you talk with.

WillyBaldy wrote:

Well, my ex Vietnamese wife is telling me on Skype with disdain that mostly the North will use cháu, and that they "the real South Vietnamese" will use con. See? Can't win in this world, opinion seems to change depending on who you talk with.

Cháu is the Northerners' way to differentiate between nephews/nieces and "con" (children).  "Con" is the Southerners' way to put everyone together in the same group; your nephews, your children, and your grandchildren are all of the same rank.  The Northerners see the difference between nieces and grandchildren, the Southerners don't.  There's nothing wrong with either way, it's just that one group is more precise than the other.

It's simpler to address oneself as "con" than addressing someone else as "con".  The nuance is that the other person may not consider himself your son, just your nephew, and calling him your child may not sit very well with him. 

A small example: my parents, if they were still alive, would have been 116 and 105.  My oldest brother is 85, thus, if a person in his early 90s calls me "con", that would make me feel a bit awkward.   I could consider him my uncle, but no way he would be my father.  When I call myself cháu, I mean the term the exact way it's meant to be: niece, not daughter, and I expect him to address me thus.

WillyBaldy wrote:

my ex Vietnamese wife

Willy:  is your wife no longer Vietnamese?  Sorry but I couldn't resist.    Maybe not as complex as Vietnamese, I guess you could say that English has a few relationship complexities of its own.

Another example:  My oldest niece here in Saigon is 14 years older than I.  Three of her younger siblings are older than I, one is of my age (we grew up best friends and we still are), and three are a few years younger than I.  If we were Southerners, they would call themselves "con" and I would call them "con" as well, wouldn't I?  Do you see how impossible that is to call someone who is older than you "child", or call youself "child" when talking to someone who is the same age with your much younger sibling?

"Con" is such a tender and loving term, which IMO, shouldn't be used indiscriminately and illogically.   But then, it's the Southern tradition, and tradition is something one does not argue or find fault with.  It is what it is; accept it and move on.

BTW, cháu isn't going up. If you meant climb, it's leo (Southern) or trèo (Northern).

I spent a lot of time in VN and 90%+ of the time, my wife and I are always greeted with or looked at with smiles.  Never had issues except for, that's right, jealous people.  The jealous teenagers with giggle and use the most foul language you can imagine, very disrespectful.  The older women are not much better, actually bitter with jealousy.  The men, they are jealous, but in a good way and smile. 

Just smile and keep walking, it is not important what these jealous people say or do, they are not going to change.

Quick story.  1 year during TET my wife and I are walking along the market at night and somehow another girl got separated from her husband for a brief moment.  At that moment, my wife hugging my left, I walk past this girl and she was looking at items for sale and did not turn around, but she proceeded to grab and hug my right arm as we continued to walk and she went along with us without looking up.  I could not help myself and started to laugh.  She then turned to her left and saw me and she was in shock.  My wife and I were smiling so she had not choice but to smile, but with a surprised look.  Knowing she was obviously shopping with her husband, she looked back and we looked back and sure enough, there was the husband about 10 feet behind us and we just smiled and laughed.  Luckily, he was a good sport and saw everything so he just smiled and laughed right back. 

I am sure to this day he cracks at her for that moment, I would.   

Ciambella wrote:

BTW, cháu isn't going up. If you meant climb, it's leo (Southern) or trèo (Northern).

Haha, I just meant, the accent means the tone is going up. 

Ciambella wrote:

WillyBaldy wrote:

But I thought chú was reserved for someone who's about the same age as your father, but is a friend of your father. A stranger could never call you chú, could he/she? As for ông, well, that's a risky one because there is high risk of "insulting" someone by making feel too old. Heck, how many times have called a lady "chào cô" only to be told she is in fact a chị. Doesn't seem so straight forward to me!

"Chú" is uncle, your mother or father's younger brother.  Yes, a stranger can call you "chú" if  s/he considers you his/her uncle.

However, if a person who is older than you calls you "chú", then he considers you his younger brother, not his uncle (duh.)  He wouldn't call you "em" (younger sibling) because men do not call each other "em" unless they're related.  Only women do that.

"Ông" can be used for any adult male who is old enough to be called "Mr." or "grandfather"  (it's a huge difference between the two terms, isn't it?)   He can be younger than you, but if you address him as "ông", you're setting a clear boundary in the interaction, essentially saying familiarity is not welcome  (very useful if you were a woman).

When a woman wants you to call her "chị" instead of "cô", she means either one of these two things:
1/ "I'm not old enough to be your aunt", or
2/ "I'm married so cô is not a proper way to address me, but I don't want you to call me bà because it makes me feel old, so I'm giving you the permission to call me chị (sister)."

"Cô", as you can see from that explanation, means both "Miss" and "aunt".  "Cô" is also the way to address your REAL younger sister, doesn't matter whether she's married or single.  It's the most respected (but still affectionate) term that a brother can use to address a sister.

Indeed! And many people refer to my wife, from the mail man to the bank clerks, from the bus driver to the Uber driver and more as,“Chi”

And non of them ask her age before doing so.

So as I said, Ong, An, Chu ..... All can work for me. Bazza may be right in that I transcend rocket science - because in fact , rockets and dealing with them are part of my job, although I try to keep them on the ground rather than racing them to the sky.

Another interesting thing to me anyway, is the way  that Vietnamese people use subterfuge to show off. Two nights ago I met a lawyer at a street party who was so interested in talking to me that he bade me walk with him to his car a short distance away to “get his cigarettes”.

His objective of course wasn’t the cigarettes but rather to proudly show off his new car.

The Vietnamese, their culture and their language are as complicated and convoluted as they wish to make it. But as my wife often remarks on encountering examples of over use of formality, “bullsh*t”’, a term she learned from me and one that she uses quite often nowadays.

And this isn’t rocket science either: you can cut through the crap by ignoring the question about your age and saying to anyone who asks the question - call me Bazza (or use your own name).   or you can tell kids that “An” is ok, or “Chu” if they are friends kids.

And to make business friendships really firm, accept someones business card with one hand and put it straight into the back pocket of your trousers without reading it. That’ll really impress the card donor.

I know that the very affectionate 4 year old girl neighbor always called me ông Tây when we met in the hallway or elevator.  Her older brother, about 7,  found it amusing, as did I.

eodmatt wrote:

So as I said, Ong, An, Chu ..... All can work for me.

I think I'd be calling you "Ông già" then 

WillyBaldy wrote:

eodmatt wrote:

So as I said, Ong, An, Chu ..... All can work for me.

I think I'd be calling you "Ông già" then 

Up to you - in fact as a radio ham i’d Take it as a form of respectful address

I live somewhere else (Bangkok, Thailand), and was really just glancing through this section, but I wanted to pass on an experience that might relate. 

I was never really self-conscious about being a foreigner here but to some extent it is obvious to other people.  There is a stereotype here about foreigners marrying Thai women, or a range of them, probably not completely different than the ones in Vietnam.

Not really on that subject, over time I just stopped paying attention to that related to other people.  It might not have been so much related to moving above it as a concern but as much just moving on.  Now people seem to not make much of it themselves, although part of that could just relate to what I notice.

People index problems or issues for others in ways we can't easily notice; a lot of what we experience is really occurring at a subconscious level.  There's a chance that I really am communicating--subconsciously--that there is no concern to relate to by being less self-conscious.  Does that make sense?

bkk tea blog wrote:

I live somewhere else (Bangkok, Thailand), and was really just glancing through this section, but I wanted to pass on an experience that might relate. 

I was never really self-conscious about being a foreigner here but to some extent it is obvious to other people.  There is a stereotype here about foreigners marrying Thai women, or a range of them, probably not completely different than the ones in Vietnam.

Not really on that subject, over time I just stopped paying attention to that related to other people.  It might not have been so much related to moving above it as a concern but as much just moving on.  Now people seem to not make much of it themselves, although part of that could just relate to what I notice.

People index problems or issues for others in ways we can't easily notice; a lot of what we experience is really occurring at a subconscious level.  There's a chance that I really am communicating--subconsciously--that there is no concern to relate to by being less self-conscious.  Does that make sense?

Yes.

However, Just a few days ago, one of our neighbours who rides his bicycle around the place here every morning and who is meticulously polite in saying "Xin Chao" as he passes me for the first time  as I exercrse in the mornings,  was extremely rude.

On this occasion I had my wife with me as we were exercising together and as he passed by us he said "Xin Chao" to me as usual and immediately afterwards, said to my wife Vietnamese: "How long have you been sleeping with that one, then?"

The inference being that she is a prostitute.

As my wife has told me often enough - many Vietnamese are "like a knife, sharp on both sides", the equivalent of the English expression, "two faced".

Different people have different takes on this kind of thing but I think the way culture plays out that people could be more or less rude in different places, related to thinking things that aren't very nice and expressing them.  That said people are nice and not so nice everywhere, and since I've only been to Vietnam a couple of times it doesn't make sense for me to pass on any impression related to there, to even have a guess about generalities tied to culture there.

eodmatt wrote:

As my wife has told me often enough - many Vietnamese are "like a knife, sharp on both sides", the equivalent of the English expression, "two faced".

Yeah your story is similar with what I was going through in Vietnam sometimes with my ex wife a few years back. Also, another classic was "Hey dear sister, you are walking around with a gold mine, why not share with a sister, don't be cheap with your people". So yeah, suddently she is a "sister" that should share her husband's money with the whole country. Vietnamese (in general, personal experience) are far from being generous with strangers but are very keen on strangers being generous with them!

WillyBaldy wrote:

eodmatt wrote:

As my wife has told me often enough - many Vietnamese are "like a knife, sharp on both sides", the equivalent of the English expression, "two faced".

Yeah your story is similar with what I was going through in Vietnam sometimes with my ex wife a few years back. Also, another classic was "Hey dear sister, you are walking around with a gold mine, why not share with a sister, don't be cheap with your people". So yeah, suddently she is a "sister" that should share her husband's money with the whole country. Vietnamese (in general, personal experience) are far from being generous with strangers but are very keen on strangers being generous with them!

The sad part, these people fail to realize that these attitudes are why they continue to be poor.

You got that right Vndreamer,
Attitude is everything.   The Japanese have been described as “annoyingly polite & efficent “ in almost everything they do.

What a difference that stretch of ocean makes.   😆

After nearly 7 years here, I’m still trying to get my head around the lack of gratitude and level of inconsiderate behaviour.   It appears that no matter what you give , do for, or buy someone here.....it’s never enough. 

It’s all about what’s coming next.

..the passed/past part..?

"I'm noticing that they go out of their way to make me feel welcome... and I'm going out of my way to be a good guest, like I would in a family home, not a hotel. "

  Be careful; you are (not only) a part, but a 'citizen of the world'

Many (most) of the expats here are only interested in expressing their own opinions, bias' & values they garnered in kindergarten without bothering about their host nation's cultural and social (often) trivial differences.
                     .. so they wonder why they get back what they give...

   ..then there are people like you; able to think their way out of an open paper bag...

                   Welcome to (your) Utopia.   Viet Nam needs people like you

Bazza139 wrote:

..the passed/past part..?

"I'm noticing that they go out of their way to make me feel welcome... and I'm going out of my way to be a good guest, like I would in a family home, not a hotel. "

  Be careful; you are (not only) a part, but a 'citizen of the world'

Many (most) of the expats here are only interested in expressing their own opinions, bias' & values they garnered in kindergarten without bothering about their host nation's cultural and social (often) trivial differences.
                     .. so they wonder why they get back what they give...

   ..then there are people like you; able to think their way out of an open paper bag...

                   Welcome to (your) Utopia.   Viet Nam needs people like you

Some sweeping statements there from Bazza about “expats” !