Engineering Bolts and Nuts...where to buy?

fluffy2560 wrote:

Oh yeah, I know what you were thinking.  Shows what a challenge it was to get these buggers off.  I had to use the angle grinder on one.  The other I used a reverse "biting" socket on until it sheared off.   New 10.9 bolt beside the offending bolt (I'll have to shorten it - easy). Maybe call it a BLT.

Still, after considerable effort, lots of grunting and pulling, I got my nuts off and I feel a lot better for it now.

Those look pretty rusted. Not surprised one sheered off. I have never tried heating to remove stuck bolts, but seen it mentioned a lot. Ever tried that? If so, does it work on rusted bolts?

fidobsa wrote:

Since this thread is about nuts and bolts for fixing a Yank gas guzzler car, he should be showing us his star bangled spanners!

My largest spanner is my adjustable, which goes to 25 cm. And I do know, being a Yank myself, that Yankee products can exceed this size......

klsallee wrote:

fidobsa wrote:

Since this thread is about nuts and bolts for fixing a Yank gas guzzler car, he should be showing us his star bangled spanners!

My largest spanner is my adjustable, which goes to 25 cm. And I do know, being a Yank myself, that Yankee products can exceed this size......

Oh yeah, is this one of these many things are bigger in the USA things then?   

Might be bigger but is it just torque'ing the torque?

klsallee wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

Oh yeah, I know what you were thinking.  Shows what a challenge it was to get these buggers off.  I had to use the angle grinder on one.  The other I used a reverse "biting" socket on until it sheared off.   New 10.9 bolt beside the offending bolt (I'll have to shorten it - easy). Maybe call it a BLT.

Still, after considerable effort, lots of grunting and pulling, I got my nuts off and I feel a lot better for it now.

Those look pretty rusted. Not surprised one sheered off. I have never tried heating to remove stuck bolts, but seen it mentioned a lot. Ever tried that? If so, does it work on rusted bolts?

Yes, heating really does help but I couldn't get in there with a gas welding set or a blowtorch.  These bolts were holding on parts of the suspension which have a rubber bush (USA: bushing)  on it so I'd have melted it.   The main times I've used heat is on exhaust pipe fittings or where you know you are going to replace the item anyway.  Exhaust pipe nuts rust up terribly and sometimes the grinder is the only way.

fluffy2560 wrote:

Exhaust pipe nuts rust up terribly and sometimes the grinder is the only way.

I have an antique, hand forged security bar for a cellar door that I wanted to reuse. Even the eye bolts used to attach it were hand forged and die cut for the nuts. All fully rusted up. I literally cut the bar out of the rotten wood by cutting the wood. Afraid to use an angle grinder (or it is angel grinder, because those things at times are a god-send) on the nuts in case I damaged the bolt. Application of WD-40, once a week for two months, giving the nuts a try each time, finally released everything with a wrench. But of course, not everyone has two months to spend on a vanity project like that.

klsallee wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

Exhaust pipe nuts rust up terribly and sometimes the grinder is the only way.

I have an antique, hand forged security bar for a cellar door that I wanted to reuse. Even the eye bolts used to attach it were hand forged and die cut for the nuts. All fully rusted up. I literally cut the bar out of the rotten wood by cutting the wood. Afraid to use an angle grinder (or it is angel grinder, because those things at times are a god-send) on the nuts in case I damaged the bolt. Application of WD-40, once a week for two months, giving the nuts a try each time, finally released everything with a wrench. But of course, not everyone has two months to spend on a vanity project like that.

Might not be PC and I don't know exactly you application, but another way is to tack weld a nut onto the nuts, used that to get some torque onto them, undone them, then used the grinder on the nuts to remove the temporary nuts.

fluffy2560 wrote:

Might not be PC and I don't know exactly you application, but another way is to tack weld a nut onto the nuts, used that to get some torque onto them, undone them, then used the grinder on the nuts to remove the temporary nuts.

Being a forged bolt, uncertain of the metal quality, I was afraid of sheering it by applying force.

I guess I could also have used a Iron oxide solvent. In the US, I probably would have done that. But that would have been too complicated here. Am not even sure were to buy such chemicals or what I would do with the extra. So took the slow route.

klsallee wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

Might not be PC and I don't know exactly you application, but another way is to tack weld a nut onto the nuts, used that to get some torque onto them, undone them, then used the grinder on the nuts to remove the temporary nuts.

Being a forged bolt, uncertain of the metal quality, I was afraid of sheering it by applying force.

I guess I could also have used a Iron oxide solvent. In the US, I probably would have done that. But that would have been too complicated here. Am not even sure were to buy such chemicals or what I would do with the extra. So took the slow route.

If it was forged it's probably wrought iron which is soft.  But it can be welded - probably enough to get some purchase on it.  But yes, there's a chance of shearing it off.

If you mean rust remover for iron oxide solvent, yes, you can get it here. I used some on my car over weekend.  It works pretty good.  It's just a mild acid.  Took off some paint and rust on the car. I used brake cleaner solvent  (cheap - 800 Ft for a spray tin) to hose it down as I didn't want to wait for it to dry out before I painted the car bit in question.  I could have used a heat gun to evaporate it but it disperses quickly enough and doesn't leave moisture.   

You could possibly have used the rust remover to clean up the surfaces so you could see what was going on underneath any paint.  Just a thought.

fluffy2560 wrote:

If you mean rust remover for iron oxide solvent, yes, you can get it here.

Yes, meant that. Good to know it is available here. Will keep that in mind. Don't do a lot of metal work myself. More a carpenter type. But I do like salvaging old iron things here, there seems to be a lot of it floating around.

klsallee wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

If you mean rust remover for iron oxide solvent, yes, you can get it here.

Yes, meant that. Good to know it is available here. Will keep that in mind. Don't do a lot of metal work myself. More a carpenter type. But I do like salvaging old iron things here, there seems to be a lot of it floating around.

It's always good to keep a stock of metal ready for those small jobs - any bits can be reused (I made my winter tyre  wall brackets from an old TV table).  I also maintain a pile of wood for those wood based times.  One difference between metal and wood is that you can add to material a lot easier than one can to wood. Mistakes are harder to overcome.  With a grinder you can hide mistakes (and I make a lot).

Welding involves the filler rods melting into the surface of the target object.  So it becomes one material. No-one has invented a wood welding machine yet as far as I know.

It's well worth getting a small inverter welder and having a go. Obviously getting the right safety gear and having an abundance of caution is required.  Youtube and Google are friends for learning.  It's definitely a skill that can be leveraged domestically.  I am at the point that I can make quite good joints and I can fill in holes.  So I can repair fences, make brackets, weld on hinges etc.   

Being a kind of welding nerd, I often look at commercial welding in airports and offices and wonder how they manage to make that look so nicely done.  I've got a long way to go.

fluffy2560 wrote:

One difference between metal and wood is that you can add to material a lot easier than one can to wood. Mistakes are harder to overcome.  With a grinder you can hide mistakes (and I make a lot).

Welding involves the filler rods melting into the surface of the target object.  So it becomes one material. No-one has invented a wood welding machine yet as far as I know.

In wood, it depends on the repair. For example, easy to fill in an incorrectly drilled hole in wood with a dowel and some glue. Surface finishing or detailed work, on the other hand, are indeed a one off issue. Mess up there and one is often in trouble. But that just lets me learn patience, and to take my time. But, if I make a mistake.... well I have a wood stove so nobody sees my mistakes. 

fluffy2560 wrote:

It's well worth getting a small inverter welder and having a go. Obviously getting the right safety gear and having an abundance of caution is required.

I love electricity. Motors. Electromagnetism. Electronics. Etc. It was even the one topic in physics I actually excelled at.

Yet it scares the living crap out of me too when scaled up to household current. I can not explain that.

I am okay with brazing. I am actually very good at it. And would have no problem with trying out oxy-fuel welding. But still look at arc welding with high personal suspicion. 

fluffy2560 wrote:

Being a kind of welding nerd, I often look at commercial welding in airports and offices and wonder how they manage to make that look so nicely done.  I've got a long way to go.

I am an absolute welding nerd. But an arm chair one so far. Love watching youtube videos of welding, forging and blacksmithing.

fluffy2560 wrote:

...  One difference between metal and wood is that you can add to material a lot easier than one can to wood. Mistakes are harder to overcome.  With a grinder you can hide mistakes (and I make a lot).

Welding involves the filler rods melting into the surface of the target object.  So it becomes one material. No-one has invented a wood welding machine yet as far as I know.

It's well worth getting a small inverter welder and having a go. Obviously getting the right safety gear and having an abundance of caution is required.  Youtube and Google are friends for learning.  It's definitely a skill that can be leveraged domestically.  I am at the point that I can make quite good joints and I can fill in holes.  So I can repair fences, make brackets, weld on hinges etc.   

Being a kind of welding nerd, I often look at commercial welding in airports and offices and wonder how they manage to make that look so nicely done.  I've got a long way to go.

I think a lot of those perfect welds are done using CNC Tig machines. I sometimes call my Mig welder my "putting on saw". I've had it for some years, mainly for repairing rotten bits on cars. I had previously borrowed a machine but when I bought my own elderly Einhel Mig I had to modify it before I could use it. The early ones were what they called "live wire", meaning the trigger only controlled the wire feed motor, not the inverter. This made it very difficult to use because you had to pull the trigger and touch the wire to the job at exactly the same time. I fitted a relay so the trigger now turns on the spark and the wire feed.

Mig is good for thin metal but a stick welder is better for thicker stuff like fences and angle iron, so I bought a small stick welder a few months ago. With Mig you just touch the wire to the thing you want to weld, pull the trigger and start welding. With stick you have this strange business of "striking an arc". I'm told it is much like striking a match but so far I've never managed to do it. I wanted to repair some broken bits on my fence but ended up doing it with the Mig because I could not start an arc. It could be that they normally use gas welding when making these fence panels (I avoid calling them wrought iron because that is a special material made by blacksmiths and these fences are actually mild steel).  In my case the fence is partly made using chain link fencing with each wire end welded to the main framework. That would involve hundreds of small welds so having to strike an arc each time would be a pain in the euphemism!

klsallee wrote:

I am okay with brazing. I am actually very good at it. And would have no problem with trying out oxy-fuel welding. But still look at arc welding with high personal suspicion. 
....
I am an absolute welding nerd. But an arm chair one so far. Love watching youtube videos of welding, forging and blacksmithing.

Oh dear, now I'm going to witter on for a bit as this is a bit of a hobby....

Oxy acetelyene welding is a pain in the rear end.   I've had my oxy set for about 15 years and I've used it about 10 times for welding.  It's a nuisance because you always need gas for it and trying to get the bottles is a complete and utter nuisance.  It used to be very primitive with only bottle rental available and no ownership possibilities. I only wanted small bottles (about 1/3 the size of "normal" bottles). I just don't use it enough to do bottle rentals.

We did eventually (after some years) find someone who would sell us the small bottles with the contents.  That was at least 10 years ago.  I am still using the same bottles and the same gas from way back then!   It's good for rusted bolts and brazing but I wouldn't bother otherwise.  You can get away with Mapp gas on a lot of jobs that need hotter flames but it's finding the Mapp gas bottles at a reasonable price I'm having trouble with.   One major issue is that it's an open flame and that'll burn other stuff around.  On the other hand, it's possible to do finer welding if you are good at it (and I mean very very good).  My set is covered up in the shed. I only get it out when I really need it.

On the other hand, I've used my cheap type inverter "stick" welder many times.  So much so, I am considering moving into getting Tig welding attachments which can do finer work and doesn't need so much filler rod.  I have a Mig welder with reel fed filler wire but it's so crap - uses bottled gas well. It's a nuisance so I haven't used it for years.

For those odd jobs, it's worth trying a stick welder and doing some test jobs.  Getting the current right is an issue and selecting the rod sizes is critical.  Of course safe thinking is necessity and preparing the work area for safe working.  Always think twice or thrice about what could go wrong.

Leather gloves up your arms (can spark some distance), wear proper footwear (drips go straight through rubber), leather apron (sparks bounce off) and best idea - auto darkening helmet (totally worth the money - great bit of kit). 

During the summer I built myself a heavy welding table - metal surface the work piece can rest on  so that can be the earthed electrode.  And of course I made the table using the welder! Works well. I can easily put something like a car axle on it (if I can lift it on there).

If you like welding, forging etc and like wood, you will like  soda blasting.  I've got one of these really cheap machines, I have it assembled but don't have any soda to try it yet. I plan to zap some furniture with it in the Spring.   Check it out: Soda Blasting Furniture.  How cool is that?  Real labour saving!

fidobsa wrote:

...  With stick you have this strange business of "striking an arc". I'm told it is much like striking a match but so far I've never managed to do it. I wanted to repair some broken bits on my fence but ended up doing it with the Mig because I could not start an arc. It could be that they normally use gas welding when making these fence panels (I avoid calling them wrought iron because that is a special material made by blacksmiths and these fences are actually mild steel).  In my case the fence is partly made using chain link fencing with each wire end welded to the main framework. That would involve hundreds of small welds so having to strike an arc each time would be a pain in the euphemism!

Lots of small welds is just opportunity for more practice! 

Sorry if the following is grandma, eggs and sucking...

What I do to get the arc going is to break off a small bit of the flux - 3-5mm - off the end of the stick - using pliers.   Then all one does is  lightly "scratch" at an angle the surface of the work piece.  If it sticks or doesn't strike, there's not enough current or the material is too thick (same difference), so turn up the current a touch to see if that makes a difference.   Once it's going, it's a easier to keep it going.

Naturally one needs a good earth. I stick a pair of mole grips on normally and then attach the earth to that as I can get a better contact with mole grips.  I also use the grinder to get a spot which is clear to bare metal.  Once you have a good earth, striking the arc is much easier - same as MIG  prep.

I also use both hands to start (my hands aren't so steady and sometimes the arc surprises me) so I can try keep it the right distance from the start.  Once you've got the arc struck, it's almost possible to pull back a few mm to see what is going on as you move the stick on the workpiece.   

Too much current and it'll burn a hole in the item. Then there's the "dabbing" technique to fill in holes.  I've become quite good at doing that now - as I usually messed it up before and made holes.  Hole filling is a kind of odd thing because it seems to keep a kind of longer distance arc going which you dab at the hole, working around the edges, gradually filling in the material.  If there's good penetration, the angle grinder can cover up the mistakes (and painting fills in too).

After welding I give it a few whacks with the welding hammer/chipper (safety googles!) to see what is under the flux.  It's usually obvious if there's a decent level of penetration and it's "safe".

Usually I use two types of rods: 1.5mm2 and 2.5mm2 for mild steel.  The smaller ones I use for finer work and the larger for these bigger jobs like heavy duty brackets. 

But the thing that made the biggest difference to me getting it right was the auto darkening helmet.  Suddenly I wasn't working blind and relying on the arc to even see the work.  The dog has to be able to see the rabbit. 

My next hobby job (apart from car repairs - stopped for parts delivery from Germany) will be to make a wheeled metal base for a poshed up, insulated dog kennel.  It's 1" angle iron on the bottom with flat bar cross pieces for rigidity.  Underneath will be flat bar, bent to the correct angles  and drilled to form axle supports and welded to the main frame.  A tube (or rod) will form the axle although I am having trouble finding the right tube (rod is a bit heavy).  Don't like to buy stuff.  The 10" wheels are from an old sack barrow/trolley and has plastic bushes.  Then the dog house will then be bolted to the wheeled frame. 

Only need then a dog to put in it.

Obviously the dog is not the point as far as I am concerned, it's the welding and construction.

fluffy2560 wrote:

Oxy acetelyene welding is a pain in the rear end.  I can easily put something like a car axle on it (if I can lift it on there).

Maybe I will then stick to wood working and brazing. And continue to farm out all the rest (thus helping with the local economy).

fluffy2560 wrote:

I can easily put something like a car axle on it (if I can lift it on there).

I have a hoist for such things. Best investment I made. My back can no longer take such things (well, it actually can, not that old yet, but forward thinking). And as a side benefit, way cool and fun to use. Almost at the point of looking for something, anything, to hoist up just to play with it.

fluffy2560 wrote:

Check it out: Soda Blasting Furniture.  How cool is that?  Real labour saving!

Very cool. And a great labor savings. I almost never do refurbishing because the strip down is such a PITA. I am more the type that takes a tree and is proud to make a 2x4 from it.

klsallee wrote:

I have a hoist for such things. Best investment I made. My back can no longer take such things (well, it actually can, not that old yet, but forward thinking). And as a side benefit, way cool and fun to use. Almost at the point of looking for something, anything, to hoist up just to play with it.

That's good. 

I also plan a hoist but to do that, I need to seriously modify my outbuilding. To be kosher and to avoid too many visible changes hereabouts rather than raise the roof (I can put my solar panels on it). 

I expect I need to lower the floor (it's on a hill), dig a pit (click here)and install a new floor (min. 3000 psi strength because of the alternative potential for installing a lift - not that expensive) and I also need columns with a steel beam to mount the hoist.   That's all getting a bit specialist and a bit OTT for maintaining old cars.   My back cannot take it  much either.     

klsallee wrote:

..Very cool. And a great labor savings. I almost never do refurbishing because the strip down is such a PITA. I am more the type that takes a tree and is proud to make a 2x4 from it.

Furniture is quite expensive so any recycling can be worthwhile.  The fashion for dark furniture seems to have been around the 1970s and a bit later.  Dark furniture is worthless but if you can strip off the paint/coating, sand it and varnish or distress it with a chalk effect then it can look a lot better in a modern setting.  Stick some nice new knobs on and it's done.

One thing I noticed here is that furniture produced in the communist time is really poorly made.  It's all veneer and rubbish underneath.  People still know the value of solid wood.

I have done oxy acetylene welding but it was 41 years ago and I was hopeless even after doing it all day 5 days a week for about 4 weeks! I was 16 and it was my first job, a sheet metal apprentice in the automotive industry. I didn't like the job and they didn't like me so I left after about 6 weeks.

In Scotland I had a friend in a soft drinks factory and he sorted me out with gas and regulators for the Mig but in Hungary I could not find anyone to refill my bottle. I did eventually find a firm that would supply me a full bottle by paying  a deposit plus the cost of the CO2. Again I'm hoping that will last me some years as I don't do much welding. I don't have an automatic hood but I think that should be the next item on my welding shopping list. For jobs needing both hands I have sometimes done tack welds with my eyes closed because I could not work the welding hood.

The soda blasting sounds an interesting idea. I have a compressor and a cheap sand blasting gun but it gets through a lot of air so it is a very slow process (blast for a few seconds then wait for the air tank to refill). I want to strip all the internal doors at the house in Croatia so the soda blast might be the way to do it. The hall walls and ceiling are done with pine cladding but at the moment the 6 doors are painted dark brown, so they would look better stripped and varnished.

fidobsa wrote:

I have done oxy acetylene welding but it was 41 years ago and I was hopeless even after doing it all day 5 days a week for about 4 weeks! I was 16 and it was my first job, a sheet metal apprentice in the automotive industry. I didn't like the job and they didn't like me so I left after about 6 weeks.

In Scotland I had a friend in a soft drinks factory and he sorted me out with gas and regulators for the Mig but in Hungary I could not find anyone to refill my bottle. I did eventually find a firm that would supply me a full bottle by paying  a deposit plus the cost of the CO2. Again I'm hoping that will last me some years as I don't do much welding. I don't have an automatic hood but I think that should be the next item on my welding shopping list. For jobs needing both hands I have sometimes done tack welds with my eyes closed because I could not work the welding hood.

I can imagine bottles being a problem.  I was using those throw away small bottles but since I got the stick welder, I just don't bother anymore with it. It's just too much hassle.  I will need to do something again if I get myself a Tig welder but I'll make sure I have the bottle source sorted beforehand. 

For most small heating up jobs I do I can get away with Mapp gas - not sure where to get those throwaway cylinders here - I'm on my last UK cylinder now. I had to use it up a bit today to remove a rusted suspension part.  Works a treat.  Hardly worth dragging the gas set out.

Everyone needs an auto darkening hood.  They don't cost that much. I got mine in Praktiker and it was an impulse buy when I got my inverter set.  It turns out to be possibly the greatest toolshed purchase I've made in the last 5 years.

fidobsa wrote:

The soda blasting sounds an interesting idea. I have a compressor and a cheap sand blasting gun but it gets through a lot of air so it is a very slow process (blast for a few seconds then wait for the air tank to refill). I want to strip all the internal doors at the house in Croatia so the soda blast might be the way to do it. The hall walls and ceiling are done with pine cladding but at the moment the 6 doors are painted dark brown, so they would look better stripped and varnished.

My own compressor is probably just about capable of doing some soda blasting.  I've also got some aluminum grit which I would try but to be honest I'm concerned health wise. I only have the cheapest hood with no air supply to keep the grit out. One doesn't want grit in the lungs.   My compressor couldn't supply me and supply the gun as well.  I'm somewhat more comfortable with Sodium Bicarbonate as it's essentially food grade, dissolves and therefore not going to be toxic (or less toxic).  I think I could get away with a face mask and filters and some decent goggles or full face mask of some kind. 

Soda is a one off though as it cannot be re-used and will wash away (and have disinfecting action). So I could do that in the open air.   

On the other hand, the aluminum isn't cheap and should be re-used.  The alu grit will be needed to rip through heavy rust. I was thinking of getting a very cheap tent from Tesco, putting the objects in there, cutting holes in the side and attaching using duct tape some sleeves cut off an old coat or shirt and gloves  and putting in a clear plastic window - bit like those dangerous chemical cabinets.  Then I can operate the gun without getting the grit everywhere. I'd still wear the face mask etc.  I've seen people using swimming pool filter sand - don't fancy that in the lungs much.

I did some checking around at 25 kg of Sodium Bicarb costs about 4-5K HUF.  For some reason they seem to use this stuff to make ice cream - at least the cheapest one I found in Budapest talks about ice cream - food grade.

I have no idea of the rate of use for soda blasting. I suspect a door (lead paint!) would use perhaps 3-5 kg?  Total guess.   I'm going to buy a couple of 25kg bags tomorrow if I can and see how I get on.  I've got a couple of test pieces I can try it on.

fidobsa wrote:

but in Hungary I could not find anyone to refill my bottle. I did eventually find a firm that would supply me a full bottle by paying  a deposit plus the cost of the CO2.

The gas I have bought in Hungary is also done with a bottle swap, at least in the bottle size I buy. I, myself at least, don't know anyone who does own bottle refills to private customers for CO2, Nitrogen or Argon. Which is actually okay with me, for my use, as mostly they deliver, drop off the new filled bottle, and I give them the empty bottle. Takes no time at all.

But here is one list of bottle sizes available in Hungary:

http://www.spring-gas.hu/arlista/

Some people were actually killed near us when they were refilling some NG bottles (illegally it seems) for resale and they exploded.

fluffy2560 wrote:

Mapp gas - not sure where to get those throwaway cylinders here -.

Might these do:

http://www.argep.hu/main.aspx?suche=map … =0&y=0

(Good grief, it is expensive).

klsallee wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

Mapp gas - not sure where to get those throwaway cylinders here -.

Might these do:

http://www.argep.hu/main.aspx?suche=map … =0&y=0

(Good grief, it is expensive).

Yes, saw them before. But that's blinking Rothenberger.  Total stitch up price wise hence to be avoided.  It's like no-one operates in this market except them.   Mapp gas is actually a trademark of Linde but others make Mapp substitutes which work just fine.

I can easily buy generic substititute cylinders, 750g for about 4K HUF in the UK.  These are the larger sizes and last for ages.  There's also a 400g size.  Unfortunately, they are only transportable by road. 

One thing to be careful of is the fitting.  There's an EU version but other regions/countries have different versions.

fluffy2560 wrote:

Yes, saw them before. But that's blinking Rothenberger.  Total stitch up price wise hence to be avoided.  It's like no-one operates in this market except them.

Effective retail monopolies like this are all too common in Hungary.

klsallee wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

Yes, saw them before. But that's blinking Rothenberger.  Total stitch up price wise hence to be avoided.  It's like no-one operates in this market except them.

Effective retail monopolies like this are all too common in Hungary.

Yes, absolutely. 

In say, Praktiker, they have a whole shelf for Rothenberger and nothing for anyone else.  So basically monopoly like you say.   I believe  in Tesco, manufacturers are actually paying for shelf space.

There are places I am sure where it's possible to get this stuff but hard to search around - just like not being able to find any flange nuts - again.   I've lost one now - probably in the mud - and had to cannibalise one off my spare axles. Lucky I had a spare axle for these purposes.

fluffy2560 wrote:

I believe  in Tesco, manufacturers are actually paying for shelf space.

In the USA, I think this is common practice. There are no "shelf space neutrality" laws on the books.