Raising a Vietnamese/ExPat Child

Don't over think it.

I think you have the situation well described.

But as you get closer to the children, you do need to consider that your relationship is becoming permanent, otherwise you are just like the father who abandoned them.

Sounds to me like the family is devoted to you. I think it's time to be devoted to them. Get married. Don't look back.

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I disagree.

Slowly, slowly, catchee monkey...

Be happy you are not a monkey         
.

Wxx3 wrote:

Don't over think it.

I think you have the situation well described.

But as you get closer to the children, you do need to consider that your relationship is becoming permanent, otherwise you are just like the father who abandoned them.

Sounds to me like the family is devoted to you. I think it's time to be devoted to them. Get married. Don't look back.

Bazza139 wrote:

.
I disagree.

Slowly, slowly, catchee monkey...

Be happy you are not a monkey         
.

I agree with both of you.

On the one hand, this is a serious commitment to three young human beings and their mother.

Not a time to be narcissistic or a neurotic. It's time for sober decisions.

On the other hand, jumping in without a reasonable time of getting to know each other (the mother and me) would be irresponsible.

I've taken the first step by moving across town to be closer to them. Although the younger boy wonders why I don't sleep in their home, he and his siblings are definitely encouraged to know I'm only 10 minutes away.

If all goes smoothly, I have no doubt we will marry.

It just isn't going to happen tomorrow.

Besides, from what I've read in other threads (about marriage in Vietnam) it's going to take me a while to get the documentation I'll need from The States.

Time to grow firm in our commitments to each other.

Please pass the bananas...

So...

It didn't work for us.

Almost from the moment I finally committed to a new apartment for us, plus promising tuition (and bus and tutoring) for the children, the relationship between the mother and me went south.

I prefer to say it's because of my shortcomings. I really did think I would do well as a husband AND a father to two small children and a teenager.

It turned out that, in spite of careful discussions in the months prior to moving in together, the mother and I are simply not a good match, and we want markedly different things in life.

I moved out, but I've promised to pay their rent through July. I'm also continuing to cover all education expenses through the end of the school year in May, plus providing for groceries through July.

The mother is unsuccessfully looking for local work. I think she may end up returning to work 'abroad' and return her children to their aunt.

I still spend time with the children, though gradually less and less. They are surprisingly (to me) understanding about the whole experience.

Now it's the start of high tourist season here in Đà Nẵng, and my hotel (I moved back to the An Thượng neighborhood) is raising my rent ₫2,000,000 VND to ₫9,000,000 VND on March 1st.

Not that I can't afford that, but it seems to be the right time for me to explore some other areas of interest.

So I'm looking at the general coastal area centered at Vũng Tàu.

I truly didn't come here to be in a relationship, unless you count an insatiable desire to cuddle and frolic with sand and saltwater.

In my head, I'm best suited for socializing with women over 40, probably widowed without children.

My heart can cloud my thinking...

OceanBeach92107 wrote:

So...

It didn't work for us.

Almost from the moment I finally committed to a new apartment for us, plus promising tuition (and bus and tutoring) for the children, the relationship between the mother and me went south.

I prefer to say it's because of my shortcomings. I really did think I would do well as a husband AND a father to two small children and a teenager.

It turned out that, in spite of careful discussions in the months prior to moving in together, the mother and I are simply not a good match, and we want markedly different things in life.

I moved out, but I've promised to pay their rent through July. I'm also continuing to cover all education expenses through the end of the school year in May, plus providing for groceries through July.

The mother is unsuccessfully looking for local work. I think she may end up returning to work 'abroad' and return her children to their aunt.

I still spend time with the children, though gradually less and less. They are surprisingly (to me) understanding about the whole experience.

Now it's the start of high tourist season here in Đà Nẵng, and my hotel (I moved back to the An Thượng neighborhood) is raising my rent ₫2,000,000 VND to ₫9,000,000 VND on March 1st.

Not that I can't afford that, but it seems to be the right time for me to explore some other areas of interest.

So I'm looking at the general coastal area centered at Vũng Tàu.

I truly didn't come here to be in a relationship, unless you count an insatiable desire to cuddle and frolic with sand and saltwater.

In my head, I'm best suited for socializing with women over 40, probably widowed without children.

My heart can cloud my thinking...

Good luck. Tomorrow is a new day

I am sad to hear your ending, but it is probably for the best.  Based on my experiences, it might be that she felt you would end up getting hurt in the end so she decided it was best for the 2 of you to part ways.

Sad to hear OB.  It surprised me a little bit that she ended it.  Stability for three kids usually would mean a lot.

Wadey wrote:

Good luck. Tomorrow is a new day

Thanks!

When I was like 10 years old my mother finally had a good boyfriend candidate who I wished to grant the title of daddy even though I also respected my own father (He was an air force officer, they divorced when I was very little, partly because of his duty and he was always stationed far away from us)

Uncle who was about to be my second dad was a single father with a little daughter, couple of years younger than me. I really looked forward to have a whole family again with him as the big man of the house, I felt a kind of relief and was very happy about the whole thing.

But my mother without any acceptable reasons chose not to continue and broke everyone's heart. All our lives had been different otherwise. Anyway destiny is a funny word without a real definition.

I never met him afterwards and I don't remember his name or how he looked like but I still remember him. I remembered him now when I read this story. Even though it was only a couple of months I knew him I remember him as a good person who I wished to grant the title of daddy.   

Why I reveal almost 40 years old couple of months of my lifetime. First of all it's sad to hear this, mostly because of the kids, feel like me and those boys have something in common. OB they will remember you as I remember "my uncle".

As much as destiny is such a strange thing to us, every morning is also a fresh, unique morning.

vndreamer wrote:

I am sad to hear your ending, but it is probably for the best.  Based on my experiences, it might be that she felt you would end up getting hurt in the end so she decided it was best for the 2 of you to part ways.

SteinNebraska wrote:

Sad to hear OB.  It surprised me a little bit that she ended it.  Stability for three kids usually would mean a lot.

Thanks guys.

Fact is, I'm the one who ultimately decided to pack and walk out the door.

However, we had been 'living apart' from each other in the apartment for weeks before that.

It was hard to tell how much was depression on her part (she admits that's "part of her problem") and how much was passive aggressive behavior.

I admit to having my own control issues in the household, and at the end, I wasn't a dream to live with, though I honestly don't think I was a nightmare (she never implied so).

More about the children in my reply to the next post...

finnbo wrote:

When I was like 10 years old my mother finally had a good boyfriend candidate who I wished to grant the title of daddy even though I also respected my own father (He was an air force officer, they divorced when I was very little, partly because of his duty and he was always stationed far away from us)

Uncle who was about to be my second dad was a single father with a little daughter, couple of years younger than me. I really looked forward to have a whole family again with him as the big man of the house, I felt a kind of relief and was very happy about the whole thing.

But my mother without any acceptable reasons chose not to continue and broke everyone's heart. All our lives had been different otherwise. Anyway destiny is a funny word without a real definition.

I never met him afterwards and I don't remember his name or how he looked like but I still remember him. I remembered him now when I read this story. Even though it was only a couple of months I knew him I remember him as a good person who I wished to grant the title of daddy.   

Why I reveal almost 40 years old couple of months of my lifetime. First of all it's sad to hear this, mostly because of the kids, feel like me and those boys have something in common. OB they will remember you as I remember "my uncle".

As much as destiny is such a strange thing to us, every morning is also a fresh, unique morning.

Thanks for such a wonderful reply.

You are giving voice to the eight year old boy, and you've painted a good picture of our relationship.

He and his older brother were often upset with their mother because they could see our relationship failing.

They would 'joke' about her, one calling her "mad mommy" and the other one saying "bad mommy".

I always supported her and corrected them, but it hurt to see them expressing the hurt they felt.

I am definitely no saint in all of this.

I'm just doing what I think and feel is my best to help them gently transition to whatever she will create for them next.

As an aside, she was way too quick to allow them to call me "Daddy"...on our second date; a day at the beach with the children and their aunt.

It was they young boy who did so first, as he gave me a huge hug for a greeting that day.

I'd say the oldest looks to me as a mentor. We will stay in touch directly.

The little girl who wanted to "take things slowly" had become (a bit too much of) a little princess, and she had started responding well to someone saying no to her yet still being available for her.

Of course, I'm not really available for her anymore, at least not directly.

Same for the little boy.

But even before I left I had asked them all to call me Uncle instead.

I admitted not being good at being Daddy (too controlling, it seems) but I wanted to affirm that they were very special to me.

I foresee keeping in touch with the family, even as I prepare to move away from this city.

I've had similar relationships in the states where the mother and I split, but I remained a friend of the family.

In one case, I celebrated with the woman at her ultimate marriage to a better man than me.

In the other, the adult children and I embraced and wept at their mother's funeral.

In fact, I was looking at my Facebook account the other day, feeling a bit amazed that my ex-wife, a number of ex-girlfriends, my son's mother and my former stepson all consider me a friend.

As I mentioned before, I really, really wanted this to work, but I'm also beginning to feel a bit of peace now with the realization that this is not the path for me.

I'd like to think that we all are better for having gone through this together, but that sense of self-satisfaction is sobered by the sadness of seeing their young faces in pain.

There is no escaping the fact that I helped cause that.

Once I dated a single mother who had a 3.5 year old son. When this little boy once accidentally called me dad I saw the reaction of my girlfriend, she didn't tell him anything at that time but she certainly had spoken to him about it, because the following time he happened to call me dad he suddenly looked at his mother and corrected himself by calling me uncle instead.

Later I realized that my girlfriend either didn't have much higher plans with me or she had very little confidence on me that I could live up to the character she and her son wanted me to be.

I guess this girlfriend of yours has had high confidence on you and she has been eager to go longer with you otherwise she wouldn't have let them call you dad so easily. 

I think the hardest part of a relationship is living together at same adress and surviving during the first few months. Everyday stuffs kills the beauty of romance little by little. What we unconsciously do then is start to find reasons why we don't match together and oddly enough we more often find good reasons.

I was married two times and had few short term relationships. With my second wife I broke up many times and moved out and together again so many times that non of us know exactly how many times it had been, finally she had enough otherwise that pattern never had come to an end.

This new thing living apart together relationship so called LAT is so popular in western countries maybe because of that typ of human behavior.

You're a great guy, dude. Looking out for those kids like that. I couldn't do it. Dating single moms seriously is a precarious situation even moreso in Saigon where she has a lot of other baggage to deal with.

And it's not a surprise that you didn't get along with her. I'm sure she had certain ways of doing things that she would not compromise. Like I've said before Westerners are the considerate party here and I've seen it over and over again where the sweet husband is holding onto his dear wife or partner and the lady just keeps walking tight-lipped, reserved, etc and has her own mission or agenda. 

There are definitely good ones here but it's such a tough ordeal to meet them-- locals or Asians only need apply. You can call me a troll or blame me for hating/bad-mouthing women or whatever but I'm the kind of guy that sincerely lives in the truth.

Nielsen Flute wrote:

You're a great guy, dude. Looking out for those kids like that. I couldn't do it. Dating single moms seriously is a precarious situation even moreso in Saigon where she has a lot of other baggage to deal with.

And it's not a surprise that you didn't get along with her. I'm sure she had certain ways of doing things that she would not compromise. Like I've said before Westerners are the considerate party here and I've seen it over and over again where the sweet husband is holding onto his dear wife or partner and the lady just keeps walking tight-lipped, reserved, etc and has her own mission or agenda. 

There are definitely good ones here but it's such a tough ordeal to meet them-- locals or Asians only need apply. You can call me a troll or blame me for hating/bad-mouthing women or whatever but I'm the kind of guy that sincerely lives in the truth.

I "liked" your post (even though I don't "like" everything you've written) because I do think you are being honest about YOUR agenda.

You do realize that YOU have an "agenda", don't you?

We all do.

Even if a person is an Eastern mystic simply wanting to 'be', that's an agenda.

And who am I to talk?

I have an agenda very similar to yours in some ways.

We both want a certain amount of "mothering" from the woman in our life; that sweet and unwavering dedication that usually only a mommy can promise.

Somewhere along the way we both got the notion in our heads that committed Vietnamese women in love are especially good at that.

However, we both would do well to remember that kind of woman does indeed require the passage through a "tough ordeal".

It's called TIME.

IF we are willing to take real, quality TIME in getting to know a Vietnamese woman (I'm talking many MONTHS, not many dates) then our odds greatly improve.

The immediate takeaway for me in my situation is that I didn't take enough time to get to know the children's mother.

Your original post in your first thread described a relationship where you HAD taken the time to get to know someone, most of the time keeping her at arms length.

Had you told her you don't want to be a Dad?

You haven't said that, exactly, but it's implied.

I'm guessing that deep down, you sensed that her agenda would never be your agenda.

Back to the subject of this thread: the children.

If I'm wrong about you, please give some constructive input as to how you would be a successful father of the Vietnamese child you may very well father one day through your 'aggressive dating' (your words from the other thread).

Peace~

Dating single Moms or a female over 25 for that matter is a precarious situation. It's sort of like driving a car without power steering or power brakes. But some can handle it. ^^

wildwildwest wrote:

Dating single Moms or a female over 25 for that matter is a precarious situation. It's sort of like driving a car without power steering or power brakes. But some can handle it. ^^

Such statements confirm to me that men are more backward than women.

No, it's logically true that women are more complicated when they have baggage like children, or are less marketable because of age. It's hard to find a woman above 25 who isn't acting super nice because she wants to connect with a man in a long-term relationship. Women 25 and under are generally more likely to be just themselves.

Divorce rates in those categories are also high.

Vietnamese women with foreigners are also complicated because of the typical economic disparity between them and the average Westerner. As well as the fact that money is such a big thing in Asia, particularly Vietnam, Vietnamese women on average are much more materialistic than your average male foreigner from a Western country (Westerners don't typically emigrate to a poor country like Vietnam to become rich anyways, so most of the people coming here are more the altruistic, giving types, not the cold-blooded, greedy types). And the divorce rate among Vietnamese is skyrocketing, having a foreign spouse doesn't make it any better.

I'm also speaking from experience because I've not had success with women in the aforementioned categories, but I started a long-term relationship outside that category ages ago and have been in it for several years now successfully.

wildwildwest wrote:

No, it's logically true that women are more complicated when they have baggage like children, or are less marketable because of age. It's hard to find a woman above 25 who isn't acting super nice because she wants to connect with a man in a long-term relationship. Women 25 and under are generally more likely to be just themselves.

Divorce rates in those categories are also high.

Vietnamese women with foreigners are also complicated because of the typical economic disparity between them and the average Westerner. As well as the fact that money is such a big thing in Asia, particularly Vietnam, Vietnamese women on average are much more materialistic than your average male foreigner from a Western country (Westerners don't typically emigrate to a poor country like Vietnam to become rich anyways). And the divorce rate among Vietnamese is skyrocketing, having a foreign spouse doesn't make it any better.

I'm also speaking from experience because I've not had success with women in the aforementioned categories, but I have started a  long-term relationship outside that category and have been in it for several year now successfully.

Thanks for your your replies (Andy too).

We already have too many threads that focus on Vietnamese women.

I'm hoping we can keep the focus here on the children, or on ourselves as (potential) parents.

I highlighted what I personally feel is the most relevant part of your post.

In my case, there was definitely affectionate and considerate behavior on her part that encouraged me to believe I would have all my selfish needs and desires met, including the desire to help the children.

Then her behavior changed.

I'm guessing mine did too.

I was probably less attractive being around her in the apartment all day than I was when we were seeing each other for a few hours at a time.

I'm now reevaluating my needs vs desires.

Personally, I need domestic help.

I desire romantic intimacy.

It would be easy in this country to pay for both.

But I also need a certain type of spiritual connection (not religious) and that's not for sale anywhere.

So again, taking more time is likely the best way to tell how much of the affection being shown is an 'act'.

All THAT to say, it would have been better to realize these things BEFORE involving the children.

Definitely no more meeting the children on the second date...

wildwildwest wrote:

It's hard to find a woman above 25 who isn't acting super nice because she wants to connect with a man in a long-term relationship.

Divorce rates in those categories are also high.

Westerners don't typically emigrate to a poor country like Vietnam to become rich anyways, so most of the people coming here are more the altruistic, giving types , not the cold-blooded, greedy types).

There are at least 3 stereotype/stereotypical perception in the above post that I can easily disprove.  However, in respect of OB's (who's also the OP) wish ("We already have too many threads that focus on Vietnamese women.  I'm hoping we can keep the focus here on the children, or on ourselves as (potential) parents"), I'm not going to engage myself in a potential lengthy exchange.  Still, I want to say this to wildwildwest:  Perception is not always reality, same goes for anecdotal experience.

I'm out of here (again), this time for a week of pain and suffering by dentist.

OB:  I wish you a good trip down the Southern Coast.

Yes, there are stereotypes and we all can provide examples of situations that are atypical of the stereotype.  However, stereotypes arise from peoples experiences and perceptions and that does not equate to a false narrative.  In defense of some of the comments, my experiences as well as others, confirm some of the stereotypes and what I would suggest is that based on a bell curve, the mean may provide more insight than those seeking confirmation of their experiences which occur at the edges of the bell curve.

That being said, I can say that based on my experiences, which include not only my travels, but native VN as well as others living and working in VN.  Because I was working and traveling in SEA and EA often, of course I had my relationships and like many others, there was reservations about trust, true love etc. 

What I expected may be different from others, but you have to decide what is right for you.  Based on my knowledge and experiences, you may find this cold, but I did not want to have a serious relationship with a VN woman under 21 or over 25, divorced or with children.  So yes, trying to find a single, never married, no children woman in that age range is like trying to find a needle in a haystack, but I was not going to settle, never have and never will.

So in response to OB's comment about taking it slow, yes, it is highly recommended.  For example, when I met my wife, yes, she was 23, single, never married and no children.  I am a traditionalist and treated her as I would any other date, respectful and always a gentleman.  Yes, we took it slow and it was well received by both.  She even tested me after a couple months and asked me if I wanted to be her boyfriend and without hesitation, I said NO.  I told her that it was not the right time, we needed more to time to get to know each other.  She later told me she was shocked that I said no, but was very pleased.   Why?  She told me that if I would have said yes, she would have ended it right then and there.  Guys who go fast just want one thing and she was not having it.

Each of us are different and have different interest.  I have a lot of respect for those who marry and adopt or care for others children.  Children are so innocent and wish you the best of luck

"Perception is not always reality, same goes for anecdotal experience."

We're going to have to agree to disagree here. In my very real case, my perception of what occurred is 20/20, and my ex and I both concur on it. I'm certainly not saying all Vietnamese women are the same, but the general tendency towards extreme materialism, and more often than not, accommodating related sociopathic traits usually exist. In the west, we call it greed. You may just call it human nature, ambition or Social Darwinism.

Not that it's relevant in this particular situation, I don't think it's just limited to any age, ethnicity or gender. This is just what I have found to be true. All people individually have flaws, and peoples or cultural groups are prone to certain degrees of tendencies, good and bad, and with exceptions on both sides of the equation. It would be too off-topic and lengthy to discuss all particular aspects fairly.

wildwildwest wrote:

"Perception is not always reality, same goes for anecdotal experience."

We're going to have to agree to disagree here. In my very real case, my perception of what occurred is 20/20, and my ex and I both concur on it. I'm certainly not saying all Vietnamese women are the same, but the general tendency towards extreme materialism, and more often than not, accommodating related sociopathic traits usually exist. In the west, we call it greed. You may just call it human nature, ambition or Social Darwinism.

Not that it's relevant in this particular situation, I don't think it's just limited to any age, ethnicity or gender. This is just what I have found to be true. All people individually have flaws, and peoples or cultural groups are prone to certain degrees of tendencies, good and bad, and with exceptions on both sides of the equation. It would be too off-topic and lengthy to discuss all particular aspects fairly.

Trying to keep this on topic:

If it's fair to observe all that as a "general tendency", then--in fairness--for the sake of the children, a western man who becomes involved with a Vietnamese woman and her children would do well to turn the lens on himself and consider to what degree his "general tendencies" are driven by what we refer to as ______ (fill in the blank)

@OceanBeach92107

Very inspiring story, indeed. Thank you for sharing.

    .I disagree.Slowly, slowly, catchee monkey...Be happy you are not a monkey          .
   

    -@Bazza139

Did I just see your ghost? 👻