Any homeschoolers here?

fluffy2560 wrote:

rajva wrote:

Yeah, my wife and I have been over this a few times, trying to figure out what to do. This isn't one of those things where one approach is "better" than another. You just have to find the right tradeoffs for your family.

The schooling is very "Prussian" here -- discipline oriented, sit-on-your-butt-and-listen. I totally get the argument for that -- developing some discipline is good, and some things actually do need to be learned that way. Still, I think that active and interest-driven learning is more effective for most material. ...e

If school was say 5 hours per per week, I'd be totally for it. 35 hours per week is just too "expensive".

.....

Anyway, I've written a letter to the Oktatási hivatal, emphasizing our foreign roots and that our kids are already fluent in two languages, making written exams in their third language difficult. I did not get into our "education philosophy", or try to play "behavioral problems" card, for reasons discussed earlier. Will post back when I get a response.

It used to be thought kids got muddled in multiple languages and that's been throughly debunked. Bilingual, trilingual and more kids have managed perfectly well for thousands of years.  I think it's pretty interesting stuff.  I've read reports that kids who have multi-language skills grow up more intelligent, better at maths and that they even live longer!  What's not to like?!

Our own teenager has taken to learning Spanish and is often found on the balcony at night admiring the stars and watching the ISS pass overhead and yet spends time doing her "art".  I guess the point is that  they might push back on the language argument.  You never know here. 

We know a couple who are professors of education here  in Hungary and also teaching at university level in Austria. From what we know of them, they shouldn't be let anywhere near kids. Their theories doesn't match anything like the practice.  They might even hate kids. Luckily they don't have any.   

Teachers are often loopy too and should be retired - one of them told our kid to be a hairdresser or nail technician.  Nothing wrong with that as a job of course but a) no interest; and b) straight-5* student with ambitions elsewhere.   WTF?  We had to spend time reversing the damage.

I can put time in with our kids - I'm a technologist primarily - but they aren't that interested in the subjects i know most about.  I'm working on trying to get some  common interest in say art critique or metal working sculpture but it's not working very well.  I find that sort of thing fascinating but they don't much care at all.  Everyone's different and we work to our strengths.

I reckon school should be 1/2 day 3 x a week.  35h is insanely long - full time job.  One of our kids cried when school was over this year.  Not because of missing friends or end of the time but because of the relief so much stress had been removed.   Of course it'll come back in September.

*Getting a 5 is like getting an A - as in Straight-A student.

Until a few decades ago it was thought that kids learning multiple languages was bad for their IQ, now the opposite is believed to be the case. I am pretty sure that the modern view is correct on this. Learning a new language via real-world exposure has all of the components of effective learning - it’s hard, it’s new, it’s active, etc.

There are several teachers in my wife’s side of the family. I actually tend to think that most teachers are ok and do the best they can. Many teachers are negative, complaining and nitpicking and putting too much emphasis on superficially “good” behavior, but this is probably a natural reaction to their environment. The mandatory curriculum also hamstrings teachers. There are a few really bad teachers out there but they’re a minority.

Totally agree about length of the school week. My ideal school week would be even shorter, I’d go for 1 day per week.

School provides several positive things. One of my brothers made a great point about this, he said that school gives the kids “relentless variety”. Good teachers, ok teachers, terrible teachers, good students, ok students, terrible students, etc - in a school you see it all, and there is value in being exposed to that, and in learning to deal with (bad) authority and (bad) peers, etc. I think the biggest risk with homeschooling is that you and your kids select the classes, activities, friends, etc, that are “good”, and don’t learn to deal with “the crap”. I’d be up for sending my kids to school for one day per week, to get that full exposure and experience. My problem is spending 35 hours per week on that.

klsallee wrote:

rajva wrote:

The schooling is very "Prussian" here -- discipline oriented, sit-on-your-butt-and-listen. I totally get the argument for that -- developing some discipline is good, and some things actually do need to be learned that way. Still, I think that active and interest-driven learning is more effective for most material.

Both my wife and I suffered under such rigid scholastic ideals. No wonder, we both became educators in our own way exploring other methods in our adult careers.

So, IMHO, no, discipline is not always good. Understanding the needs of each child is better.

I loved being at University. Finally.... No bells telling me when to go to class etc. I could learn at my own pace. I could explore. I did more and learned more during my years there than in all the years of primary and secondary education combined. I actually learned to love history, mathematics, philosophy, etc in just a few years of higher education without "rules".

If only there was a Montessori Method of Education school I could have gone to when I was between the age of 5 and 18.... Oh, the joy I would have had so much earlier.

Basically, I agree. I also went through the traditional school system and while I didn’t really think much of it at the time, it was in retrospect a much less efficient way to learn than what I do now to keep up with my profession.

Before we even had kids, I got into self-education. My job requires constant learning, and at some point I started to notice how often I forgot things, so I got into spaced repetition (ie. Anki) and really exploring the question of how to best learn new things. There have been a lot of recent breakthroughs in this area, and it turns out that many of our techniques and intuitions are wrong. For example, just about the worst review technique is passively re-reading your own notes, yet that is the technique which people turn to most frequently and self-assess as being the most effective. The single most important learning principle is to learn actively - don’t just read or listen to the material, but actually do something with the material. A traditional classroom has some active elements (such as tests) but on the whole it’s far too passive.

As far as discipline, in knowledge work you want your work to be 80% intrinsic interest and 20% discipline, not vice-versa. 80% discipline might be appropriate for a farm or a factory but in knowledge work it’s too inefficient. You have to be deeply engaged with the material and if you are just forcing yourself through it, it’s usually better to take a break and do something else for a while.

Incidentally, a very good overview book about this topic is "Ultralearning" by Scott Young:

https://www.amazon.com/Ultralearning-Sc … amp;sr=1-1

What I like about this book is that it's balanced. The main drawback of this type of literature is that authors tend to get carried away with their pet theories and make exaggerated claims, and you have to then sort through it and figure out what actually works. Ultralearning does a good job of giving balanced assessments.

rajva wrote:

...
Until a few decades ago it was thought that kids learning multiple languages was bad for their IQ, now the opposite is believed to be the case. I am pretty sure that the modern view is correct on this. Learning a new language via real-world exposure has all of the components of effective learning - it’s hard, it’s new, it’s active, etc.

There are several teachers in my wife’s side of the family. I actually tend to think that most teachers are ok and do the best they can. Many teachers are negative, complaining and nitpicking and putting too much emphasis on superficially “good” behavior, but this is probably a natural reaction to their environment. The mandatory curriculum also hamstrings teachers. There are a few really bad teachers out there but they’re a minority.

Totally agree about length of the school week. My ideal school week would be even shorter, I’d go for 1 day per week.

School provides several positive things. One of my brothers made a great point about this, he said that school gives the kids “relentless variety”. Good teachers, ok teachers, terrible teachers, good students, ok students, terrible students, etc - in a school you see it all, and there is value in being exposed to that, and in learning to deal with (bad) authority and (bad) peers, etc. I think the biggest risk with homeschooling is that you and your kids select the classes, activities, friends, etc, that are “good”, and don’t learn to deal with “the crap”. I’d be up for sending my kids to school for one day per week, to get that full exposure and experience. My problem is spending 35 hours per week on that.

My problem with teachers is that they can be anything from mentors to meglomaniacs.   What I really have a problem with and it's not just teachers, it's some people who have risen to their level of incompetence in positions of authority. 

A wrong word or statement  based on some unhelpful personal belief can be devastating.  I've been furious with some of the things I've heard here.  We've had to spend time trying to reverse the damage and build back up our children's confidence.   

What really surprises me is how ignorant some people teaching here are - we've heard everything from teachers including Jewish conspiracies, religious BS, anti-immigrant, racism, anti-LGBT, fascist thinking, weird things like pyramid power and energy transfer etc.   They really need to check that attitude.

One day a week is far too short.  Parents need a bit of a break and the kids need to see someone else.   Parents need time off too.  Hard to help if you're not in tip top shape.   Mrs Fluffy is a dynamo but when she was ill once a few years ago, I could hardly cope with work, home and kids. I could just about cope but it wasn't so easy.   

Since the COVID19 lockdown thing I'm pretty convinced I could stay at home pretty much all the time and only work 2-3 days a week and still get the same output.  Benefits all around.

As for the languages, bah humbug on complications. What nonsense! Bring it on.  Imagine the people living in multi-ethnic group countries - Belgium, India or even Switzerland.  They all have to have knowledge of their locally used languages on a daily basis.   Belgians have to do Flemish, French, German and English.  It's just normal but unlike here, the environment is set up for it. Even university here demands two languages other than Hungarian.  Our teenager obviously knows English and has chosen Spanish on her own as the other one.

rajva wrote:

school gives the kids “relentless variety”

The "relentless variety" at my high school included constant ridicule, insults, hazing, extortion, robbery and muggings (including at knife point). Schools should be about education, but not a "street" education.  I was even once threatened by a staff member. It was not just the students.

Oh... and one of my teachers was murdered because he tried to help a student in with "some bad people" (the student he was trying to help was also murdered). We all wondered in his class why he did not show up for class that day, and no one at the school administration seemed to be bothered about the fact he was absent all day. And we students all just shuffled out when the bell rang....

And my school was considered one of the "better schools". My parents even lobbied I go to that one rather than the more "local one" know for its drugs, problems, and violence....

fluffy2560 wrote:

What really surprises me is how ignorant some people teaching here are

The teaching profession is not paid enough to attract the brightest people and also retain them.

That is, there are many very good, young teachers. Full of energy. Full of knowledge. Full of compassion.

But most get worn out by the system and leave the profession. It is just not worth it. So the system sadly often is left with those that really have no skills to do much else and no where else to go. Race to the bottom.

It is no coincidence that the teacher strike was gaining moment in Hungary, demanding better pay and working conditions, when OV made "immigration" an issue. It was a deflection away from clear state failure regarding education. And it worked. The teacher strikes went off the radar. Fear always wins against progressive ideas. Well played by OV (politically), but long term.... damage to the Hungarian educational system and thus to society long term. The effects will be seen. It will take time, but neglecting a well rounded, critical thinking education for students will have an eventual detrimental effect for the nation.

klsallee wrote:

..... And it worked. The teacher strikes went off the radar. Fear always wins against progressive ideas. Well played by OV (politically), but long term.... damage to the Hungarian educational system and thus to society long term. The effects will be seen. It will take time, but neglecting a well rounded, critical thinking education for students will have an eventual detrimental effect for the nation.

OV doesn't care about anything except keeping in power for the purposes of self-enrichment of his friends and eventually himself.  That's the theme of many politicians in many countries nowadays.  Shame.

fluffy2560 wrote:

rajva wrote:

...
Until a few decades ago it was thought that kids learning multiple languages was bad for their IQ, now the opposite is believed to be the case. I am pretty sure that the modern view is correct on this. Learning a new language via real-world exposure has all of the components of effective learning - it’s hard, it’s new, it’s active, etc.

There are several teachers in my wife’s side of the family. I actually tend to think that most teachers are ok and do the best they can. Many teachers are negative, complaining and nitpicking and putting too much emphasis on superficially “good” behavior, but this is probably a natural reaction to their environment. The mandatory curriculum also hamstrings teachers. There are a few really bad teachers out there but they’re a minority.

Totally agree about length of the school week. My ideal school week would be even shorter, I’d go for 1 day per week.

School provides several positive things. One of my brothers made a great point about this, he said that school gives the kids “relentless variety”. Good teachers, ok teachers, terrible teachers, good students, ok students, terrible students, etc - in a school you see it all, and there is value in being exposed to that, and in learning to deal with (bad) authority and (bad) peers, etc. I think the biggest risk with homeschooling is that you and your kids select the classes, activities, friends, etc, that are “good”, and don’t learn to deal with “the crap”. I’d be up for sending my kids to school for one day per week, to get that full exposure and experience. My problem is spending 35 hours per week on that.

My problem with teachers is that they can be anything from mentors to meglomaniacs.   What I really have a problem with and it's not just teachers, it's some people who have risen to their level of incompetence in positions of authority. 

A wrong word or statement  based on some unhelpful personal belief can be devastating.  I've been furious with some of the things I've heard here.  We've had to spend time trying to reverse the damage and build back up our children's confidence.   

What really surprises me is how ignorant some people teaching here are - we've heard everything from teachers including Jewish conspiracies, religious BS, anti-immigrant, racism, anti-LGBT, fascist thinking, weird things like pyramid power and energy transfer etc.   They really need to check that attitude.

One day a week is far too short.  Parents need a bit of a break and the kids need to see someone else.   Parents need time off too.  Hard to help if you're not in tip top shape.   Mrs Fluffy is a dynamo but when she was ill once a few years ago, I could hardly cope with work, home and kids. I could just about cope but it wasn't so easy.   

Since the COVID19 lockdown thing I'm pretty convinced I could stay at home pretty much all the time and only work 2-3 days a week and still get the same output.  Benefits all around.

As for the languages, bah humbug on complications. What nonsense! Bring it on.  Imagine the people living in multi-ethnic group countries - Belgium, India or even Switzerland.  They all have to have knowledge of their locally used languages on a daily basis.   Belgians have to do Flemish, French, German and English.  It's just normal but unlike here, the environment is set up for it. Even university here demands two languages other than Hungarian.  Our teenager obviously knows English and has chosen Spanish on her own as the other one.

I think teachers are comparable to the rest of the population. There is a bell curve — you get a few really good teachers, many kind-of-ok teachers, and a handful of truly awful teachers.

Agree about languages. The old thinking was apparently that when kids get thrown into a foreign language environment, it creates a mess in their minds. I kind of get where that’s coming from. When our kids first got dropped into an English-speaking environment, they spoke English worse than a native speaker, and in the meantime their first language (Polish) started to fade. It was very noticeable for at least a year, although now they’re truly fluent in both languages. The modern view is that the process of learning that second language makes you smarter overall, which totally make sense to me.

klsallee wrote:

rajva wrote:

school gives the kids “relentless variety”

The "relentless variety" at my high school included constant ridicule, insults, hazing, extortion, robbery and muggings (including at knife point). Schools should be about education, but not a "street" education.  I was even once threatened by a staff member. It was not just the students.

Oh... and one of my teachers was murdered because he tried to help a student in with "some bad people" (the student he was trying to help was also murdered). We all wondered in his class why he did not show up for class that day, and no one at the school administration seemed to be bothered about the fact he was absent all day. And we students all just shuffled out when the bell rang....

And my school was considered one of the "better schools". My parents even lobbied I go to that one rather than the more "local one" know for its drugs, problems, and violence....

Whoa. Yeah, nobody should spend any time in a situation like that.

I went to school in the US and never saw anything close to that. My junior high math teacher once threw the chalk at me after I made one too many wisecracks but I deserved it. He was actually one of my best teachers.

In Malta one of the teachers was screaming at the kids. It didn’t seem to bother our son, although a couple of kids were apparently too scared to ask to go to the toilet, etc. I didn’t think it was a problem. This teacher was also actually decent at teaching.

The low teacher pay doesn’t actually seem to destroy teacher quality that much. My wife’s sister was one of the top students at the best Polish university, now she teaches. My wife's mom was also a top university student, still teaching after 30+ years. Of course, you can’t fill all teacher openings with top-flight candidates. Even high-paying tech companies can’t manage that.

It’s also hard to fire bad teachers, just like in other professions. A few years ago I asked our principal why teacher X was still there. His response was that he’s trying to run the school like a family, it’s not Google, etc. Eventually the teacher was let go. Sometimes it just takes time, you’re dealing with human beings.

rajva wrote:

klsallee wrote:

rajva wrote:

school gives the kids “relentless variety”

The "relentless variety" at my high school included constant ridicule, insults, hazing, extortion, robbery and muggings (including at knife point). Schools should be about education, but not a "street" education.  I was even once threatened by a staff member. It was not just the students.

Oh... and one of my teachers was murdered because he tried to help a student in with "some bad people" (the student he was trying to help was also murdered). We all wondered in his class why he did not show up for class that day, and no one at the school administration seemed to be bothered about the fact he was absent all day. And we students all just shuffled out when the bell rang....

And my school was considered one of the "better schools". My parents even lobbied I go to that one rather than the more "local one" know for its drugs, problems, and violence....

Whoa. Yeah, nobody should spend any time in a situation like that.

I went to school in the US and never saw anything close to that. My junior high math teacher once threw the chalk at me after I made one too many wisecracks but I deserved it. He was actually one of my best teachers.

In Malta one of the teachers was screaming at the kids. It didn’t seem to bother our son, although a couple of kids were apparently too scared to ask to go to the toilet, etc. I didn’t think it was a problem. This teacher was also actually decent at teaching.

The low teacher pay doesn’t actually seem to destroy teacher quality that much. My wife’s sister was one of the top students at the best Polish university, now she teaches. My wife's mom was also a top university student, still teaching after 30+ years. Of course, you can’t fill all teacher openings with top-flight candidates. Even high-paying tech companies can’t manage that.

It’s also hard to fire bad teachers, just like in other professions. A few years ago I asked our principal why teacher X was still there. His response was that he’s trying to run the school like a family, it’s not Google, etc. Eventually the teacher was let go. Sometimes it just takes time, you’re dealing with human beings.

Seems like similar experiences could be had on this side of the pond but not nowadays. I was beginning to think these experiences are extracts from  Tom Brown's School Days or indeed The Imitation Game

There's a strange difference between how High School is portrayed in US movies and how it is over this way - I have no other reference - where the teachers and education are incidental to formula scenarios like inter-gang rivalry, school police (WTF?), guns, drugs, kids with cars (Europe, nah, never like that) and it all usually ends up with a "graduation" dance where scores are settled.  Exception might be Dead Poets Society or Goodbye Mr Chips.

BTW, Mrs Fluffy tells me they are introducing "school police" here.  They won't be armed but they will have handcuffs.  WTF is that about?    Looks like a solution looking for a problem.  Or is it another attempt at control?  Makes me really nervous to think some wannabe cop is going to get my kid in a chokehold because they wouldn't eat their broccoli.

rajva wrote:

The low teacher pay doesn’t actually seem to destroy teacher quality that much. My wife’s sister was one of the top students at the best Polish university, now she teaches. My wife's mom was also a top university student, still teaching after 30+ years. Of course, you can’t fill all teacher openings with top-flight candidates. Even high-paying tech companies can’t manage that.

First, that is anecdotal evidence. Much research says otherwise. Especially in urban areas. Just as one example:

https://cepa.stanford.edu/content/salar … ecruitment

Second, being a great student does not de facto mean one is a great teacher. No offense to your relatives intended of course. Just saying that such personal statements are not fact or evidence of their teaching quality.

Have they won any independent awards? That is a start. My father was a HS math teacher. He actually won an award from Cal Tech for his teaching quality. Yet he retired early, because even he got tired of all the nonsense and politics at his school. Moved to teaching part time as a local community college, which he enjoyed more. Just saying....

Side note regarding knowledge, expertise, and teaching ability. This I found to be a very accurate report:

Those Who Can Do, Can’t Teach

Advice for college students: The best experts sometimes make the worst educators.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/25/opin … dvice.html