Changing citizenship with a Permanent Residency

07/25/21
New Brazil,

So, you plan to become a third-country national, neither a Brazilian nor an American citizen?

Your permanent residency in Brazil is based on your relationship with your Brazilian family member and your identity, so as long as those two things don't change, Brazil should have no objections.

I'd suggest checking with the Federal Police after you get your new citizenship and passport but before you renounce your US Citizenship to confirm that you won't have a problem.  I don't imagine that you will, but they may want to reissue your CRNM.  After that, you can renounce and be sure that you won't get caught in a bureaucratic bind.

Can’t you have dual citizenship between USA and Brazil?  Also what taxes would you pay in the USA if your not working there or own some sort of property or business, I think in my own opinion I’d like too have a dual citizenship between both Brazil and USA being able too travel between the two for me is a must and mabe working in the USA too make money faster and bring it here is my plan

Thank your both for your help and response. In reference to just keeping both citizenships. All US citizens no matter were you live or make money they make you pay taxes to the USA. Even though you receive no benefits since your in another country. This is the same for Brazil citizens. So the only way to escape this from the Tax man in the US is to drop your citizenship. Find a country that allows you to live free of Tax if you live in another country or pay a small amount. I don’t have problem paying taxes if it goes to help the people.

07/25/21

New Brazil

As a permanent resident of Brazil you're liable for Brazilian income taxes now, and you'll still be liable for them after you renounce your US Citizenship,
but without any offset for taxes paid in the US.  If you haven't already reviewed your plans with your Brazilian tax advisor and understood all the ramifications, now is as good a time as any to do it.

Yes Thanks I understand the taxes here in Brazil are less at least  10% to 12% less than the USA. So right now my wife supports me and she pay taxes to Brazil. When I do get any money I will be getting all the advice to make this as painless as possible.

07/25/21

NewBrazil,

American Citizens Abroad Inc. (www.americansabroad.org) is a nonprofit support organization for American expats that, among other things, lobbies Congress to replace Citizenship Based Taxation (CBT) with Residence Based Taxation (RBT).  You may find their activities and updates interesting.

NewBrazil,
May I ask what taxes you are referring to?

Question, wh in order to where If and when I reach retirement, if you renounce your United States citizenship,
are you still eligible for your retirement money from the from the government your social security income?

hocytek3 wrote:

Question, wh in order to where If and when I reach retirement, if you renounce your United States citizenship,
are you still eligible for your retirement money from the from the government your social security income?

That is complicated. Yes, you can, but there are many requirements you have to meet. What country you are in and what citizen you have become.
Also, survivor benefits could be affected.
I would look at the SS website, unless someone has done this, not many are qualified to answer.

I apologize for the misspelled words. I am a US citizen. When I get my CRDM card, to live in Brazil with my family and , hopefully, find some employment in Brazil, Will I be able to receive my SSI benefits?

Warmest regards,
hocytek

hocytek3 wrote:

I apologize for the misspelled words. I am a US citizen. When I get my CRDM card, to live in Brazil with my family and , hopefully, find some employment in Brazil, Will I be able to receive my SSI benefits?

Warmest regards,
hocytek

You will have a long way to go to be a Citizen of Brazil after gaining your CRNM. There is a waiting period and a Portuguese test is given twice a year.
I would not renounce being a US Citizen until you have done this.
SSI is diffrent than Social Security.
SSI Qualifications:
To qualify for this benefit program, you must meet all of the following requirements:

Be at least age 65 OR be blind or disabled.
Have limited income and resources.
Be a citizen or a national of the U.S. or an alien who meets certain applicable requirements.
Reside in one of the 50 States, District of Columbia, or the Northern Mariana Islands, except for a child of military parent(s) assigned to permanent duty anywhere outside the United States or certain students temporarily abroad.

I am not a lawyer, but you may want to get SSI checks in your US Bank and Wire them to your Brazil Bank.
If you formally renounce your US citizenship you may lose SSI.
Again just an opinion only.

08/06/21

hocytek3 wrote:

I apologize for the misspelled words. I am a US citizen. When I get my CRDM card, to live in Brazil with my family and , hopefully, find some employment in Brazil, Will I be able to receive my SSI benefits?

Warmest regards,
hocytek

hocytek,

You absolutely will be able to receive your SS retirement benefits as a US Citizen resident in Brazil; many people here do.  (SSI -- Supplemental Security Income -- operates by different rules that bar payments to overseas residents.)  You can find authoritative information from SSA here:

https://blog.ssa.gov/social-security-be … ed-states/

Once you move here, your file will be administered by the Foreign Benefits Unit at the US Embassy in Lisbon, Portugal, which is responsible for servicing Social Security recipients in Portuguese-speaking countries.  They are very responsive and easy to deal with.

If you renounce your US Citizenship, you will still receive your benefits, but may become subject to the Nonresident Alien Tax Withholding requirement.  You can find more information about that here:

https://www.ssa.gov/international/AlienTax.html

08/06/21

JRomero1988 wrote:

Can’t you have dual citizenship between USA and Brazil?  Also what taxes would you pay in the USA if your not working there or own some sort of property or business, I think in my own opinion I’d like too have a dual citizenship between both Brazil and USA being able too travel between the two for me is a must and mabe working in the USA too make money faster and bring it here is my plan

Yes, you can have dual citizenship, US and Brazil.  I do, with Brazilian citizenship by naturalization.  My US mailing address is in a state that doesn't have an income tax, and as for the federal income tax, I don't make enough for that to be a worry, even with Brazilian income tax on top of it. 

08/13/21

A book suggested in another thread by @Cakinator contains some excellent information on the process and pitfalls of  renouncing US Citizenship.  It's US Taxes for Americans Abroad by Vincenzo Villamena CPA and John Hamilton CPA. 

It's available for purchase and Kindle download from Amazon US, and I recommend it for the reading list of anyone considering renunciation.

Must be nice. Having a state that doesn't require income taxes. Lol Canada has mastered the art of skinning me for any penny possible. Even when pennies are no longer produced 😂

Mikeflanagan wrote:

Must be nice. Having a state that doesn't require income taxes. Lol Canada has mastered the art of skinning me for any penny possible. Even when pennies are no longer produced 😂

It is!     The Canadian tax system does seem pretty efficient,  and not in a good way.

On the other hand, Brazil has a tax treaty with Canada:  there may be some goodies hidden in there of use to you. 🤞

1st, check if the USA has a bilateral tax agreement with Brazil and read what it says about your situation. If you are a permanent resident, usually getting the Brazilian citizenship, will only give you ne mor right... the right to vote.

I am  Canadian and got my Brazilian Citizenship by naturalization (married to a Brazilian and having lived here 15  years). As for taxes I requested to  pay non resident tax on my pension income. That tax rate is less than the Canadian tax rate. But ass my income is from Canada I pay taxes in Canada at that non resident rate and no income tax in Brazil.

O8/16/21

Under US law, there's a pretty ample exclusion for income earned abroad.   It has to meet the US definition of "earned income", so investment income won't ordinarily qualify. 

If you have a Brazilian spouse who has an independent income and no intention of ever living in the US, think long and hard before obtaining a US Taxpayer ID for him/her:  that income would be exposed to US  taxation.   Filing your US taxes as "Married, Filing Separately" will shield that income, and not affect your ability to file your Brazilian taxes as "Married, Filing Jointly".

To answer one question the USA doesn’t have a Tax share with Brazil. So you can be double taxed. The only example I found if you do make up to 100,000 it’s a little more this is a Tax exemption. That money has to be made outside the USA. So if you collect SSI or pension that taxed without any exemptions. It look like regular income from the USA. The only way to escape taxes legally is to give up your citizenship become a citizen of at tax free country. USA may  still  tax a pension or SSI.Even if your not a citizen of the USA.  That still not clear from what  I found.

08/16/21
New Brazil

It is correct that there is no tax treaty between the US and Brazil.  It is also correct that non-citizens, including former citizens, have to file annual tax returns for all US-source income; there are withholdings on at least some types of income, and I'm not sure how much is eventually refunded.   Any non-citizen who spends more time in the US than is permitted by the Substantial Presence Test becomes a tax resident again, regardless, so counting days becomes important.   This information, and the information that follows, is based on Chapter 15, "Renouncing Citizenship", of the book I mentioned in Post #15 above, which I strongly recommend.

The Estate Tax exemption for non-US citizens is only $60,000, so prior to renunciation it is important to structure one's assets properly, and this cannot be done in the same year as the renunciation, or the assets being repositioned may be taxed. 

Renunciation of US Citizenship is irrevocable.

Requirements for renunciation:

1. Already have your second citizenship -- the consul may refuse to allow you to renounce if you will become a stateless person.
 
2. Be up to date on your US taxes

3.  Prepare the expatriation paperwork.  You will have to provide a valid reason, and "reducing taxes" is not considered a valid reason.

4. Book your appointment at the Consulate

5. Attend your renunciation appointment

6. File your final US tax return -- final, at least, as a citizen.

7. File Form 8854

Form 8854 declares whether you are a "covered expatriate" or not, and if so, calculates your exit tax, over and above your final income tax.  Until you file your Form 8854, you are still liable for US taxes, even though no longer a citizen.

A "covered expatriate" meets one or more of the following categories:

1. Average US tax liability over the past five years greater than $168K

2. Net worth equal to or greater than $2 million at time of renunciation.

3. Not tax compliant during any of the last five years.

"Covered expatriates" may be subject to an exit tax in order to complete the renunciation.

This is only a summary of a summary.  You definitely should review the book, and any other authoritative research material you can find before making this momentous decision.  Good luck!