EU (Romania) and Canadian citizen with Canadian family

You have already put this question here, but you probably haven't read my answer because you haven't given any kind of feedback.....

https://www.expat.com/forum/viewtopic.p … 18#5133192

And now in this post you have answered your question again:

Family members of third country nationals, who reside abroad and intend to enter Portuguese Territory, must hold a valid passport and, some times, under the European Union Legislation are required to hold a visa. Consequently, before their trip they must go to a Portuguese consular post / consular mission with a view to be informed of the necessary requirements to enter national territory.

So, you must always contact the Portuguese consulate in Canada and ask your questions...

You are right, JohnnyPT, I have not read your previous answer, for some reason I have not received a notice that there was a reply to my question.
Thank you a lot for your reply.
I read it today, but it doesn't make things any clearer. You say "as you have non-EU family members, you should always have to make that request for them before you travel to Portugal, even if you are an EU citizen"
But the request is to be made at SEF, right? How can I make a request at SEF from Canada, and without any Registration Certificate of my own?
Other sources I've been reading (for example https://eportugal.gov.pt/en/cidadaos-eu … m-portugal) say that "Family members of EU citizens who do not have European nationality must apply for a residence card to be able to live in Portugal for more than three months. The residence card must be applied for within the 30 days following their first three months in national territory, at the offices of the SEF, after making an appointment."
So my understanding here is that they have to apply from Portugal at the SEF offices.
Am I missing something here?...
Thank you a lot for your reply.

"But the request is to be made at SEF, right? How can I make a request at SEF from Canada, and without any Registration Certificate of my own?"

It is not like that. You should always contact a portuguese consulate in Canada regarding the situation of your family members. It is very likely that they will need a visa, even if you have double nationality / EU citizenship. The appointments with SEF in Portugal are only made AFTER they apply for a visa in a portuguese consulate in Canada and never before.

The extending stay/visa renewal is that it will be done at the SEF in Portugal.

https://portaldascomunidades.mne.gov.pt … ica/canada

Canada is one of the countries whose citizens are exempt from visa to enter Portugal, but ONLY when they are travelling as tourists and for a maximum period of 90 days.

JohnnyPT wrote:

"But the request is to be made at SEF, right? How can I make a request at SEF from Canada, and without any Registration Certificate of my own?"

It is not like that. You should always contact a portuguese consulate in Canada regarding the situation of your family members. It is very likely that they will need a visa, even if you have double nationality / EU citizenship. The appointments with SEF in Portugal are only made AFTER they apply for a visa in a portuguese consulate in Canada and never before.

The extending stay/visa renewal is that it will be done at the SEF in Portugal.

https://portaldascomunidades.mne.gov.pt … ica/canada

Canada is one of the countries whose citizens are exempt from visa to enter Portugal, but ONLY when they are travelling as tourists and for a maximum period of 90 days.

Still, let's imagine the following scenario: we all come all together as tourists (without visas). Both me and my wife already have NIFs. We open a joint bank account, rent an apartment, I apply for my Residency Certificate, then I apply online for appointment at SEF for my wife and children.

Their website says:
If you are a third country citizen and intend to accompany a family member who is an EU/EEA/Switzerland citizen, during his / her stay in Portugal for a period exceeding three months, please apply for your RESIDENCE CARD FOR A THIRD COUNTRY NATIONAL WHO IS A FAMILY MEMBER OF AN EU/EEA/SWITZERLAND CITIZEN
And also:
Family members of third country nationals, who reside abroad and intend to enter Portuguese Territory, must hold a valid passport and, some times, under the European Union Legislation are required to hold a visa. Consequently, before their trip they must go to a Portuguese consular post / consular mission with a view to be informed of the necessary requirements to enter national territory.
I underlined the word enter because the text essentially says that a visa may be required to enter Portugal, not to remain. Plus, it says that sometimes a visa may be needed to enter Portugal, and we all know that there are certain countries where a visa is required in order to enter Portugal, Canada, as you mentioned, not being one of them.
Documents required:
2. An identification document of the person you [i]accompany or that you are regrouping with (Register Certificate, Residence Card or Identity card) [Certificado de Registo, Cartão de Residência ou Bilhete de Identidade];
3. Two passport-type photographs on a white back-ground;
4. Photocopies of all used pages of your valid and current passport;
5. Evidence of dependent family members (if applicable);[/i]

There's no mention there of a D7 visa required in order to receive the residence card. If that was the case, what difference does it make that they are my family members? They could just apply in their own right for D7 visas. In that case, however, why is everywhere I read mentioned that family members of EU citizens or residents have equal rights to reside in Portugal?

So, assuming we go by the above scenario and make an appointment at SEF, what are they going to do, as long as I am legally living there and they are my family? Send them back to Canada?...

I am not convinced at all that I am not right. I have not been able to find any document so far stating clearly that non-EU family members of EU citizens or residents need a D7 visa in order to remain more than 3 months in Portugal.

I am not sure if you have any suggestions on where I could find such information. Or maybe you could advise on some kind of legal resource experienced in Portuguese immigration laws who could advise on this.
Thank you in any case for the effort you put into replying to my (long) messages.

Hi Cristian,

The residence certificate for an EU citizen is normally only required if you stay in Portugal for more than 3 months, and is obtained at the local council where you live.

I understand your arguments. If you already have a NIF and find a house for purchase/rent, you can always ask for that residence certificate for yourself, and then apply to the SEF for a residence permit for your family members.

But I see a problem of timing here, I don't know if you will be able to do all that in 3 months, especially with the SEF's delays, due to the pandemic and other causes...

Check this out with your Portuguese consulate. What it may cost you is the time to write an email or make a phone call ....

JohnnyPT wrote:

Hi Cristian,

The residence certificate for an EU citizen is normally only required if you stay in Portugal for more than 3 months, and is obtained at the local council where you live.

I understand your arguments. If you already have a NIF and find a house for purchase/rent, you can always ask for that residence certificate for yourself, and then apply to the SEF for a residence permit for your family members.

But I see a problem of timing here, I don't know if you will be able to do all that in 3 months, especially with the SEF's delays, due to the pandemic and other causes...

Check this out with your Portuguese consulate. What it may cost you is the time to write an email or make a phone call ....

Hi JohnnyPT,
It turns out that I was right all along!
I just got a call from the Portuguese Consulate in Vancouver advising me that the simplest way for me and my family to move to Portugal was ... exactly the scenario I described to you in my previous message!
They had a good laugh when I told them that I already KNEW that this is the easiest way despite everybody telling me otherwise.

So just in case anybody else asks this type a question: non-EU relatives (spouse, kids, parents) of EU citizens do NOT need an immigration (D7) visa in order to move and live in Portugal, they just have to have the EU citizen register first at the Junta de Freguesia, then make appointment for Residence Card at SEF, regardless of how long that takes (important thing is to have the proof of application).

So that's that.
Thanks again for your help.

Great, I'm glad you have clarified your doubts with the consulate.
Thanks for sharing that, it might be useful for people in a similar situation.

All the best

Hi Cristian & JohnnyPT,

Thank you for all the information provided.

I am in a similar position at the moment and need to clarify the process with yourself.

Situation:
My husband is an EU Citizen and has his residence certificate for Portugal.  I am British and been trying to get an appointment from SEF  for 5 months now for REGISTRATION CERTIFICATE FOR CITIZENS OF THE EU/EEA/SWITZERLAND WHO ARE FAMILY MEMBERS OF CITIZENS OF UE/EEA/SWITZERLAND but always unable to get through to SEF or told there are no appointments.

Is the process as follows:
1.  EU Citizen Apply for Resident Certificate at Camara Municipal
2.  Once certificate is received the Non EU Citizen books an appointment at SEF via the contact centre numbers:  +351 217 115 000 (Rede fixa) ou +351 965 903 700 (Rede Móvel).

or is there a different way of obtaining the residency certificate or card?

The problem I have now is without this residency certificate I am unable to get a Utente number  to use my medical aid, unable to apply for a business in Portugal and am at a loss on how to proceed.

Hope to hear from you soon.

Thank you in advance.
SG

@MrsSG Hi MrsSG, I´m sorry that you didn´t get an answer to your question here, I´m in the very same situation you commented on, and I wonder if you finally figured it out and could share your findings with us. Best regards.

@Diana Emilia  That is the exact process. I, as a Romanian/Canadian citizen, have applied to the Camara Municipal for the Certificado de Registo with my Romanian passport (Canadian passport is pretty much useless in Portugal; mine got a bit soaked in a torrential rain and I won't even bother to replace it). They were reluctant to give it to me in the beginning, saying that I had only been in Portugal for 2 months and not the 3 indicated by the law as necessary for them to issue the certificate. They would not relent even though I pointed to them that the 3 months are the period of time where they are not allowed to ask for such a certificate, and that there was nothing in the law to prevent them to issue one. In the end I made an official complaint at the Camara, and after a few days they said I was right and they misinterpreted the law, and they gave me the certificate with apologies.

Once I had this I started calling every day both numbers at SEF in order to get an appointment for for my wife and daughters (Canadian citizens). From what I remember it took about 6 weeks, calling from 30 to 100 times a day (I basically installed a redialer on my phone for conveniency) and in the end, one day, when I least expected it, we got an appointment. Apparently they open appointments every month or so for the 2-3 months ahead (we got through at the end of February and the appointment was for 21 April). So it definitely didn't take 5 months, but we did call tens of times every day at various times. I remember on the day we got the appointments I called 300 times... the phone was busy all the time or connecting but then disconnecting automatically.

In April we went to SEF Espinho (we live in Porto) and after about 5 weeks my daughters got their cards in the mail, took a couple of weeks longer for the wife because of some other issues particular to us.

So, what can I say? Persistence and patience will eventually get you through.

By early July we were all set, all had SNS Numeros de utente as well.

Good luck!

Ho Christina,

great story! Lovely to read what you have been able to do…

We just went down the D7 route with my husband (Canadian) in Vancouver.

I am EU/Canadian citizen. If we knew that this was even an option, we would have applied for Junta certificate getting here and gone directly for SEF appointment through through my EU citizenship. So, it sounds we could have saved a lot of troubles by just being persistent…

Now my husband has his SEF appointment on September 4th and then we have to apply for family reunification for me. And SEF is backlogged…

Anyway, I suppose at this point I can just start calling the SEF office for an appointment for family reunification.

Just curious, did you ship any personal belongings from Vancouver? If so, how did you do it without baggage certificate?

Thanks and warm regards,

Milena

@milenadaley,

If you have citizenship from one of EU countries, you don't need a family reunification visa for yourself. All you need to do is apply for a CRUE. Find out more about this when your husband goes to SEF in September.

@milenadaley My name is actually Cristian, and not Christina. ;-)

Yes, we shipped our belongings from Canada and it took 5 months to receive them - it was at the peak of Covid when there were enormous backlogs in shipping and huge prices. We needed a baggage certificate of course, which is easy to obtain from the Consulate.

Not sure though why you need reunification with your husband since you have EU citizenship, doesn't make any sense. Just go to the Camara Municipal with your EU passport and get a Certificado de Registo for EU citizens and that's that, you don't need any reunification.

@ctomac

Hi Christian,

first, sorry for the misspelling of your name … too much screen time yesterday.

thank you for the quick follow up!

yes, we went to the municipality yesterday. They confirmed what you had said. We were not aware of this option at leaving Canada.

What they suggested is for me to apply for the CRUE certificate and for my husband to go to the SEF meeting which he has already scheduled. His SEF meeting is based on his D7 application. He can then discuss with SEF which route is better and faster for him - to continue independently with his D7 or to transfer to the EU spouse ‘route’.

@ctomac also, from what I understood about CRUE (from the municipality and from reading the SEF site),  the certificate is good for 5 years and then I can apply for permanent residence certificate with SEF.

At the same time my husband (as a holder of non EU passport) seems to be able to apply for permanent residence immediately with SEF either based on my CRUE OR based his current D7 application (whichever he decides).

However, it seems (from what we have read), that if he wants to take advantage of the NHR tax regime, he needs to proceed with the D7.

Did you ship your luggage from Canada after you had arrived in Portugal and had obtained your CRUE? 

Also, just curious, which application did you use on your mobile for re-dialing?

thank you!