EVs in Indonesia

As a note (needs checking), I believe EVs are exempt from the odd/even policy.
One of the new generations of small, cheap EVs might well be a good move when production gets going.
After all, the vast majority of us only short range town drive anyway, so we have to ask if we actually need anything bigger.

https://indonesia.go.id/kategori/editor … -indonesia

I've been aware for some time of the Indonesian government's interest in promoting EVs and renewable energy, but I was unaware of a possible 'convert to EV' program.
That will be interesting if it gets off the ground.

There are 2 problems at the moment - EVs are commonly too expensive, and range is an issue for a lot of people.
The battery swap idea looks after both problems as far as current models go, but there might be a little surprise coming in 6 to 12 months that will change the game in a significant way.

I rode in a Bluebird EV taxi a while ago - Nice vehicle, but this last two days let me see two EV cars actually on the road actually driven by average people.
The first was  Hyundai KONA - I only noticed because it didn't have an exhaust.
This afternoon, a Wuling something.

These are far from common at the moment but I believe we're about to see a massive change in how we travel.

Until pln upgrades the domestic elecricity supply I doubt it  ,for a slow charge you need 3.6 to 7.4 kw  most houses here do not have that capacity  .

scouser59 wrote:

Until pln upgrades the domestic elecricity supply I doubt it  ,for a slow charge you need 3.6 to 7.4 kw  most houses here do not have that capacity  .

The big idea at the moment is battery swap but there's a potential for something very different.
Watch this space as it's not public knowledge yet.

It's looking like Gesits might have a new design on the way

https://www.oto.com/berita-motor/gesits … i-wujudnya

Swapping batteries for bikes is being used for bikes a little in asia taiwan etc ,but its still early stages . Cars is still at the experimental stage .

Personally I would not buy a chinese car or fly on a chinese plane , so I have no interest .

The Chinese aircraft industry is something I'm unsure about at the moment, but the cars have come on a long way.
The main reason I trust them is they make the things to pass EU regulations, that including crash testing.
Your point, and I can see why you think that way, is exactly the same argument that was made against Japanese cars in the early 80s, but regs have forced Chinese manufacturers to  change very quickly.
I will be test driving a Wuling the moment I can. I don't actually want to buy one at the moment but I really want to see what it will do.
I suspect, as a town car, it's going to be pretty good at its job.

I test rode a Gesits

My first impression from looking at the bike, then prodding and poking, was a machine at around the same quality of a Honda or Yamaha.
I did some research before I went so I already knew the machine will run without a problem in heavy rain and, shocking as it is, floods almost up to seat hight (I have a great video).
Be careful of much cheaper hub motor machines - one manufacturer advised me by WA not to run their bikes in heavy rain.
It was test ridden with a passenger so it was dragging a combined weight of 200 kg or so.
The ride was smooth, the suspension worked a treat, and the steering was exactly as it should be, but 200 kg is a lot so it topped out at 35kph in all modes.

Conclusion - If I wanted a bike to run around town, this would do the job better than any internal combustion engine (ICE) machine as it will go through the floods we get here pretty much every time we get decent rainfall, even when Hondas and Yamahas would get stuck.
As the Gesits range is easily enough to last a few days of going to the shops, J.Co coffee, and so on, that isn't an issue, but the just shy of Rp. 30 million price tag puts it outside what I would pay for.

I had the displeasure of working in china 15 years ago , the machinery was poorly built with inferior materials , which causes many problems .

Truth from the general population was hard to find , and of course they were scared of the "party" , I was not very popular with the interpreters bcs they would not translate directly my words at meetings , bcs they were scared of ending up in a chinese prison .

An insider view is always a nice bonus - Thank you for sharing.
Was that one company or a few, and do you know if things have changed in the last 15 years?

From  information received over the last  years from colleages ,not much has changed , Xi Jinping has endeavoured to take further control of the population and in particular anyone who dares to speak against the communist dictatorship . Im sure you read the news , the Uyghurs ,hong kong , claims over taiwan , the south china sea etc etc etc .

An evil empire Imho.

I don't want to get too far into politics, partially because it's far from encouraged on the forum, but mostly because it's codswallop.

Dictatorship - No elections so I suppose so
Communist - Not so sure - They have a red flag, a ruling communist party, and a people's army, but they are the most successful capitalists in the world.

I like to look at who makes how much from what, so I read every story with a eye on who wrote it ... and some history.

As for the Uyghurs, the complaint comes from a country with an offshore concentration camp for Muslims held without trial. That isn't to say China is or isn't attacking that section of their population, just the country doing the moaning is in no position to complain.

Hong Kong is their place - I don't suppose it much matters what we like or dislike  because we have zero say in it and can't do anything anyway. The British annexed the place after the first opium war but, even if HK had invited the British to take over, HM government can't say much as there was no democracy during UK rule.
Besides that, can you really trust a government that were nothing better than common drug dealers?

Taiwan was part of China until the ruling quasi-military dictatorship ran away to the island after the revolution. Like it or lump it, it was part of china until the losing dictatorship took it over. However, I won't be stressing out over who owns it now  because I really don't care.

The South CHINA sea is a very long way from the Californian coast. One does have to question why US carrier battle groups are there and, given they are, it does sort of explain why the Chinese are fortifying islands. I ruddy would as well.

At the end of the day it's politics so it's all a load of old bollocks anyway.

However, the point about quality is interesting but I wonder how much of that set of ideals will be imported to Chinese brands manufactured in Indonesia.

scouser59 wrote:

An evil empire Imho.

It's all about cash and power - Always was, always is, always will be.

Genghis Khan invaded, raped, and murdered. The British did the same, as did the Spanish. The Japanese did so in an especially nasty way, then gave us 1980s Datsun cars (The latter being really evil)
The French got some great deserts but buggered off before oil politics really took hold.
However, I'm assured they have excellent desserts.
The US were no better, but they did have far better propaganda.
The difference this time is the Chinese are gaining power and influence using economics rather than guns and bombs. I'm pretty sure gaining power using a debt trap is better than the Jallianwala massacre and Boer concentration camps.

Perhaps evil should be redefined as a comparative value rather than an Is or Isn't thing.

Personally I would never buy chinese transport products ,because I know the poor quality of engineering from personal experience .

If as seems you dont mind dictators ,your choice .
Not my preference .

scouser59 wrote:

Personally I would never buy chinese transport products ,because I know the poor quality of engineering from personal experience .

An experience I can't match so I have to wait and see what happens when these things hit the mass market. If they are as crap as you say, they'll fail tragically all over the world.

Your comments made me even more interested in keeping an eye on what happens quality wise. I have a professional interest in the subject but that doesn't include finish product. However, if the negotiations I'm engaged in at the moment are successful, that will change.
Really big "If" and a lot more chances of failure rather than success, but not trying is a guaranteed fail.

scouser59 wrote:

If as seems you dont mind dictators ,your choice .
Not my preference .

It's politics and something I can do a grand total of sod all about so not a lot of point getting stressed out or taking sides.
I suppose I could get all angry about Chinese Muslims being oppressed by the Chinese, or Chinese Americans getting attacked in the street by rednecks, but I don't know the truth about either so it seems a little pointless worrying about it.

Car battery swap are way past experimental stage
Check out the NIO brand in China.

https://youtu.be/hTsrDpsYHrw

Quality wise NIO, XPENG, BYD and LI are as good as western cars.

GOGORO in Taiwan has indeed launchef a motorcycle battery swap system
https://youtube.com/shorts/87T6okeKu3A?feature=share

Battery swap, at least for motorbikes, is a quick and easy option. The Gesits battery removes in seconds and is light enough for most people to carry a short distance with ease.
Cars are a different animal but, as I mentioned before, there is a possible game changer on the way.

Yap I had a look at nio information , interesting but local to china , I will wait until any technology moves worldwide and engineering is tested and proven to be safe and reliable .

Honestly I have a dim view of chinese engineering and electronics bcs of my experience working there .

I wait and watch progress .

I am perfectly happy with my japanese  reliable suv  and yamaha nmax , ya they pollute  a lttle .

scouser59 wrote:

I am perfectly happy with my japanese  reliable suv  and yamaha nmax , ya they pollute  a lttle .

But would you have bought Japanese in the 1970s?
Their cars had a terrible reputation and hardly sold outside Japan, but that changed when the OAPEC got really miffed with western countries and oil prices went sky high.
Now you're really happy with your Japanese machines.

The Chinese are the new Japanese, and climate change is the new 1973 oil crisis.

The Chinese saw this coming and planned in ways nobody else even thought seriously about. That's why they control not just the majority of the industry, but also most of the supply chain.
Whilst the west was fixated on oil, and the Japanese car industry rode that wave, the Chinese bought up control of pretty much everything today's vision of the future requires.

Now toss in a load of countries planning to dump ICE before 2050 and we have competing EV companies going mad to produce new designs, but only China is in a position to fully supply that demand. Of course, you could go to Tesla (Built at Tesla Giga Shanghai) if you want quality instead of Chinese rubbish.
In fairness, Renault, Hyundai, and VW have come up with some very nice designs that will sell well for the moment, but where are the Japanese?
Unless they really go for it and produce serious competitors over the next 12 months, their chances of doing much are remote at best, and that's only if they can get hold of raw materials from the Chinese owned/run/bought out on long term contracts supply chain.
RREs and other component minerals are sorted so the only supply issue for the Chinese industry is Lithium. Countries rich in that might well become the new Saudis.

I think my last message was quite succinct .

Why don't EV cars sell in many countries?
Range anxiety is a big thing
Cost is even bigger

The first is massive for anyone doing long runs, but that's getting to be a smaller issue as range extends and many people realise they only hang around in town so never exceed the car's range anyway.

The second is price. As far as Indonesia goes, that boils down to Korean or whatever at well over 700 million, or Wuling (and at least one other Chinese brand on the way) at 60 something million.
This is only a wild guess, but I can see the Chinese manufacturers doing quite well in the Indonesian EV car market.
Saying that, there are 2 potential curved balls trying to enter the Indonesian market. Both will retail at around 400 million, but both have game changing features that might very well give them a serious advantage.
There is one other, but I can't see that idea taking off.

scouser59 wrote:

I think my last message was quite succinct .

It was but, and please forgive me for being a little rude, I'm unsure it was accurate.
The tech has gone worldwide, and has passed UK, EU and US road safety rules.

With that hurdle jumped, it's down to price and marketing.
You can already buy a stupidly cheap car, and their marketing is being helped along by the green wave.
The more I look at the EV industry, the more I see Chinese manufacturers as the easy winners. It isn't just the cars, it's everything behind them.

https://otomotif.kompas.com/read/2021/1 … 127-jutaan

Suzuki are planning an EV car in 2025. They say they don't care about Chinese competition but at twice the price of Wuling's cheap offering and no availability for years, I think they may be doing what the British and American motor industries did in the 70s and 80s.

Unless Suzuki is planning to assemble in Indonesia, don’t even bother because of the huge cost for import.

bennl wrote:

Unless Suzuki is planning to assemble in Indonesia, don’t even bother because of the huge cost for import.

I don't think they (and all the rest) will have much of a choice. A battle for supremacy between Chinese, Japanese, Korean, and  local brands would be very good news for Indonesian customers.
However, the Chinese are a million miles ahead at the moment.

While the rest of the world was sleeping, China has become the global #1 manufacturer, making more $$$ then they could ever spend and spending it wisely on infrastructure, defence, space exploration, etc. The Chinese have always been busy bees and they’ve come a long way since made in China = crappie products  already. If you see what they’re already capable off, building a reliable EV should not be that much of an issue. Chances are if you have over a billion ants running  around, that there’s more than a handful of bright minds.

Post-Chairman Mao, China has developed everything assuming the future would go as it wanted - and it did,
They started with a massive reform of education, pushed as many Chinese students as possible to study abroad and return with their new found knowledge, then put that to work.
I understand there's a better than average chance they stole a lot of secrets as well, but that's politics so nothing to care about as there's nothing to be done about it.
They took their cash and invested it in as many strategic internal and foreign projects as possible, that putting them in a fantastic position as far as world trade political influence goes.
They have developed amazing solar and EV tech that's years ahead of the competition and, much as the EU and US are proposing massive overseas investment programs, they're also years behind China.
The above doesn't express support of disdain for China, but you have to admire how they did it.

Chinese factories in this country are going to create a lot of jobs, just as Chinese aided infrastructure did .. and gave the aforementioned factories a terrific distribution network. 

Whilst the west was trying to grab the last buck from fossil, then invading or bombing anyone they thought was useful to take over, China stuffed sacks of cash into new tech and invested in other countries - Which lot are daft?

Regardless of history, and concentrating on Indonesia, that means our EV range of cars and bikes is very likely to have Chinese names.

I can see Wuling being a normal part of Indonesian road life within a couple of years, and I can see Japanese brands losing out in a massive way to them.
We are experiencing a change that will alter politics and economics in Indonesia and well beyond.

https://jakartaglobe.id/business/hyunda … s-in-march

Hyundai’s Indonesian Plant to Build Electric Cars in March

They are a bit brave entering a market with vehicles at those prices but it's going to be very interesting to see what happens

Unofficial

https://ridertua.com/2022/01/07/bandero … diumumkan/

With a reasonable specification and a price of 17 million, it will kill the Gesits unless they move quickly. It would be a great pity if Gesits lost market share on price because I thought their machines rode very nicely and was of nice quality.
It might be noted, the Honda has a hub motor whilst the Gesits has an internal one - I have a great video of the Gesits going through a flood up to seat height. I have no idea if the Honda can match that but it's a very important thing to consider in Indonesia.

Good news for everyone

https://ekbis.sindonews.com/read/665087 … 1642932094

The upshot is Rp.114 billion is being invested in an EV ecosystem. This along with large Chinese companies building very cheap cars over here is likely to mean we're all going to see big changes over the next few years

While most of these initiatives should be applauded, it all remains to be seen what will trickle down to the people in the street. What is absolutely certain is that the "have's" will become a hell of a lot richer -again- at the expense of the "have nots", who will toil & sweat. Furthermore, EV's are great but need electricity, which comes from?? ............. Electricity plants of which there are by far not enough at this moment without EV's. Lastly, I would think twice before I would put all my eggs in China's basket.

bennl wrote:

Furthermore, EV's are great but need electricity, which comes from?? ............. Electricity plants of which there are by far not enough at this moment without EV's. Lastly, I would think twice before I would put all my eggs in China's basket.

https://jakartaglobe.id/business/indone … ower-plant

Indonesia Begins Construction of SE Asia's Largest Solar Power Plant

and more planned. Sadly, still a lot of fossil at the moment but I live in hope.

bennl wrote:

Lastly, I would think twice before I would put all my eggs in China's basket.

It's fine if alternatives are available. There are other, non-China, moves on the way but it would be unwise to discuss them in public.
The bright side is Chinese industry is bunging $ billions of investment into Indonesia. Not loans, actual cash. That will bring a lot of jobs and, I'm happy to say, a big chunk of that is in green projects.

I guess it’s a matter of time will tell. In general, if things sound to good to be true, they usually are, what’s the catch for China to invest heavily in Indonesia is what I would like to know?

bennl wrote:

I guess it’s a matter of time will tell. In general, if things sound to good to be true, they usually are, what’s the catch for China to invest heavily in Indonesia is what I would like to know?

The news tells you that one. China is out to become the largest trading power in the world and set up as many countries as they can to need them in order to expand their sphere of influence.
All the goals of war without a single shot fired.

Love it or hate it, they are very good at what they do.

Yes, they ARE very good in what they do. Do not underestimate the Chinese EVER and you are either with them or they feel you are against them. What I find striking though is the deafening silence of all Muslim countries on the mistreatment by the Chinese government of the Muslim population.

bennl wrote:

Yes, they ARE very good in what they do. Do not underestimate the Chinese EVER and you are either with them or they feel you are against them. What I find striking though is the deafening silence of all Muslim countries on the mistreatment by the Chinese government of the Muslim population.

That puts us into the world of politics, something I gave up on many years ago because bunfights are a waste of time. However, that doesn't mean I don't watch from a neutral angle.
Most of the complaints are coming from a country that started a number of wars against Muslims, keeps offshore concentration camps for Muslims, and runs overseas black sites where Muslims are held without trial.
Basically, they aren't in much of a position to complain.

Personally, I don't know the truth either way so I can't express an opinion as to what's happening in that area of China. Saying that, I do see massive hypocrisy and loads of propaganda so I don't want to go down that road.

Until power capacity  and domestic electrical systems increase substantially ,evs are a none starter .

scouser59 wrote:

Until power capacity  and domestic electrical systems increase substantially ,evs are a none starter .

Maybe, or maybe not. There are other moves that are not yet public.