Alternative document in place of a Birth Certificate ?

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Member since 10 May 2022

rdbrookesNew member12 July 2022 06:15:40

Hi, I am Richard Brookes, and I am in Indian citizen. I plan on getting married to my Brazilian girlified this year but I don't have a birth certificate. I was born in the country of Saudi Arabia 45 years ago and have no way to get my original birth certificate from there. I doubt I will even be able to track the records back that far.

In India, A passport and a church baptism certificate (among other Indian citizen identifications) suffices for most legal processes including marriage.

My Question: how can I get married in Brazil to my Brazilian fiancé without a birth certificate? is there an alternative document that can be produced as an equivalent proof?

thank you. this forum has already answered so many question. its amazing.

Cheers!

Richard Brookes

devorahmichaela Active member

Member since 08 March 2022

devorahmichaelaActive member12 July 2022 11:12:31

@rdbrookes Hi Richard,

Good morning. I am American and have been living in São Paulo for over 10 years. I have done both a Stable Union ( União Estavel ) your girlfriend knows what this is... and a marriage both here in Brazil. Yes, you DO need a birth certificate. Unfortunatly the Federal laws here in Brazil are extremely boring and strict regarding marriages and stable unions. They require at all costs a birth certificate and will not except an alternative. They will ask you go get the birth certificate from your country and will not be too understanding about your situation. In Brazil, they really just don´t care. I suffered SO much in this country trying to do that stupid stable union and then the marriage. They make you jump through hoops and spend hundreds of dollars. It is ridiculous. Be careful with Brazilian lawyers too.. you need a REALLY good one who won´t take advantage of your situation and tell you that all things are possible when they aren´t. It might be easier to live with your girlfriend in YOUR country or marry here there and then try to come back here to Brazil.

Richard, sorry for being negative... but I am being really honest with you. Brazil is painstaking when it comes to documents. They do it on purpose.

Devorah.

Texanbrazil Brazil Advisor

Member since 10 February 2018

TexanbrazilBrazil Advisor12 July 2022 11:53:46

2744

Devorah is correct. Brasil is strict on birth certificates. I presented a " short form" (just has my name and when and where I was born. Mom and dad had it when I was born) when applying for my RNE. PF would not accept it without my mother and father's full name and I had to obtain the long-form from my state of birth.

There are no other options.

abthree Brazil expert

Member since 28 December 2017

abthreeBrazil expert12 July 2022 12:12:16

5921

07/12/22 @rdbrookes Good morning, Richard.

What step of the process is your lack of a birth certificate holding up?

Are you in India (or a third country) and the missing document is preventing you from getting a Brazilian visa?
Are you in Brazil legally and the cartório is refusing to marry you for lack of a birth certificate?
Are you in Brazil illegally, probably from overstaying a visa?

Devorah and Tex are right that Brazil is very firm on birth certificates, but there are sometimes workarounds in the first two cases. There aren't any for the the last, so it would help to know your current status.

rdbrookes New member

Member since 10 May 2022

rdbrookesNew member12 July 2022 13:07:42

@abthree I live in India and I am currently in India. my fiancé will be coming to India for a couple of months and then we will be traveling back to Brazil where we plan to get married. I have travelled to several countries before but this is my first time to Brazil. i didn't mention it, but i do have 2 children from my first marriage. I am divorced and everything is clear in my legal history.

rdbrookes New member

Member since 10 May 2022

rdbrookesNew member12 July 2022 13:12:18

@devorahmichaela Wow, thanks Devorah, I guess its something I suspected. Honestly, its quite a simple process here in India. they don't make that big a deal of Indian citizens marrying Foreigners. My paperwork holds up in India. we could get married in India, but i will still need to be able to register our marriage in Brazil, because that's where we want to live eventually. All of her family is in Brazil. I was advised to get something called and NABC which stands for non-availability of birth certificate from an Indian court. but I am not sure that will hold up in Brazil either.

rdbrookes New member

Member since 10 May 2022

rdbrookesNew member12 July 2022 13:19:11

@Texanbrazil Getting the blue prints for the pyramids would be easier than getting my birth certificate from Saudi Arabia it was 45 years ago and I have no contacts in ARAMCO or in that country anymore. Surprisingly i lived there until i was 7 years old and it didn't seem like a document my parents thought I would need. WOW!

Texanbrazil Brazil Advisor

Member since 10 February 2018

TexanbrazilBrazil Advisor12 July 2022 13:31:56

2744

Have you tried the Saudi Arabia Consulate?

Go over to the Saudi Arabian Ministry of Interior’s website.

E-Services are the first option, followed by Civil Affairs.

Texanbrazil Brazil Advisor

Member since 10 February 2018

TexanbrazilBrazil Advisor12 July 2022 13:35:39

2744

@devorahmichaela Wow, thanks Devorah, I guess its something I suspected. Honestly, its quite a simple process here in India. they don't make that big a deal of Indian citizens marrying Foreigners. My paperwork holds up in India. we could get married in India, but i will still need to be able to register our marriage in Brazil, because that's where we want to live eventually. All of her family is in Brazil. I was advised to get something called and NABC which stands for non-availability of birth certificate from an Indian court. but I am not sure that will hold up in Brazil either.
- @rdbrookes

You may marry in India and register the marriage at the BR Embassy in India. It is a good start to begin the process of getting a Family Reunion Visa for Brazil.

rdbrookes New member

Member since 10 May 2022

rdbrookesNew member12 July 2022 13:54:21

#10

@Texanbrazil Hi Texan, I did consider this option. But i think a birth certificate is still needed in Brazil. i haven't confirmed if this is true. I will look into this if India is my only option. thanks!

Texanbrazil Brazil Advisor

Member since 10 February 2018

TexanbrazilBrazil Advisor12 July 2022 15:10:45

#11

2744

@Texanbrazil Hi Texan, I did consider this option. But i think a birth certificate is still needed in Brazil. i haven't confirmed if this is true. I will look into this if India is my only option. thanks!
- @rdbrookes

I was not saying registering the marriage will mean no birth certificate. (no way around this). I meant registering for marriage at the BR Embassy will get you one big step closer when applying for a permanent visa.

abthree Brazil expert

Member since 28 December 2017

abthreeBrazil expert12 July 2022 15:16:07

#12

5921

@rdbrookes. There are a lot of hurdles that you and your fiancée will have to jump, but it may be doable. You may need to spend a lot of time at the Brazilian Consulate until it's all settled and it will be useless to go there without her, so I would strongly suggest that she arrive with an open return, or one that she can extend at little or no charge. This will be a process of weeks, maybe months (worst case!), but probably not years.

The "usual" way to proceed would be for the two of you to get married under Indian law, register your marriage at the Brazilian Consulate, and then for you to apply, with her active, in-person support, for a VITEM XI family reunion visa to return to Brazil with her. There's a possibility that the Consulate could decline to register your marriage for lack of a birth certificate, but if you two can convince the Foreign Ministry to accept an alternative, the other agencies will probably fall into line. So with that out of the way, let's begin:

1. What the various levels of Brazilian officialdom really need is an official document, by preference Indian, that lists the complete names of yourself and both of your parents on it. This is necessary for all identity documentation in Brazil. Does such an official document exist that can be issued to you by the Indian Government? If it does, get at least four originals, and do that for every other document that I suggest. One of those is for your files, and to make more copies.

2. To prove the beginning and end of your first marriage (and any others you may have had) you will have to provide to the Consulate, and when you get to Brazil, to the Federal Police, originals or authenticated copies of your (1.) your original Marriage Certificate, and (2.) the Divorce Decree ending that marriage. Luckily for you, India is a party to the Apostille Convention: you'll need to have apostilles affixed (in India) to the versions that you give to the Federal Police, and you'll need to have Sworn Translations prepared in Brazil and submitted with them. This goes for any Indian documents you submit.

3. For the visa and for an Authorization of Residency from the Federal Police, you'll need a Criminal Background Check from the competent Indian authorities, and from any other country where you've lived during the preceding five years. Same drill: multiple originals, one with apostille, Sworn Translation required in Brazil. BTW, never try to remove an apostille once affixed. They're generally designed to destroy both themselves and the document to prevent tampering if removed.

4. Obtain the list of documents required for a VITEM XI from the Consulate. As soon after your marriage as you can obtain your new Marriage Certificate and all your documents, arrange for you and your wife to go to the Consulate together to register your marriage.

5. If the Consulate accepts your official document identifying you and your parents, proceed. If they balk, tell them about the impossibility of getting your actual birth certificate and ask them what are the acceptable alternatives. At this point, for your wife's sake, they have an interest in getting you into Brazil, and should cooperate.

6. When the Consulate registers your marriage, they'll give you a "Certidão de Registro de Casamento Consular" They'll offer you an opportunity to buy "2a Vias", which are duplicate originals on plain paper -- check the original CAREFULLY to ensure that all information is correct, then spend the extra money! You'll now have your first official Brazilian document that lists your parents on it. Ask about how to schedule your VITEM XI application, and what additional documents, if any, you'll need to bring.

7. Following the advice above, apply for your VITEM XI. Once you have it, you're good to go.

8. As soon as you're in Brazil, your wife (you can go with her, but she's the one doing this) should bring the Certidão from the Consulate to the Cartório do 1o Ofício in her hometown and give it to them (this is why you have extras) to record in their books. In seven to ten business days, she'll return to the cartório to receive a "Traslado de Casamento" your official Brazilian Marriage Certificate. Again, check it carefully before accepting it, and have any errors corrected. You'll now have your SECOND official Brazilian document with your identifying information on it.

9. While you're waiting for the Traslado, have Sworn Translations made of all the documents that you'll be submitting to the Federal Police. You can find Sworn Translators in your wife's city with a web search, and there are services that will perform Sworn Translations online and send you the files to print out. I've had good experiences with fidelity.com.br, but there are now several. Sworn Translations never expire, so you won't need to have the same document translated more than once, if you keep copies.

10. Make your appointment with the Federal Police to request your Authorization for Residency and your ID card, your CRNM. Go as a couple, with the documents required on the Family Reunion checklist on their site, all your apostilled and translated documents. Present only the documents on the checklist, but hold the others in reserve to answer any questions. Chances are good that you'll come out a resident of Brazil.

mberigan Serial expat

Member since 21 January 2020

mberiganSerial expat12 July 2022 15:42:18

#13

306

What a topic!!! But the resources (contributors) in this forum always give reason for hope to overcome near-impossible situations.

.....which gives me pause for there are many (3million+) Brazilians who don't have documentation and are therefore invisible to the gov't that represents them.

I used to do a lot of work with "catadores" of recycled material. Heavens! So many were not only illiterate but completely undocumented.

I only point this out because it is important, if you're going to live here, to understand the situation that Brazilian-born citizens face.

Example story (2021): https://english.elpais.com/usa/2021-12- … izens.html

rdbrookes New member

Member since 10 May 2022

rdbrookesNew member15 July 2022 08:32:40

#14

@abthree" What the various levels of Brazilian officialdom really need is an official document, by preference Indian, that lists the complete names of yourself and both of your parents on it. This is necessary for all identity documentation in Brazil. Does such an official document exist that can be issued to you by the Indian Government? If it does, get at least four originals, and do that for every other document that I suggest. One of those is for your files, and to make more copies. "

The Indian passport is a government-issued document that holds both parents names and my date of birth.

GuestPoster6111 Guest

GuestPoster6111Guest15 July 2022 11:56:07

#15

214245

@rdbrookes Hello Rd ! You can reason as much you want giving logics but it just wont work. Try to go to your regional SDM office and ask for ways to get a BC otherwise get married in India , register the marriage there with consulate first.

abthree Brazil expert

Member since 28 December 2017

abthreeBrazil expert15 July 2022 12:23:19

#16

5921

07/15/22 @rdbrookes, Samsii's suggestion to approach the local authorities for a duplicate or alternative document is a good one: many countries have substitutes for Birth Certificates that would appear identical to the Brazilian Consulate, or at least be recognized.

It could probably also be worthwhile to ask the Brazilian Consulate what alternative documents to a Birth Certificate they are able to accept for the VITEM XI application. This can't be the first time they've run into this situation.

rdbrookes New member

Member since 10 May 2022

rdbrookesNew member16 July 2022 07:50:30

#17

@Samsii Getting married in India.... It looks like this is the direction i will have to take. thank you.

rdbrookes New member

Member since 10 May 2022

rdbrookesNew member16 July 2022 07:59:23

#18

@abthree Thanks Abthree, your 10 points have become the foundation to my future plans. I would keep the forum posted with my progress and share my successes and failures in this journey. Cheers!

ltoby955 Serial expat

Member since 15 July 2022

ltoby955Serial expat16 July 2022 18:33:20

#19

320

In some countries being together for 3 years counts as common law, is that different in Brazil?

abthree Brazil expert

Member since 28 December 2017

abthreeBrazil expert16 July 2022 18:40:23

#20

5921

07/16/22 In some countries being together for 3 years counts as common law, is that different in Brazil?
- @ltoby955

In Brazil if a couple lives together for a year, they can claim Civil Union status, "União Estável". They can also claim it sooner rather than waiting a year by recording their relationship at a cartório. Since a foreigner in Brazil on a tourist visa can't stay longer than six months max, a cartório registration is the only practical way for most foreigners to claim the status. A cartório will only register a marriage or a união estável that includes a foreigner if the foreigner has a valid visa -- no overstays.

Houston_Rio Member

Member since 30 June 2022

Houston_RioMember18 July 2022 02:51:31

#21

@rdbrookes A Document certified from the Brasilian Consulate from which you received your VISA is sufficient. I married in Porto Velho, Rondonia and registered at a local cartorio using a local attorney in Brasil using a certified document. My original Birth Certificate has a different last name as one often would have being adopted. The document was translated with both names of my parents. An Apostile may or may not be required. I did not need it in 2005. Contact the Brazilian consulate if your VISA

abthree Brazil expert

Member since 28 December 2017

abthreeBrazil expert18 July 2022 11:35:32

#22

5921

07/18/22 An Apostile may or may not be required. I did not need it in 2005. Contact the Brazilian consulate if your VISA
- @Houston_Rio

The Apostille Convention took effect in Brazil on August 14, 2016. Prior to that date, Brazil required Consular Legalization; since that date, only apostilles are accepted from other Parties to the Convention.

rdbrookes New member

Member since 10 May 2022

rdbrookesNew member07 March 2023 09:10:13

#23

Hi everyone,

The sad truth is that the system is made to facilitate people like me and my wife.. . And unfortunately it only makes it more difficult.

I did eventually my Brazilian fiance and we were able to get married in India quite easily. We have also been blessed with a pregnancy and our baby is due in 3 months. It all good and beautiful.

The sad bit is... we cant get our marriage recognized in the Brazilian consulate in India because I don't have a birth certificate. I am still be haunted by this.

My wife needs to return back to Brazil for the delivery our baby, we'll that's where all her family is and she is probably more confident in the Brazil medical system than India.

I am going to appeal to the Brazilian consulate in India considering we are legally married and have a child on the way. I just hope they can look past their rules and consider our case so that we can start our family in Brazil together.

While I am still going to be able to travel to Brazil with her to be present for the birth of our baby, I won't be able to file for a residence visa or have our marriage recognized in Brazil unless the embassy in India accepts our marriage without expecting me to furbish a certificate thats impossible for me to get. Someone in the forums did mentioned that if my baby was born in Brazil to a Brazilian national, I could file for a residence ... but it's not the primary objective. I just need my marriage to be recognized so we don't face future issues in Brazil or anywhere else in the world

Well, All that is left for me to do...is beg at the consulate and pray.

God speed. Stay well.

abthree Brazil expert

Member since 28 December 2017

abthreeBrazil expert07 March 2023 10:38:02

#24

5921

03/07/23 @rdbrookes. Congratulations to you and your wife on the upcoming birth of your child.

I'm very glad that you checked back in, and glad that you'll be in Brazil for the birth. Once you're actually in Brazil legally (I assume on a tourist visa?) and your child is born, you will be beyond the reach of the Foreign Ministry's VITEM XI system, and have access to the Justice Ministry's Authorization for Residency system through the Federal Police. They operate under similar rules but are two different systems, and the Federal Police system should have some flexibility for someone in your situation.

My suggestion is to engage a Brazilian attorney when you arrive to help you obtain residency; that person can probably help you get your marriage recognized, as well.

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