Can a CRNM be obtained without purchasing property or living in Rio

05/26/24 @easygoer1050.  Is it possible to get a CRNM without purchasing property or living in Rio?  Absolutely!  Your wife can return to live in Brazil anytime and, as her spouse, she can bring you with her and you will qualify for a CRNM, all the more easily because you've already registered your marriage -- good decision! 

The only possible hangup -- which may or may not be a hangup for you at all, depending on your plans -- is that you and your wife really need to be moving to Brazil, or at least convince the relevant Brazilian authorities that you're about to move here.  It's never a good idea to lie to the Federal Police, and if your plan is to live in Brazil "maybe sometime in the future", then their response will probably be "Come back and talk to us then".

@abthree

Thanks...Yes that is the problem---we are NOT living in Brazil for awhile...if ever------but still am looking at the possibility of opening a bank account---that is the possibility I am looking for.......Are there any banks in the US (that can be opened here) and still be utilized in Brazil?

0526/24    @abthreeThanks...Yes that is the problem---we are NOT living in Brazil for awhile...if ever------but still am looking at the possibility of opening a bank account---that is the possibility I am looking for.......Are there any banks in the US (that can be opened here) and still be utilized in Brazil?       -@easygoer1050

Not that I know of.  Someone will eventually suggest an online bank to you.  They seem a little sketchy to me and definitely function in a gray zone, but they may meet your needs. 

But remember, there are no barriers to your wife's opening an account in a Brazilian bank.

I believe Itau has joint accounts.  Most banks I have been with (I have 2 digital and 3 bricks and mortar accounts, so I feel I know something about this), do not ordinarily open joint accounts, but your case may be different since you are legally married. 

I heard HSBC would open an account with only an RNM.  The easiest way is to just (possibly) use a VNM saying you are in Sao Paulo or Rio, and try to open an account with your CPF only.  I would do a Google search.

Also, what is your age?  If over 60, you can get independent residency in Brazil through the VITEM XIV visa, which can easily be obtained (versus I can't believe, although I kind of can). It took many attempts to get a CPF in Orlando?  In my humble opinion, and people have laughed at the truth of this, the 2nd most popular sport in Brazil is playing Fooze Ball with the small players being GRINGOS in Brazil!  They love to wack us around.

You can Private message me I have a great handler for Visas in Brazil who lives in Houston and you can do everything by Fedex.  Cheers! 

05/27/24  I heard HSBC would open an account with only an RNM.  The easiest way is to just (possibly) use a VNM saying you are in Sao Paulo or Rio, and try to open an account with your CPF only.  I would do a Google search.

    -@rsrenfrew

HSBC sold their Brazilian operations to Bradesco in 2015.

Not that I know of.  Someone will eventually suggest an online bank to you.  They seem a little sketchy to me and definitely function in a gray zone, but they may meet your needs.      -@abthree

There's nothing "sketchy" about the big "online banks". Fintechs are regulated and adhere to Brazilian banking rules. What is this "gray zone"? Nubank, which I use, has more 92 million customers in Brazil, 7 million in Mexico and almost 1 million in Colombia. It has a stock market capitalization of US$56 billion. Its shares,  which are listed on the NY Stock Exchange, have risen by about 50% so far this year, making investors like me very happy.  It didn't get there by being "sketchy". I've been far happier with Nubank (and its shares) than with any of the brick-and-mortar banks I've dealt with during my 25 years in Brasil.

@abthree

Yes  The online is always an option but DEFINTELY sketchy

My wife does have an a bank ITAU   but they wont add me unless a CRNM again (I was in a branch in Rio 2 weeks ago and after waiting  that is what I was told)  Funny being there reminded me of being in a DMV years ago in NY   lol

I just wanted to have an option for myself and add my wife  ---as I wanted it under mine name as well

thanks

@rsrenfrew

Hi thanks for adding.....  I am 57  -wife is 51   ITAU told me flat out....I need a CRNM and a CPF  (that I have)    they really do not care about residence as I can use a family member their....

@rsrenfrew

I will try and reach out tonight     

I have a travel visa only at this time.....

@jonesio

Jonesio   No disrespect about "sketchy"....but do they have online statements?..can you open with only a CPF?.......can you acquire a mortgage through them?...just curious to see if you know......can you speak to a customer service rep anytime? (or only via email)  thanls for any help  Mickey

05/27/24 There's nothing "sketchy" about the big "online banks". Fintechs are regulated and adhere to Brazilian banking rules. What is this "gray zone"? Nubank, which I use, has more 92 million customers in Brazil, 7 million in Mexico and almost 1 million in Colombia. It has a stock market capitalization of US$56 billion. Its shares,  which are listed on the NY Stock Exchange, have risen by about 50% so far this year, making investors like me very happy.  It didn't get there by being "sketchy". I've been far happier with Nubank (and its shares) than with any of the brick-and-mortar banks I've dealt with during my 25 years in Brasil.
   

    -@jonesio

Whatever floats your boat.  Hard, permanent "No" here.

    @jonesio
Jonesio   No disrespect about "sketchy"....but do they have online statements?..can you open with only a CPF?.......can you acquire a mortgage through them?...just curious to see if you know......can you speak to a customer service rep anytime? (or only via email)  thanls for any help  Mickey
   

    -@easygoer1050

Regarding Nubank, which I use and which yesterday surpassed Itau to become the most valuable Latin American bank when measured by stock market capitalization:

Online statements = yes.

Only CPF = I have no personal experience because I have permanência, But from what I have read elsewhere others have done so.

Mortgage = Personal loans, but I don't think mortgages (although I've never had need for one, so I am not certain).

Speak to customer service rep = yes, I have done so during a credit fraud attempt. Service was excellent

    05/27/24 There's nothing "sketchy" about the big "online banks". Fintechs are regulated and adhere to Brazilian banking rules. What is this "gray zone"? Nubank, which I use, has more 92 million customers in Brazil, 7 million in Mexico and almost 1 million in Colombia. It has a stock market capitalization of US$56 billion. Its shares,  which are listed on the NY Stock Exchange, have risen by about 50% so far this year, making investors like me very happy.  It didn't get there by being "sketchy". I've been far happier with Nubank (and its shares) than with any of the brick-and-mortar banks I've dealt with during my 25 years in Brasil.        -@jonesio

Whatever floats your boat.  Hard, permanent "No" here.
   

    -@abthree

My financial boat is floated by my fintech's non-existent) fees in most cases, much higher savings investment returns, lower borrowing rates, ease of use compared with brick-and-mortar banks, and a host of other factors. These yesterday helped Nubank surpass Itau to become the most valuable Latin American bank when measured by stock market capitalization (US$58.2 billion). As I mentioned, it has 92 million customers in Brasil, yet you  use the word "sketchy", with no justification,  to describe online banks that have surpassed the archaic and difficult traditional banks in Brasil with a better business model. Of course, banking is a personal choice, but you are misleading members of this forum with your characterization.

        05/29/24 Of course, banking is a personal choice, but you are misleading members of this forum with your characterization.
   

    -@jonesio

Whatever.  No one is required to act on any advice that I give, or even accept it.  When expats ask how to establish a bank account in Brazil, I'll continue to tell them to the best of my ability how to be successful with regulated commercial banks -- and I'll continue to warn them to be wary of online "banks".  As far as I'm concerned, a "bank" that doesn't charge its customers for services, pays "higher than average" returns, and doesn't comply with standard Banco Central identification requirements may not exactly scream "Ponzi Scheme!" -- but it does more than simply suggest it.  The name "Washington Mutual" immediately comes to mind.  As does the word "sketchy".  That's all I have to say on the subject.  People will continue to trust their money to these outfits, just as they will continue to put their money into blockchain "investments", but not without being cautioned.

Anytime that you think I cross a line, feel free to report me:  you can be sure that your complaint will be received courteously by the team in Mauritius, as all are.

I do not think it is wise to direct new residents to online banking like Nubank. There are several services that these banks cannot offer, unlike normal Brazilian banks, such as transfers using Iban and Swift codes, face to face account advice, secured loans, negotiating special deals, investment advice, personal assistance, etc.

There are also laws and guarantees that probably do not cover these internet banks in certain circumstances, and I for one do not think they are worth the risk.

            05/29/24 Of course, banking is a personal choice, but you are misleading members of this forum with your characterization.         -@jonesioWhatever.  No one is required to act on any advice that I give, or even accept it.  When expats ask how to establish a bank account in Brazil, I'll continue to tell them to the best of my ability how to be successful with regulated commercial banks -- and I'll continue to warn them to be wary of online "banks".  As far as I'm concerned, a "bank" that doesn't charge its customers for services, pays "higher than average" returns, and doesn't comply with standard Banco Central identification requirements may not exactly scream "Ponzi Scheme!" -- but it does more than simply suggest it.  The name "Washington Mutual" immediately comes to mind.  As does the word "sketchy".  That's all I have to say on the subject.  People will continue to trust their money to these outfits, just as they will continue to put their money into blockchain "investments", but not without being cautioned.Anytime that you think I cross a line, feel free to report me:  you can be sure that your complaint will be received courteously by the team in Mauritius, as all are.        -@abthree

But these ARE "regulated commercial banks" that must adhere to the same regulations and that have the same government deposit protection in Brasil as the banks you seem to worship, including FGC protection for some types of deposits and government federal guarantees on deposits linked to government notes. In the case of Nubank, you are behaving like the bank with largest market capitalization in Brasil and all of Latin America is a fly-by-night operation. To the contrary, it is currently worth more than US$58 billion and has carefully grown and managed its business. It has also rewarded its shareholders to a much greater extent than traditional Brazilian banks, which are far less efficient and profitable (by per-customer, percentage of revenue and other measures) than banks in other parts of the world. That's why old-style Brasil banks are now playing catch-up by establishing new banking services that mimic the fintechs that are taking away their customers in droves.

I'm not about to "report" anybody.  What I am doing here is disagreeing with you, and pointing out that you are ill-informed, which you clearly don't seem to like. If you insist on hanging on to the notion that it is best to stand in line at an archaic Bradesco, Itau, Banco do Brasil, Caixa etc. branch (and stand in line you will, over and over), that's fine. But don't try to suggest that others do the same by painting a picture that is neither accurate nor informed and by using incorrect labels such as "sketchy" and "Ponzi Scheme". In a few words: you don't know what you're talking about in this case, and it shows.

    I do not think it is wise to direct new residents to online banking like Nubank. There are several services that these banks cannot offer, unlike normal Brazilian banks, such as transfers using Iban and Swift codes, face to face account advice, secured loans, negotiating special deals, investment advice, personal assistance, etc.
There are also laws and guarantees that probably do not cover these internet banks in certain circumstances, and I for one do not think they are worth the risk.
   

    -@Peter Itamaraca

Banks like Nubank will suit the needs of some new residents, but not others. Many new residents have simple, straightforward banking needs. As for Iban and Swift transfers, those are among the most costly and slowest ways to transfer money to Brasil, thanks to Banco Central involvement. There are faster, cheaper and less-bureaucratic ways to get that done these days. As for "risks", online banks in Brasil operate under the same regulations and government protection as traditional banks. They charge lower fees and offer better deposit rates because they are more efficient than the dinosaurs and do not have to maintain expensive branch networks. But you're correct in saying they don't offer the same range of services, so not everyone's needs are met by fintechs.

In any event, I'm not suggesting anything other than the fact that certain forum members should not be labelling certain banks "sketchy" because they are ill-informed and have an unreasonable bias.

@jonesio

Ok thanks  I will call and ask/see what they say

05/30/24         As for "risks", online banks in Brasil operate under the same regulations and government protection as traditional banks. They charge lower fees and offer better deposit rates because they are more efficient than the dinosaurs and do not have to maintain expensive branch networks. But you're correct in saying they don't offer the same range of services, so not everyone's needs are met by fintechs.     -@jonesio

That is not true; I insisted the other day  that I wouldn't have more to say on this subject (and would have preferred to leave it that way), but I'll make an exception for apparent falsehoods.  They do not "operate under the same regulations and government protections as traditional banks" because  they aren't legally banks.  They're legally finance companies, technically payment processors, and operate under the rules for that class of businesses, and in the gaps between them.  As for "government protections" some of NuBank's accounts -- but not all of them -- have the benefit of the FGC, Brazil's equivalent of the FDIC, because NuBank runs the money through actual banks that DO participate in the FGC, not because NuBank does itself.

As for international transfers and Banco Central "involvement", ALL international transfers in and out of Brasil are supposed to take place under Banco Central supervision, so to the extent that financial organizations evade the law, IF they do (and at the very least, if they're going through legal intermediaries behind the scenes and not being transparent about it), that meets the dictionary definition of "sketchy", as far as I'm concerned.

Everybody is entitled to their own opinions, and you're certainly entitled to yours, and to campaign for them, for whatever reasons you may have.  You are not, however, entitled to your own facts, or to confuse one with the other.

    Good afternoon All:
Overall I have found these pages to be informative over the past.  I currently live in  Florida and I am married to a Brazillian woman for 7 years. We recently got our marriage certified in Brazil (who knew..lol)  I was able to get a CPF via the Orlando office after many tries .  We are not sure where we will eventually end up but I would like to open a bank account in Rio.  I went to ITAU --2 weeks ago when there--and was told I also need a CRNM.   I was wondering is it possible to get one WITHOUT purchasing 1 million reis home ?  Just looking into options and wondering if anyone here has done it.  Thanks... 
   

    -@easygoer1050

Yes you can.  You can become a tenant for life, and for as long as you have a legal declared place of residence, you might claim permanent residence.

Yet, you need to file for immigration papers.  A marital union might help you to expedite the process.

@jonesio

The biggest reason for new Brazilian residents not to use Nubank and others such, is that you cannot qualify for certain visas without transferring through the Central Bank of Brazil. It is key to the whole process.

Indeed all transfers to Brazil are supposed to go this way, though there are also several others ways to get even better deals than Nubank offer, if you want to transfer cheaper.

    05/30/24         ...They do not "operate under the same regulations and government protections as traditional banks" because  they aren't legally banks.  They're legally finance companies, technically payment processors, and operate under the rules for that class of businesses, and in the gaps between them.      -@abthree

Nubank obtained a Brazilian banking licence in May 2017, after a presidential decree exempted it from foreign ownership rules.

As far as FGC is concerned, Nu is one of the 250 "instituições associadas", and its customers are eligible for protection. Like all banks, some of its products are not covered.

    @jonesioThe biggest reason for new Brazilian residents not to use Nubank and others such, is that you cannot qualify for certain visas without transferring through the Central Bank of Brazil. It is key to the whole process.Indeed all transfers to Brazil are supposed to go this way, though there are also several others ways to get even better deals than Nubank offer, if you want to transfer cheaper.         -@Peter Itamaraca

Traditional bank transfers are hobbled by central-bank-related bureacracy, which often introduces delays and costs into the transfer process, as well as lack of clarity about the final exchange rate. There are better ways, which still meet central bank reporting requirements and are far more efficient. There is a difference between "transferring through" and "reporting to" the Banco Central. One of those is the popular Wise transfer service, which reports to the Banco Central (See DIÁRIO OFICIAL DA UNIÃO, Publicado em: 26/01/2021 | Edição: 17 | Seção: 3 | Página: 27.)  Btw, I have never suggested transfers through NuBank (done through their partner, Remessa, whose service I have found to be worse than similar operations, such as Wise).

I assume, but correct me if you have evidence to the contrary, that the percentage of Brasil permanent visa applicants whose applications are dependent on money transfers is small and that most fall in the "family reunion" category. I believe most applications are not related to real estate or other investments in the country, which must satisfy Banco Central reporting requirements. That would mean, in the majority of cases, the Banco Cental plays no role in the visa process.

And, of course, by the time the people to whom you refer become "new residents" they will have already completed the visa process and satisfied the financial requirements to obtain that visa. Consequently, they will already be well acquainted with the money-transfer process and the institutions involved.

@jonesio, this thread has diverged significantly from its original intent.  I actually want to know more about banking in Brazil as I am finding dealing with banks a PITA - mainly because I do not understand how they work and how they can grow, explode, or implode etc.  But banks are a fact of life....

Would it be possible for your next reply to be in an appropriately named new thread on the subject - for the sake of new expats who want to be educated on banks - like me?

Looking forward to hearing all about it.

    @jonesio, this thread has diverged significantly from its original intent.
   

    -@Pablo888

My apologies for the divergence. I wanted to counter some banking myths being repeated by certain group members, and their subsequent, somewhat-distorted replies. As a resident of Brasil for close to 25 years with fairly sophisticated financial services, professional and investment requirements here and abroad my experience has obviously differed considerably from theirs. I'll give some thought to your suggestion.