Legalized Documents?

You know, my next-door neighbor just got back from the states. Before he left he was telling me what he had to do for his visa, and I said WTF!!

I said why do you have to do these extra steps, since when I got   my visa it was enough to simply have those documents apostilled OR legalized. It was one or the other, and he was doing both. I was sort of skeptical about whether he knew what he was doing, but you just repeated what he told me.

Sounds like this a new change to the process.

Neil: Is there a charge for the legalization? Something I need to add to my budget for this process?

In any case -- it sounds not at all painful, just another hoop to jump through.

Bob

Bob,
My cost for the legalization was $ 40.00 for 6 documents, which included my Social Security letter, so it was pretty reasonable.
I would think it would be the same at all the different offices.
My state charged $ 5.00 per document to Apostille, but I know some states are much higher.
Good Luck
Neil

A change in the process???? Naw, couldn't be.
I leave in 30 days and wonder how many changes there will be in that time.

ZenSPIKE wrote:

Bob,
My cost for the legalization was $ 40.00 for 6 documents, which included my Social Security letter, so it was pretty reasonable.
I would think it would be the same at all the different offices.
My state charged $ 5.00 per document to Apostille, but I know some states are much higher.
Good Luck
Neil

Forty bucks isn't bad, and I suppose the number of documents needed shouldn't vary much from case to case.

I've only had to have an apostille done once and it was a couple years ago (in Illinois). I don't recall the amount, so it obviously wasn't enough to sear my memory. But it was also a single document. I'll check into that, but obviously that's one of those things the governments have monopolies on, so whatever price they want to charge, we pay it.

I'll be back in the states in mid-September and dealing with this stuff in Sept-Nov, so as you indicate, it may all have changed by then.

You said you hired an attorney -- at this point would you say that was a necessity, a nice-to-have, or a waste?

Bob

Bob,
As all things Ecuadorian, I can't say it is a good choice for everyone. For me, it was. I absolutely have no patience, which of course is very detrimental in S. America. I also have a tendency to be a worrier, and have zero Spanish skills. For those reasons, this was a wise choice for me, to just throw all my stuff at the attorneys, and let them handle it.
I have heard conflicting reports about the new Visa office in Cuenca. Some say they speak perfect English, and will be very helpful and make the process very easy. I also heard of a story where some folks couldn't even get in the dang building.
I will offer this though. Just my experience, so take it for what it is.
If they are as good as the consulate is here in Minneapolis, I would say by all means, you could accomplish it on your own. The office has been up and running for awhile now in Cuenca, so perhaps some of the kinks have been ironed out.
Biggest thing of course, in either of the choices, is to have ALL your documents in order prior to arrival.
I swear to God, no matter what they change in the system, I have every document that has ever been created in my life on this earth, so I feel pretty confident that I'll be covered.
Stay Well,
Neil

Guys, what I understand from the way my process went, you either have to legalize OR Apostle. My lawyer told me that Legalization is necessary ONLY if your country of origin does not have an "Apostle Agreement" with Ecuador. Since India does have such an agreement, only Apostle is sufficient. I am sure even US has such an agreement, so legalization does not seem logical. Also, I was further told that it is not possible to legalize an Apostled document as Apostle is a higher and more controlled process, being done by the government of your country as against an external embassy.

I arrived in Ecuador the first of Feb, 2012. At that time there were huge upheavals in the process and what seemed like changes every day. I didn't get my Visa until August. But, the process was not that difficult, just time consuming. They had just started requiring on-line applications. Usually, they will explain clearly what you need and many Ministries  will give you a piece of paper with the exact written requirements - you may have to ask. But, there will always be some hitch. For example, I had someone help me fill in a form. Because of that, they made me go to a lawyer to certify that that person was representing me  - it actually was just a friend (cost about $12 bucks and three hours time while the document was prepared).

Here are a few things that helped me.
1. All documents, certifications, etc. were less than 6 months old. If not, they may not accept them. Have lots of color copies of your passport.

2. I had a notarized and Apostiled a copy of every legal document that pertained to my existence, status, income, current health statement or police record. This includes your educational diplomas if you want your education level on your Cedula (National ID card obtained in a separate process). This saved my butt on a number of occasions because only later did someone decide one or more of these were required. Tip: say you are not married if you are divorced. Otherwise, you have to put your previous spouse's name on your Cedula (go figure).

3. I got a 6-month visa from the Ecuadorian Consulate (in D.C.) before I left. In that process, they collected all the documents that were required at the time (as well as translations), stapled them, and put Consulate stamps on everything. I think the 6-month visa was $230, but once again, this really helped, especially those stapled papers. They were accepted without comment or question.

As with everything in Ecuador, every person's experience is different and never think you have everything you need. This will force you to cover as many bases as you are able; and that is a very good thing. One final tip, once you get your visa and Cedula, you will be required to vote in an election. They issue a card saying you did. If you don't have this, you won't be able to do some simple things, like open a bank account. If you don't have the card, you can go to a local voting office and get this resolved (I think there is a fine) but it is better if you just vote. If you are old enough, you can get an exception to voting, but why? They tell you exactly where to vote (exact address, building, floor, and table number) and the wait is usually nonexistent.

¿Quienes están habilitados para votar?

Todas las ecuatorianas y ecuatorianos comprendidos entre los 18 a los 65 años de edad tienen la obligación de votar.

Para los extranjeros residentes en el Ecuador por más de cinco años, los jóvenes entre 16 y 18 años, los presos sin sentencia condenatoria ejecutoriada y los ecuatorianos residentes en el exterior, su voto es opcional.

I don´t think voting is ever a requirement for foreigners living here on a resident visa, and according to that paragraph above, it only becomes optional after living here 5 years.

So, I went back today to pick up my paperwork, and had an opportunity to speak to my Consular Agent. Regarding the redundant certifications:
I asked Carlos if the requirements had recently changed as far as having the Apostille and the Legalization both required. He questioned it when it first became a requirement. He contacted the powers that be in Ecuador, and asked why you would double up on the verification. He couldn't understand the requirement change either.
The way he understood it, it all had to do with a newly released software update on their system, and evidently it was a requirement of the new system. He still seemed baffled, as I was.

WHY does Minneapolis have a Consulate?

I asked, and got what I thought was a shocking response. He informed me that Mpls. had 4,300 Ecuadorians. I was amazed!! I guess I shouldn't be, we also have the largest Somali and Cambodian populations in the US. 
Must be our great climate, or... it could be the social services we provide. I would be in 7th heaven if Cuenca bent over backwards for immigrants like we do here.

My comment was based on a Government listing posted at the time of the election of those required to vote - I was - as well as the requirement of the bank where I opened an account. The bank would not let me open the account until I had that card. Of course, this could be a misunderstanding, but, on a practical level, I do have to present whatever qualifying documents are required. That was really the point behind my comment - sharing my experienced challenges, even if somewhere, it says I should not be required to vote (which I was not aware of). In this case, both the Government and the Bank clearly said I had to. If this is wrong, then I hope others are spared the problems I had if they decide they do not need to vote (based in the information your provided).

In almost all situations, I have been told that having a Ecuadorian Cedula grants the possessor the exact same requirements, privileges and benefits of any other person with an Ecuadorian Cedula. This is quite different with, say, a Columbian Cedula, which varies according to your status. Everyone in Ecuador is issued the same Cedula. But, here too, I see some misunderstanding. One example: over a certain age (I think it is 60, but not sure), the Cedula holder can get a (30% ? varies?) discount on air travel, bus rides, etc. When I last visited the U.S., I got into a very confusing discussion with the travel agent regarding this benefit. She did not believe I should receive this discount because I had an American Passport. But, after some discussion, she gave me the discount. When she requested the booking, the airline had no problem and accepted it, without question.

You raise a very interesting point. It may be that these "rules," if it is appropriate to call them that, are not universally adhered to. This would not shock me given my experiences in Ecuador. Whatever the rule, it still helps (I think) to share our own individual experience since that is the "reality" one has to live with. I am sorry I did not explain this in more detail.

BTW, if it sounds like I am criticizing Ecuador, this would not be true. I love this country and its people. As an American, I do, however, marvel over the way some things are done. Culture is sometimes very difficult to understand. Yet, I think it is my responsibility to act like an Ecuadorian when I am in Ecuador. When I can get into that mindset, I never have problems here.

Zero Spanish skills include what Neil?

I was referring to the fact I can't speak the language.
Nada!

"One final tip, once you get your visa and Cedula, you will be required to vote in an election."

I just wanted to state my disagreement with that statement based on my own research and experience. Many citizens think if you have a cedula you are required to vote. If I ever need to refute that belief, I will print out a copy of that web page from the CNE website and show it to them.

ZenSPIKE wrote:

As all things Ecuadorian, I can't say it is a good choice for everyone. For me, it was. I absolutely have no patience, which of course is very detrimental in S. America. I also have a tendency to be a worrier, and have zero Spanish skills. For those reasons, this was a wise choice for me, to just throw all my stuff at the attorneys, and let them handle it.

My Spanish skills are not as advanced as yours, but at the moment I think I'm inclined to start out on my own and see how it goes. I may quickly regret that decision, but if so, that's when I send you a PM and ask the name of your lawyers.

Stand by.

ZenSPIKE wrote:

I have heard conflicting reports about the new Visa office in Cuenca. ... If they are as good as the consulate is here in Minneapolis, I would say by all means, you could accomplish it on your own. The office has been up and running for awhile now in Cuenca, so perhaps some of the kinks have been ironed out.

I plan to be in Quito, at least at first, and most of what I've read here about the Quito office is good. We'll see. I'll be working with the Chicago consulate, so again -- we'll see.

ZenSPIKE wrote:

Biggest thing of course, in either of the choices, is to have ALL your documents in order prior to arrival. ...

That's the trick, I think. I plan to ask the Chicago consulate for a list of all the documents. If I can get everything together and have them go through it before I go to Ecuador (as you seem to have done), then I hope I'm OK. If not, I'll repeat -- I get the name of your lawyer.

I was thinking of asking you why there was a consulate in MSP. Most countries it seems to be NY, Chi, LA, maybe Atlanta or Houston, and then whatever city has a big concentration of their nationals. Surprising there'd be that many Ecuadorians in MSP, but we learn new things all the time.

Thanks for the help,
Bob

Fair Enough.

See I was told that if u didn't speak the language that u would be taken advantage of being a gringo n not understanding...

I do not think that in dealing with the government you will be taken advantage of for the fact you are a Gringo.
Certainly, you will be up-charged by the street vendors, but that's the same wherever you travel, be it Greece, Mexico, or even tourist destinations in the US, like New Orleans. It's just the nature of the beast. People make more money off of visitors vs. the resident population.
It seems that the biggest issue is that many folks retire, or move to Ecuador, for the lower cost of living. Then they realize that they are not treated as the locals are. Well, it's a fact of life, and we would be better served realizing that fact, and accepting it, before we even step foot in the country.
I know it's a frustrating concept for us to accept, but as they say, " it is what it is "
Neil

I wrote to the same lawyer in Ecuador using separate names and email accounts and received conflicting answers.  Both responses said anything on my record more than 20 years old would not show up on a state police report. One response said even if past drug felonies would become known it would not effect my visa status, while the other said I would most certainly be leaving Ecuador promptly. Go figure.

Neil tried to send u this? As a private message but I got a error stating u r not accepting private messages from me...don't know if I did anything wrong since I only sent one previous message to u asking something that wasn't part of the current blog as not to get off the subject like now,,,sorry

Neil wanted to ask u this since here instead of the legalized documents blog...
So not speaking Spanish is not a problem living in Ecuador? Your able to get around the country on buses or taxis, order food in restaurants, go yo grocery stores etc...was told by someone living in salinas it wouldn't be a good idea,,,but I've travelled to Venezuela before with not a lot of problems but coming into customs when non of them had any idea the English language they just ushered me on thru when I didn't understand their question. Thanks

Jon Michael

Sorry Dude, mistake on my end with the blocking deal. I guess I just made an error in accepting a request? I can screw up a, well, a certain type of dream.
I think you can survive with out Spanish, but you'll certainly want to get some basics. Good example. Almost all restaurants have pictures of the menu items on the menu, or a reader board. But, I had an instance where the server was trying to ask me what sides I wanted, and I could tell she was getting a tad pissed with me as I didn't have a clue what she was asking.
But, to start, I think you can rely on contacts. There are banks you can go to, where they have English speaking associates. Same with most major places you'll go for services and the like. You just have to establish a support system. Like maybe a good private taxi driver that is local and speaks English. Also, there are any number of recommendations on Gringo Tree, that specify English speaking personnel. Groceries and major shops are no problem, cause most of the prices are posted in those types of business's. I get confused with larger numbers, so the debit card takes the idiot out of Gringo in that case.
And yeah, I actually went to the bus station, and ended up getting on the right bus to visit a neighboring town. Like stations here, there are signs, so you can navigate it with out knowing English.
In the end, I still want to get a decent understanding of the language.
Stay Well,
Neil
PS. I corrected my settings.

Here are two Spanish tips for when you go to the Supermaxi.

The first thing they will ask you when you it is your turn is whether you have your discount card. So, until you get one, simply say. "No tengo tarjeta de descuento".

Then, they may ask whether you want your receipt (factura) with your personal information. Simply say "Consumidor Final". This means you don´t care whether your receipt has your personal information on it. Apparently once you reach a certain age (65?) you can get a refund for what you paid in IVA taxes at the end of the year, in which you will want a receipt with your personal data on it.

Once you have a discount card, it is easy enough for them to print your receipt with your personal data on it, so you simply say "Si" to that second question, regardless of whether you need a receipt with your personal data.

Good information.
You, Sir, are a fount of knowledge.
My concern is there are so many programs and insider little tricks, I'll never keep them all in my head. It seems every aspect has it quirks, from public transportation, to airfares to banking, and even the supermarket. And, it seems a lot of these perks become available at the golden age of 65. < although I NEVER see myself going to the head of the line at a bank, etc. >
Any way, thanks for another insider piece of information.

I know what you mean. It is the spontaneity of the situation that makes communication in Spanish so difficult.

I was paying my electricty bill last week at JEP which is usually a slam dunk, but the teller unexpectedly told me something which I didn´t understand.  There was a delay in printing the receipt, so I had to stand aside while the next customer was helped. It wasn´t a big deal, but annoying to me nonetheless.

Can't you get utilities paid as a debit to your account instead of having to pay them in person?

mugtech wrote:

Can't you get utilities paid as a debit to your account instead of having to pay them in person?

I went to Bank Pichincha a couple weeks ago to inquire about that.  They promote that feature on their website, but they told me at the local branch that service is still not available here in Cuenca, or at least not for the the utilites I want to pay.

I know there are expats paying their bills electronically, but I assume they don´t bank with Bank Pichincha.

That said, the ETAP bill gives me an excuse to go to Mall del Rio, and the electric bill requires a short walk to JEP to pay. So I probably won´t bother opening another bank account.

Thanks Nards. When I become chronically unemployed (retired)I intend to walk at least 40 minutes a day for health reasons and to pay bills, so I do understand your preference for walking as opposed to having to deal with another bank. Then again crossing streets here does not seem as challenging as Cuenca.  Good luck.

I am not allowed to call myself "jubilado" (retired) according to the authorities. My status is simply "Ninguno" (None).

Bob,
Correction:
When I went to pick up my paperwork at the consulate on Friday, the agent went through them, and remarks that I need one more document. I asked what was missing, and he said, the verification letter that is to be translated and Legalized by them. He had the document, but failed to go through the process. It was actually the reason I went in the first place!!! Okay, another 40 bucks, and my paperwork spent the week end at the consulate, and I get to make yet another trip to the consulate offices today. Sure am glad it was local. Had I been required to travel to Chi Town, or another city with a consulate, it would have added a huge batch of problems for me. Probably a missed flight, and like 4 days of a room in The Windy City. Sure that would have drastically added to my bottom line.
I have an appointment at 2 o'clock this afternoon, and for some reason, I have a sneaky suspicion this won't be my last trip.
I'll post my latest experiences.
Neil

I'm glad I'll be in Chicago to do it. I guess I should budget plenty for parking or trainfare for multiple trips.

In my tentative plans for my time in the States, I have a month scheduled in Chi -- do you think that will be long enough?

Bob

Bob,
Firstly, I talked to my attorney in Ecuador, and she assured me that the agent I had here in Minneapolis didn't know the regulations, and that I did not need to get the docs that were Apostille also Legalized. I will put my money on the attorney, she is very sharp and deals with this on a daily basis.
I would think the time frame you have should be more than sufficient. Honestly, mine should have been handled as a 2 day turn around. The guy just messed up, and didn't get the all the stuff done that he should have. I didn't want to seem as if I had doubts about his ability at the time, but I did. He just seemed very rushed. Anytime I see someone filling out forms on a computer, and they are constantly back spacing, it gives me cause to think, well,.... that they are screwing up.
I would just be very clear in going over each document with the agent, and making sure you are both on the same page as to what's to be done.
Anyway, I'm through the process, and it wasn't actually too bad.
I think I'm just overly cautious in these situations, and have a tendency to worry.
Good Luck in Chi!
Neil

Hope you can relax, Neil, and just be satisfied that you did what you can do.  Try to remember that any day you accomplish anything in Ecuador is a good day; such is your new pace of living.  I'm sure in a few months you will have the same exalted classification as Nards, that you will be Neil Ninguno.

ZenSPIKE wrote:

I think I'm just overly cautious in these situations, and have a tendency to worry.

Considering how much trouble it would be to get to Ecuador and find out something wasn't done, it's probably much better to have done something that didn't need doing. Caution seems like the best approach.

The month I'm allowing for involves also the time to get my documents together -- e.g., letter from Social Security, police clearance, etc. Still enough time?

Bob

Yup, plenty of time. You can get your social security letter immediately. Just go to the SS site and download it, and you are good to go. Because it will not have an official seal on it, you have to get it notarized. ( the same letter will be sent to you from the SS admin, so just download it ) The notary will probably question why it has to be done, just explain the reason. Then, the state will Apostille it.
I can't speak for other states, but I went to the BCA here in MN., and I had the crimanl report in 15 minutes. As far as the Apostille of all the documents, the same. I went to The State Atty. Gen's office, and got all my doc's in about a half hour.
So, if you have all your docs', it should be a pretty quick and painless process.
Good Luck
Ps. I also had to have the police report notarized. Anything that does not have an official state seal on it will need to be notarized.

ZenSPIKE wrote:

The notary will probably question why it has to be done,

Yeah, I would too. Actually, if I were a notary, I'd ask what it was I was notarizing -- because they are typically notarizing a signature. The document would not have a sig, I presume, and in any case, the signer wouldn't be present.

So, what ARE they notarizing?

This is good info, by the way. I wasn't aware I could download the letter -- that will help a lot.

ZenSPIKE wrote:

I went to the BCA here in MN., and I had the crimanl report in 15 minutes. As far as the Apostille of all the documents, the same. I went to The State Atty. Gen's office, and got all my doc's in about a half hour.

Hopefully the Illinois State Police will be equally efficient. The one time I needed an apostille, it was very quick at the Illinois Secretary of State office in downtown Chi -- a short walk from the Ecuadorian Consulate.

Just to relate how goofy stuff is. The notary I went to initially questioned what I was having notarized, as you suggested. When I explained what it was for, she asked for my DL, and was satisfied with that. The 2nd time I did it, at my bank, the guy posed the same question, and said he needed a signature on the doc. I said cool, where do you want me to sign? That was it, I signed it, and he stamped it. Down the road!!!

ZenSPIKE wrote:

The 2nd time I did it, at my bank, the guy posed the same question, and said he needed a signature on the doc. I said cool, where do you want me to sign? That was it, I signed it, and he stamped it. Down the road!!!

LOL. I had thought of that. If a notary said, "I can't notarize this, because there's no sig," I figured I'd sign it.

Heck, why not? If the rules are silly, be silly right back!

Thanks for all your help. I think I may finally be out of questions.

For now at least.

Bob

I sent that last document, the social security letter, to my attorney and I got the most relieving news I've gotten since I started this. " All your documents are complete and correct " I'm good to go, with 3 weeks to burn!!!

ZenSPIKE wrote:

I sent that last document, the social security letter, to my attorney and I got the most relieving news I've gotten since I started this. " All your documents are complete and correct " I'm good to go, with 3 weeks to burn!!!

Congratulations!

Bob

PS: By the way, I did think of another question: I've heard that some (or maybe all) documents may need to be translated into Spanish. Did you have to do this?