Has anyone any views on this 'delicate' situation.

The solution is simple

1. Malta should abide by its obligations under international law (which apply whether Malta is in the EU not not - the ECHR is not an EU institution - so all the talk of Malta leaving the EU and then being allowed to pushback is a red herring)
2. Other EU countries should do more to help Malta by taking more of these migrants who land in Malta

georgeingozo wrote:

The solution is simple

1. Malta should abide by its obligations under international law (which apply whether Malta is in the EU not not - the ECHR is not an EU institution - so all the talk of Malta leaving the EU and then being allowed to pushback is a red herring)
2. Other EU countries should do more to help Malta by taking more of these migrants who land in Malta

.......and I tend to agree George, however, that 'solution' is too simplistic.  Yes Malta is bound by its obligations but the 'reality' of economic and populous overcrowding on such a small island could lead to tensions not seen in Malta for some considerable time.  The Maltese and the 'potential' asylum seekers do have a little bit of 'history'.  Further, it could be argued what about the rights of the people of Malta?

Just a (devils advocate) thought like.

"Further, it could be argued what about the rights of the people of Malta?
" - the rights of the migrants to claim asylum etc overrides the rights of the Maltese people, unless Malta withdraws from the UN and associated bodies.

"The 'reality' of economic and populous overcrowding on such a small island could lead to tensions not seen in Malta for some considerable time."

hence my point 2 :-)

georgeingozo wrote:

"The 'reality' of economic and populous overcrowding on such a small island could lead to tensions not seen in Malta for some considerable time."

hence my point 2 :-)

.....but by 'allowing' them residence in Malta negates that point as eventually overcrowding will divide the population as those in employment find that they are paying for those who are economic migrants.  I think the clue is in the word "illegal" as in illegal immigrants.

georgeingozo wrote:

"Further, it could be argued what about the rights of the people of Malta?
" - the rights of the migrants to claim asylum etc overrides the rights of the Maltese people, unless Malta withdraws from the UN and associated bodies.

Why should the rights of the Maltese population be overridden by the rights of those who chose to come to Malta illegally.

Malta could also withdraw from the ECHR........drastic I know but effective.

MikeInPoulton wrote:

Why should the rights of the Maltese population be overridden by the rights of those who chose to come to Malta illegally.

they haven't come here illegally, thats the point

MikeInPoulton wrote:

Malta could also withdraw from the ECHR........drastic I know but effective.

I wonder if membership of ECHR is a condition of being a member of the EU ?

georgeingozo wrote:

MikeInPoulton wrote:

Why should the rights of the Maltese population be overridden by the rights of those who chose to come to Malta illegally.

they haven't come here illegally, thats the point

So why has the EU stopped Malta from sending back 'the boat people' (who have come here illegally) and the Maltese government has had to cancel two repatriation aircraft.

Then there was the recent trouble in Birzebuggia with a couple of Somalis......and the racial outburst against an Arriva driver in Mgarr.

Is Malta turning into a little powder keg?

MikeInPoulton wrote:

So why has the EU stopped Malta from sending back 'the boat people' (who have come here illegally) and the Maltese government has had to cancel two repatriation aircraft.

They are not here illegally until a court refuses them asylum - until then they are not illegal - thats exactly why the EU stepped in, Malta was breaking the law in trying to repatriate them.

georgeingozo wrote:

MikeInPoulton wrote:

So why has the EU stopped Malta from sending back 'the boat people' (who have come here illegally) and the Maltese government has had to cancel two repatriation aircraft.

They are not here illegally until a court refuses them asylum - until then they are not illegal - thats exactly why the EU stepped in, Malta was breaking the law in trying to repatriate them.

You discuss well George........even when 'pressed'.

Anyway what do you think of the Ed Byrne lookalike?

I fancy him more - better hair

Just looking at the pure numbers Malta does not really have a problem anyway.

Malta has about 4,5% of the total residents as foreign nationals (EU and non-EU) with about 1% of the 4,5 % being irregular migrants (as already noted the term illegal is wrong).

The EU average of foreign nationals is 6,8 % ( highest total numbers being in Germany and the UK with 8-9 %).

Percentagewise the highest figures are in Luxembourg (44% ! of all residents being foreign) and Cyprus (20 % foreign).

As the percentage of irregular migrants being granted asylum in Malta is exceptionally high ( ~95 %) and many are then on their way out to other countries like the US I don't really see a huge problem unless the numbers are to increase dramatically.


Most of us are regular migrants with correct documentation ( many are not as they overstay their tourist 3 months and havn't registered for residency) and those irregular migrants who have been granted asylum also have their correct documentation and are also regular migrants -)))

Just my few thoughts on the topic.

Cheers
Ricky

georgeingozo wrote:

The solution is simple

1. Malta should abide by its obligations under international law (which apply whether Malta is in the EU not not - the ECHR is not an EU institution - so all the talk of Malta leaving the EU and then being allowed to pushback is a red herring)
2. Other EU countries should do more to help Malta by taking more of these migrants who land in Malta

completely agree - Malta joined up knowing the obligations under international law and take the EU money so do what you have to.

Interesting that article 16 ECHR says that EU citizens cannot be classed as " aliens", isn't that what Malta calls expats?

Terry

we are classed as A - not sure if definition of A is legally defined

georgeingozo wrote:

we are classed as A - not sure if definition of A is legally defined

have a look at this document page 9 of 10... makes it quite clear. it comes from the office of the prime minister and is an official document regarding data formatting

NB it may show as a dangerous file when downloaded but it is safe


https://www.google.com.mt/url?sa=t&rct= … A1fqztsasQ

we are ALIENS

toonarmy9752 wrote:

georgeingozo wrote:

we are classed as A - not sure if definition of A is legally defined

have a look at this document page 9 of 10... makes it quite clear. it comes from the office of the prime minister and is an official document regarding data formatting

NB it may show as a dangerous file when downloaded but it is safe


https://www.google.com.mt/url?sa=t&rct= … A1fqztsasQ

we are ALIENS

Aliens you say..................





Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha

that doc is re joining EU (just), so might have changed :-)

so P is provisional and Z is Gozo born before 1900 - that mystery cleared up

some how i very much doubt that GnG

georgeingozo wrote:

MikeInPoulton wrote:

Why should the rights of the Maltese population be overridden by the rights of those who chose to come to Malta illegally.

they haven't come here illegally, thats the point

..........but George, if they have travelled without the correct documentation, isn't that illegal?

you cant get the correct documentation until you get here!!!!!

MikeInPoulton wrote:

...but George, if they have travelled without the correct documentation, isn't that illegal?

no, not if they are claiming refugee etc status, then no docs are required

International treaties, to which Malta is a signature, is very clear - they are irregular or undocumented, not illegal immigrants. Innocent until proven guilty, which in the case of arrivals in Malta over 90% are found to be "innocent"

georgeingozo wrote:

International treaties, to which Malta is a signature, is very clear - they are irregular or undocumented, not illegal immigrants. Innocent until proven guilty, which in the case of arrivals in Malta over 90% are found to be "innocent"

The problem with international treaties is that they are not signed up to by the general public but by politicians. Try to raise an objection on the grounds that they are altering the fabric of the some of the countries that they seek asylum in and you get branded a racist. The asylum seekers in the U.K. Are in fact mainly economic migrants and have travelled through three or four EU countries to get to the UK before seeking asylum.
Smaller countries like Malta will struggle to cope with even a small percentage of immigrants, most of whom are economic migrants trying to shortcut the system, try getting into any country undocumented
And you should be sent back.

Terry( in Sicily with documents).

tearnet wrote:

try getting into any country undocumented
And you should be sent back.

would you have said that to the Jews fleeing Nazi Germany ?

tearnet wrote:

georgeingozo wrote:

International treaties, to which Malta is a signature, is very clear - they are irregular or undocumented, not illegal immigrants. Innocent until proven guilty, which in the case of arrivals in Malta over 90% are found to be "innocent"

The problem with international treaties is that they are not signed up to by the general public but by politicians. Try to raise an objection on the grounds that they are altering the fabric of the some of the countries that they seek asylum in and you get branded a racist. The asylum seekers in the U.K. Are in fact mainly economic migrants and have travelled through three or four EU countries to get to the UK before seeking asylum.
Smaller countries like Malta will struggle to cope with even a small percentage of immigrants, most of whom are economic migrants trying to shortcut the system, try getting into any country undocumented
And you should be sent back.

Terry( in Sicily with documents).

Well said Terry.........and now we have the truth.  Regardless of how anyone dresses it up they have entered the country illegally.  If a Mexican crossed the border to the USA without the right docs he too would be classed as having entered illegally (the rest is semantics)

Mike in Poulton (in readiness of getting the correct documentation.)

georgeingozo wrote:

tearnet wrote:

try getting into any country undocumented
And you should be sent back.

would you have said that to the Jews fleeing Nazi Germany ?

Rubbish analogy George......there was a war on and they were classed as refugees.

They did not enter Malta illegally, end of story. They are refugees. Unless you accept their legal status then I have nothing else to add, other than some of them have come from war zones

toonarmy9752 wrote:

you cant get the correct documentation until you get here!!!!!

What?.......like a passport and a visa or other documents enabling travel.

Let's leave the 'documentation' raised whilst in Malta - after all they have claimed asylum - but to step onto the Island they must (should) have left their departing country with the right docs - this 'irregular' nonsense is just that.

georgeingozo wrote:

They did not enter Malta illegally, end of story. They are refugees. Unless you accept their legal status then I have nothing else to add, other than some of them have come from war zones

Oh!

These people seem to address them as illegal immigrants

MikeInPoulton wrote:

georgeingozo wrote:

They did not enter Malta illegally, end of story. They are refugees. Unless you accept their legal status then I have nothing else to add, other than some of them have come from war zones

Oh!

These people seem to address them as illegal immigrants

and they are wrong to do so

I wouldn't trust any statement from the government after the PM said he supported pushback, which is illegal

georgeingozo wrote:

MikeInPoulton wrote:

georgeingozo wrote:

They did not enter Malta illegally, end of story. They are refugees. Unless you accept their legal status then I have nothing else to add, other than some of them have come from war zones

Oh!

These people seem to address them as illegal immigrants

and they are wrong to do so

Here you go George.......you really are a terrific sport.

I give up!!!!!!!!........but knew it all along


Have a good evening chap.

MikeInPoulton wrote:

toonarmy9752 wrote:

you cant get the correct documentation until you get here!!!!!

What?.......like a passport and a visa or other documents enabling travel.

Let's leave the 'documentation' raised whilst in Malta - after all they have claimed asylum - but to step onto the Island they must (should) have left their departing country with the right docs - this 'irregular' nonsense is just that.

well as these boat people have probably paid some low life for their passage and most a fleeing for their lives from terror, torture etc etc etc - id think the last thing on their minds is correct paperwork

toonarmy9752 wrote:

MikeInPoulton wrote:

toonarmy9752 wrote:

you cant get the correct documentation until you get here!!!!!

What?.......like a passport and a visa or other documents enabling travel.

Let's leave the 'documentation' raised whilst in Malta - after all they have claimed asylum - but to step onto the Island they must (should) have left their departing country with the right docs - this 'irregular' nonsense is just that.

well as these boat people have probably paid some low life for their passage and most a fleeing for their lives from terror, torture etc etc etc - id think the last thing on their minds is correct paperwork

toon.......just read the "I give up" link above your post.

Cheers chap

Ireland has taken them in.
Home Affairs Minster Manuel Mallia thanked the Irish Embassador Jim Hennessey.
Times Of Malta on page 9
Wednesdays Edition.

MikeInPoulton wrote:

toonarmy9752 wrote:

MikeInPoulton wrote:

What?.......like a passport and a visa or other documents enabling travel.

Let's leave the 'documentation' raised whilst in Malta - after all they have claimed asylum - but to step onto the Island they must (should) have left their departing country with the right docs - this 'irregular' nonsense is just that.

well as these boat people have probably paid some low life for their passage and most a fleeing for their lives from terror, torture etc etc etc - id think the last thing on their minds is correct paperwork

toon.......just read the "I give up" link above your post.

Cheers chap

yes Mike i had read it in synch with real time - just wanted my twopennyworth LOL

toonarmy9752 wrote:

yes Mike i had read it in synch with real time - just wanted my twopennyworth LOL

I'm glad you took it in the spirit in which I ventured with on this topic toon.  I said at the top of the post I may speak as 'devils advocate', however I became intrigued as to how people on here viewed the situation.

I have spoken to my 'family' (in Qrendi, Zurrieq and Mellieha) and it appears that the indigenous people of Malta (and this is not a formal or professional poll) appear to differ from the few who have reported here (I was rather hoping for a wider spread of responses so as to gauge a bigger overall opinion).  This now begs the question are we (the expatriates) so self-flagellistic as to over police opinion of the those who's families have lived here for thousands of years.

I understand the difference between right (legality and obligation) and opinion..........but for such a tiny island shouldn't the voice of the people it affects be heard.

Thanks for your twopen'orth......and I knew I could trust you to see the discussion for what it was.

Cheers everyone for your input (hope no one took offence) it was a well reasoned and researched 'chat'.

Mike

Oh!........it's blinkin 31 degrees here - I'm wondering if the move to Malta for the weather is actually worth it now.