In a relationship with different languages

Good topic, my gf only speaks a little english and my vietnamese is also very small.  We use google a lot for planning activities. She is a great partner to have around. My belief is that communication causes problems in relationships. Our failure to communicates proably keeps our friendship going.  I am sure that once we understand each other the friendship will end...

Well, speaking different languages can stop a couple getting into fights actually (imagine the girl can only speak Vietnamese and the guy can only speak English, I don't think they even want to fight).

My man is Danish, lives in Switzerland and his English is not very good. We communicate in German. I still remember a while back, when my German was not so good, could only speak and understand standard German when my man speaks Swiss-German. So it happened quite often that we couldn't understand each other and when we had conflicts, I felt even worse because I couldn't express my mind fully and correctly. And it seemed that my man wasn't even trying to listen to me with my broken German. Finally, one day, we fought again and I became furious. I was so angry, he was also angry and I decided to let it all go by telling him how I felt the whole time about my broken German, about him not being patient enough to listen to what I tried to say and told him I wanted "a small break" from the whole relationship thing. I asked him to leave me some space, not try to reach me on phone and to re-think what I said to him. I kept silence for days despite him trying to call me and we finally worked things out with text messages, that we're gonna be patient with each other, with my broken German and with him talking too much sometimes.

So in conclusion, relationships based on different backgrounds, cultures and languages can be extremely stressful. If you can't take it, then don't start it. If you think you can, patience and compromise are what you need, and some other small things as well.

Em Oi!
So no Sunday outing today?
Anyway good topic!
Well, there are many reasons behind that.
Better you should find out one guy for a 'test' to understand the real 'secrets' behind it!

Myself I think this is the hardest part of my relationship.Made worse by the fact that on the surface it seems like she speaks and understands English ver very well. For me It seems many many time when we have a discussion or she is rushed in her response she truncates her replies so much that is seems like she is either made, rude, or inconsiderate. For example she may feel tired and wanting to reat when I ask her a question. She might say "Shut up I don't want to talk to you". When I tell her how her reply hurt me she says she was just rush to reply and did not want to give the long version" I'm very tired at the moment can we discuss this after I rest a bit". I have seen in many dual language speakers the great difficulty they have to first hear the message in their non-native tongue, then they take that message into their database and convert the thought into thir mother tongue. Now they are just tired of it all when the reply comes out so they give you the short verasion
"shut up". Forme it is the MOST difficult part of the relationship.

Thank you all for your sharing so far and hope to hear more from you all

@ Ngan Khanh: your experience convinces me that we can enter into a relationship without speaking "the same" language. However, can you please share if you and your man have to improve the "common language" in order for better communication?

charmavietnam wrote:

Em Oi!
So no Sunday outing today?
Anyway good topic!
Well, there are many reasons behind that.
Better you should find out one guy for a 'test' to understand the real 'secrets' behind it!

Anh/chi oi, thanks for asking just got home after amazing time from Vung Tau for dog racing
Unfortunately, I prefer something "real" than just a test
Why dont you share your opinion/experience?!? So curious with your "real case"

My mother wanted me to learn French. A few months in a French speaking school gave me a mild familiarity with it, but I flunked French two years in a row in High School before moving to Northern Maine. Up there, if you wanted to go out with pretty Acadien girls, you had to 1) be Catholic, and 2) speak French. My French and Church attendance improved dramatically, to the point that I had marriage plans with a local girl and was thinking of joining the Canadien Army's 22nd Regiment.

I learned Spanish while stationed in Texas and married a Puertorrican girl. My Spanish became good enough to sign up in a Spanish speaking university and join the Puerto Rico national guard. My first morning in history class was a shock. I went home and told the ex-wife that we had to speak Spanish in the home. Five years later I took a bar (law) exam in Spanish. The marriage eventually broke up, largely due to issues over child raising. I believed in a disciplined child, she 'wanted' discipline, but no measures to enforce it. He was living with her until in his late 30s before he finally got his act together.

I had learned some Vietnamese in Vietnam, but 'trung doi','dai doi', 'obut', 'bo binh', 'pho binh' were words that did NOT do me much good when I met my 'em oi'. (She did understand and liked 'nhay du'). Her first husband (now deceased) had been a military policeman at Long Binh, where they met. He loved her enough to go back to Vietnam as a civilian to find her, and reenlist to get her into the U.S. But he expected to parcel out little bits of money for the household and otherwise control everything. The money he earned from the Army was his, and her salary for working in a mess hall (restaurant) as a civilian was his. He viewed her as his little Asian kewpie doll, and that killed their marriage.

We've been together thirty years, but she has not been much help in teaching me Vietnamese as she doesn't know how to teach, and is very strong headed. Now, after so many years, she is making the effort to listen to what I want clarified, and no longer becomes frustrated when my tones take more than a little work.

My view: Language is a minefield, but is is not the biggest minefield that a 'diversity' (I hate that term) marriage will face. The biggest minefield will always be cultural issues. Language issues are merely hurdles along the cultural track, and far easier to resolve.

I'm one of those Viet Kieu's in your example that can barely speak Vietnamese and my fiance can't speak a single word of English. I think it's great. Has forced me to improve my Vietnamese because you know women are strong headed and men can change their ways.

Communicating in Vietnamese is not that complicated. Just stick to the basic 100 vocabulary of daily used words. Vietnamese like to repeat themselves over and over as if they didn't say it the first time.

Like I said to my fiance last night. Don't hold back she needs to communicate everything to me whether good or bad because that's what keeps a relationship healthy.

Lirelou: many thanks for sharing your own story... So, you're a lawyer?!?!?!?

khanh44 wrote:

Like I said to my fiance last night. Don't hold back she needs to communicate everything to me whether good or bad because that's what keeps a relationship healthy.

Khanh44: thanks for sharing. This is the interesting point I want to hear more. I trust when you're into someone, you want to share everything with her/him. How can you do that if you cannot find a language to communicate? I feel like in the end of the day, both people who are in relationship must find a way to communicate? Meaning, in the end of the day they must speak 1 language? Is it? I had once on the way getting to know an UK guy, though I am confident with my English, but 1 I made a joke, he was a bit angry cause he though I was made fun of him (as he knows I'm kind of person like making fun of people/things), another time when I told him how terrible I feel about Thailand trip with "those style of western guys with ladyboys" - he though I was kidding since he believes I'm a person who's open minded and have been familiar with western culture/people... Like I said, I'm curious on how to communicate if you can't talk to each other?!? Is that love can help everything?!? Is there anytime you feel tired because you cannot find a way to talk like Khanh said above?

khanh44 wrote:

I'm one of those Viet Kieu's in your example that can barely speak Vietnamese and my fiance can't speak a single word of English. I think it's great. Has forced me to improve my Vietnamese because you know women are strong headed and men can change their ways.

Same when I first met my wife. But us (you and me) being Vietnamese, at least we understood the basics when it comes to communicating. Its a great way for me to improve my Vietnamese. You will notice your Viet will be a lot better further down the road.
Where I am at the moment, I met a Vietnamese lady who had just arrived to live with her Aussie husband. I have no idea how they would communicate but seems very happy every time I see them out shopping. Every time I see him, its 'xung chao, khoe hong'.
I also met another family, wife Viet, husband Aussie. But this lady has been here 10+ years so here English is good.

If you enjoy the company of the other, then who needs to speak the same language.

There are millions of couples who can speak the same language perfectly yetstill cannot communicate. In their cases, the hurdles aren't on the track, but in the minds of the runners.

lirelou wrote:

There are millions of couples who can speak the same language perfectly yetstill cannot communicate. In their cases, the hurdles aren't on the track, but in the minds of the runners.

Cant agree more...

I think. love is special, sometime just see our lover smile or look at their eyes, we feel realy happy. But love need sharing also, if we can comunicate together, how we can share?

If when begining, cant speak good, we can learn, and help our partner improve everyday. With love, sure we can do that.

Yuli

MIA2013 wrote:

If you enjoy the company of the other, then who needs to speak the same language.

I agree, my relationship works because we do not talk about anything meaningful because of the language barrier.  There are no interruptions when I am watching TV, none of that dreadful saying "we need to talk" or "you never listen to me" comments when I am tired. We never need to watch our tongues for fear of hurting the others feelings.  We can say exactly how we feel and it is ok because they do not understand.

always good to have patience Yuli

There is a saying ' a picture paints a thousand words'
If you are happy with the 'picture' then no need to speak.

Even if you cannot speak the same language as your partner and are chastising them in your own tongue then they tone of your voice will strike a chord and at least they will know you are upset.

I guess I am lucky in that I can speak enough Lao language to have a conversation with my Lao wife.

Ngan Khanh wrote:

Well, speaking different languages can stop a couple getting into fights actually (imagine the girl can only speak Vietnamese and the guy can only speak English, I don't think they even want to fight).

I wish that was true, maybe the problem was that 3 years ago the wife was using Google Dich, it makes a real hash of of VN/Eng translations.
   Sometimes confusion in translations, ( although sometimes amusing ), can lead to big problems and misunderstandings.

I've had three partners for whom English was not the home language though all speak it.  I have a friend here whose GF is only beginning to learn English and he is at a similar stage in Vietnamese.  They use google a lot, but some of the translations I've seen there are pretty horrifying, especially with pronouns .. how can it know if mình means "I" or "you?"

But I think culture is far and away the greater problem, and the biggest one of all is family.  We westerners don't have the intense imposition of family obligation that Vietnamese do.  And if one has a Vietnamese partner from a poor family the tension can be a real strain.

ChrisFox wrote:

But I think culture is far and away the greater problem, and the biggest one of all is family.  We westerners don't have the intense imposition of family obligation that Vietnamese do.  And if one has a Vietnamese partner from a poor family the tension can be a real strain.

Not only VN, Filipino's are as bad.  Even with Greeks,etc,  you marry the family.

I think we need some basic for everyday conversation. Love after all is much more abt the feeling, set aside the difference and embrace the relationship... When we love that person, we make effort to make this relationship works, means make effort to learn their language, be considerate in the choice of words...to name a few.

Talk too much should be a "BIG" problem - haiz

.............

One thing about living here that has amazed me again and again is how few westerners even try to learn any Vietnamese.  Sure I expected a few, but I've probably run into more who don't try at all than I have people like me who struggle with it.  Yeah it can be discouraging and some things I wonder if I will ever get right, but I học tập chuyện cần and try to get in a little practice each day. 

"My wife translates for me," It's too hard," "I have a learning disability" ... bah.  I couldn't stand being helpless.

One thing about living here that has amazed me again and again is how few westerners even try to learn any Vietnamese.

My impression of most expatriates everywhere, not just Vietnam. But then the expatriate community is very complex. In European countries, you tend to meet a lot of local language speakers among the expat community, but not a majority. Most can order drinks and food, pay the bill, and get around fairly well with guidebooks and lonely planet. Things get dicey in countries where the language is radically different. Vietnamese has the advantage of having adopted a latin based alphabet which helps with learning it. Percentage wise, I would bet that far more expats in Vietnam have a basic language ability than expats in Thailand, Cambodia or Laos where a Sanskrit based alphabet is the medium.

Perhaps some of those here who've lived in those countries have some opinions they can share.

Every language has its challenges, I think the pronunciation in Vietnamese is a vastly steeper learning curve than a new alphabet; I spoke Russian for a while, and with its strange characters, it's six declensions, complicated conjugations, the sibilants, is probably harder than a one-time dive into mastering some different characters.  Vietnamese is easy to read and write, not just because of the Latin basis of its character set but the simplicity of its grammar.  SVO, no cases, declension, nor conjugation, none of that. 

On the other hand, where I could understand any spoken word that I knew in any language I've studied before, comprehension in Vietnamese remains astonishingly elusive and I *very* often discover that the machine-gun fast string of sound that I just didn't understand a word of was actually make of words almost all of which I can read, or speak albeit a lot slower. 

"xin nói lại tù tù" doesn't help.  They may  nói lại but they don't do it tù tù at all.

I know a guy who has lived in Thailand for eleven years and doesn't speak a word of it.  I'm no linguist, I tend to plateau quickly in languages, but if I lived there I would have forced myself to learn those weird letters, I mean, it *is* phonetic, is it not?  I'd speak survival-level Thai.

I have no illusions that I will ever pass as a native speaker to someone with his eyes closed, but dammit I live here and I want to be able to talk to people.  I'm the guest.

ChrisFox wrote:

I'm the guest.

That hits the nail on the head for me. Many westerners believe that all cultures should conform to the western style of living and "civility" as one put it. Who are we to dictate the norms of society. Heck the good old US of A is not really that good a model for "normal" social interactions and behaviors to be sure. And with my experiences with European and other Asian cultures we all have our good and bad points.

I was just having a chat with a new VN friend and she was wondering how she could change to be more accepted as a westerner. I was taken aback by this assertion that western culture is somehow better than eastern culture. I tried to impress on my young new friend that differences of culture should be embraced and that neither culture is better than another, just different. Enjoy the differences and learn to integrate into a host country. As the wise Mr. Fox says we are guests in a host country and enough of this ethnocentric BS.

An Ugly Expat Tale.

On my last trip to Vn an American I knew from the States invited me to join him in his favorite hangout on Pasteur street. Our wives talked to each other on the phone so I had the address. On the appointed day I went to his club and he wasn't there. I didn't have a cell phone and figured he'd show sooner or later, so I waited.

While waiting I struck up a conversation with a English gentlemen wearing a coat and tie. He had noticed my slaughtering of Nguyen Du's language with the bartender and decided to chat me up. His company had sent him to Vietnam and being more or less in the same age group, we had a pleasant conversation.

In any event, my compatriot arrived just as this gentleman was leaving. His first reaction was: Where do you know that guy from? I told him i'd just met him. He then proceeded to deliver his judgment on this 'stuck-up Brit'. Meanwhile the bartender kidded him about the fact that I spoke enough Vietnamese to order a drink. My compatriot has been married to a Vietnamese for over 40 years. They have lived six months a year in Saigon for over a decade. Yet he doesn't speak more than three words of Vietnamese.

The next day I went back to the pub on my own, and the English gentleman was seated at a table off to the side, surrounded by Vietnamese co-workers, conducting what was apparently an informal business get-together, in Vietnamese. Very good Vietnamese at that. I was quite impressed with his pronunciation.

My next thought was: "That's why so-and-so doesn't like him. He's bothered to learn the language."

Sadly, probably an accurate assessment. Also, Nguyen Du is the Vietnamese equivalent of Shakespeare in English, the author of the national poem (saga really) Truyen Kieu. I've only read it in translation. Aibiet: what is the equivalent of "As Shakespeare would say..." in Vietnamese?

lirelou wrote:

While waiting I struck up a conversation with a English gentlemen wearing a coat and tie. He had noticed my slaughtering of Nguyen Du's language with the bartender and decided to chat me up. His company had sent him to Vietnam...My compatriot has been married to a Vietnamese for over 40 years. They have lived six months a year in Saigon for over a decade. Yet he doesn't speak more than three words of Vietnamese.

The next day I went back to the pub on my own, and the English gentleman was seated at a table off to the side, surrounded by Vietnamese co-workers, conducting what was apparently an informal business get-together, in Vietnamese. Very good Vietnamese at that. I was quite impressed with his pronunciation.

Yeah being married to a Vietnamese for such a long time, spending so much time in Saigon and not learning the language is pretty crazy...BTW how long had the British guy whom you spoke with been living in Vietnam? And did he tell you where/how he learned to speak Vietnamese so well?

BTW how long had the British guy whom you spoke with been living in Vietnam? And did he tell you where/how he learned to speak Vietnamese so well?]

Nam, I know the first question came up that first night, before I knew he spoke Vietnamese, and I don't remember how long he said he'd been there. He didn't say then that he spoke Vietnamese, but I believe he said that his company had sent him to school for the language. I assumed school was for a couple of months for a few hours a day a la Berlitz. Our entire conversation was in English and he spoke English with the bartender. My impression was that he'd  been there two or three years. As for the second night, I left while he was still tied up with his group, and didn't have the chance to compliment him on his fluency or ask how long he'd studied or been speaking Vietnamese. 

Perhaps in a real estate company linked to Jardine Matheson or Stanley Ho? (Pure speculation on my part, but they should have one or two Englishmen and Americans quite fluent in the language.)

I met one guy who'd been here 16 years, spoke not one word.  Not even cảm ơn.  Some crap about a learning disability.

Im from Philippines and my gf is vietnamese. We communicate by english language. Im lucky that she can speak english. When we argue she will speak in vietnamese and I will speak in my own language, then we will stop and just laugh LOL! Haha. Enjoy life! )

I have a French friend who has been residing in VN for about 11 yrs, everyone comments on how good his VN is, but he has great difficulty conversing with many VN's, ( to the extent he avoids some neighbours ), he won't talk to a VN on the phone, and the really strange thing is, that he only speaks his not so good English to his VN wife, never VN to her???????
   Unfortunately many VNs can be very rude, and won't even attempt to understand the Foreigner trying to speak VN, ( where I practically turn over backwards making an effort to understand their 1980/90's VN school English, even many VN English teachers can be very hard to understand ). 
   I know heaps of VN words, but shy away from using them, knowing if the VN pronunciation isn't exact, they make a big joke out of it.

That's been my experience too.  It would be one thing if their own pronunciation was more homogenous but it's anything but.  Given the vast variation between people born mere kilomeers apart, why should my tiny variance be incomprehensible? 

It's not like the well-known chauvanism of the French, they genuinely don't understand.  Everyone tells me my tones are pretty good, but my hearing isn't, and there are tiny vagaries like the difference between t- and th- that I simply can't hear. 

BTW don't read too much into being laughed at.  I've brought this up many times because I'm really sensitive about it and I am assured most convincingly and earnestly that they are not laughing at me.  When my cat was missing and I asked a man if he'd seen her, he thought it was the funniest thing he'd ever heard (I wanted to hit him SO bad).  The laughter you get in response to speaking Vietnamese is probably not mockery but when they repeat my exact words and laugh, I have a eally hard time convincing myself.

ChrisFox wrote:

That's been my experience too.  It would be one thing if their own pronunciation was more homogenous but it's anything but.  Given the vast variation between people born mere kilomeers apart, why should my tiny variance be incomprehensible? 

It's not like the well-known chauvanism of the French, they genuinely don't understand.  Everyone tells me my tones are pretty good, but my hearing isn't, and there are tiny vagaries like the difference between t- and th- that I simply can't hear. 

BTW don't read too much into being laughed at.  I've brought this up many times because I'm really sensitive about it and I am assured most convincingly and earnestly that they are not laughing at me.  When my cat was missing and I asked a man if he'd seen her, he thought it was the funniest thing he'd ever heard (I wanted to hit him SO bad).  The laughter you get in response to speaking Vietnamese is probably not mockery but when they repeat my exact words and laugh, I have a eally hard time convincing myself.

The French have it easy, they don't have ' th ' in their vocab, ( I didn't know this, and I had 2 years of French lessons at High School, hated every minute ),

Many Vn's laugh when they make mistakes, must be nerves or something, I know what you mean by wanting to hit one, a truck kept reversing back into my driveway while I was shouting out, WOAH, WOAH, even though he could see me waving in the rear vision mirror , the idiot still kept coming , until he demolished my big gatepost, he kept laughing , of course this makes it a lot worse.

bluenz wrote:

... a truck kept reversing back into my driveway while I was shouting out, WOAH, WOAH, even though he could see me waving in the rear vision mirror , the idiot still kept coming , until he demolished my big gatepost, he kept laughing , of course this makes it a lot worse.

I'd probably have gotten myself evicted from the country.  Not for the breakage, but for the cheerfulness.  Sounds like you handled it better than I would've.

ChrisFox wrote:

bluenz wrote:

... a truck kept reversing back into my driveway while I was shouting out, WOAH, WOAH, even though he could see me waving in the rear vision mirror , the idiot still kept coming , until he demolished my big gatepost, he kept laughing , of course this makes it a lot worse.

I'd probably have gotten myself evicted from the country.  Not for the breakage, but for the cheerfulness.  Sounds like you handled it better than I would've.

No that almost came later, when I had a stick/fist fight with 2 VN's, ( after they childishly threw rocks on my roof, because I was too busy to drink with them ), found out later that the loud mouthed, fat one. was an off duty cop from Sai gon

bluenz wrote:

I have a French friend who has been residing in VN for about 11 yrs, everyone comments on how good his VN is, but he has great difficulty conversing with many VN's, ( to the extent he avoids some neighbours ), he won't talk to a VN on the phone, and the really strange thing is, that he only speaks his not so good English to his VN wife, never VN to her???????
...

1) He's a foreigner and thus the expectation is that he doesn't know a word of Vietnamese.  So anything that comes out of his mouth is SO COOL!

2) Depending on the status level of a person, the Vietnamese are eager to praise even if they don't mean it.  Even if they don't like something they will say the opposite.  Rich foreigners are on the level of rich nobles.  It's what we know in the West as "ass kissing".  The system works very well.   

You should try inviting some Vietnamese to a BBQ and cook something super crappy.  "Hey how's that raw cooked beefsteak?"  "Oh it's delicious".  You won't see a Vietnamese person jump and say "WTF you didn't cook this shit at all!" (That would be an American).  They'll sit there eating a raw piece of meat just so they don't embarrass the host; probably also thinking that's how Westerners eat beefsteak.

ChrisFox wrote:

That's been my experience too.  It would be one thing if their own pronunciation was more homogenous but it's anything but.  Given the vast variation between people born mere kilomeers apart, why should my tiny variance be incomprehensible? 

It's not like the well-known chauvanism of the French, they genuinely don't understand.  Everyone tells me my tones are pretty good, but my hearing isn't, and there are tiny vagaries like the difference between t- and th- that I simply can't hear. 

BTW don't read too much into being laughed at.  I've brought this up many times because I'm really sensitive about it and I am assured most convincingly and earnestly that they are not laughing at me.  When my cat was missing and I asked a man if he'd seen her, he thought it was the funniest thing he'd ever heard (I wanted to hit him SO bad).  The laughter you get in response to speaking Vietnamese is probably not mockery but when they repeat my exact words and laugh, I have a eally hard time convincing myself.

When I ask my students to speak English, they are scared of being laughed at when they pronounce a word wrong.  There is a tendency to think that you can't do anything unless you can do it PERFECTLY.  You can't get a job unless you have a perfect 10 on your score.  You won't succeed in life if you don't graduate from college.  When a kid falls on a bicycle, his friends will laugh at him.  So I think in your case, the guy's laughing at you and making fun at you because you mispronounced the Vietnamese language, imperfectly.  For an instant, he can feel superior to a foreigner.

I personally am used to being laughed at since I take it as instant feedback to improve.

Tran Hung Dao wrote:

When I ask my students to speak English, they are scared of being laughed at when they pronounce a word wrong.  There is a tendency to think that you can't do anything unless you can do it PERFECTLY.  You can't get a job unless you have a perfect 10 on your score.  You won't succeed in life if you don't graduate from college.  When a kid falls on a bicycle, his friends will laugh at him.  So I think in your case, the guy's laughing at you and making fun at you because you mispronounced the Vietnamese language, imperfectly.  For an instant, he can feel superior to a foreigner.

I personally am used to being laughed at since I take it as instant feedback to improve.

Pity most of them don't have the same approach to time keeping, work ethic's, and doing a 1/2 decent job of something, but this maybe a Rural thing?