It's frustrating applying for a teaching job if you're Asian looking

Shelf-Agent wrote:

Just to share some thoughts.

I don't think most of Vietnamese schools and Vietnamese parents discriminate Asian-looking English teachers. Like mojoyote has pointed out, if you come to meet the person-in-charge of recruitment face to face, you have better chances if you speak English as your native languages even if you are of Asian descent. Being a parent who has a child studying in an international school and pay a heavy tuition fee (between USD 15K to 20K every year), I surely don't want my son to learn to speak "Singlish" or English with Filipinos accent (no offence) from his school teachers.

Regarding the hierarchy of English teachers in Vietnam which charmavietnam has shared, in my understanding, there is a "historic" reason behind it. After the Vietnam wars, many Vietnamese migrated to USA, Australia and Canada (these countries accepted Vietnamese migrant whilst UK did not). Consequently, many Vietnamese families here have relative living in those countries and want to send their children there for studying and living. All parents who send their children to international school in Vietnam have made the choice to give their children overseas education after school (these children cannot go back to Vietnam education system once they join international school). I suppose it's just natural for parents and then schools to want to have their children speaking English like American, or Australian, or Canadian (so that their children hopefully will suffer less discrimination when they study overseas). Teachers from UK therefore can only blame their government for not being very welcome in Vietnam .

Very interesting thoughts i like ur ideas alot

Could it be that they students (and their parents) want a native-speaker? It's quite difficult for native Vietnamese to pronounce some of the sounds in English (e.g. "people" is usually pronounced "beeble"; it took quite a while and much coaching for my friend to say "crab" so that it sounded anything like the American pronunciation) and if someone wants to speak any language as close to a native-speaker as possible, it's going to have to be learned from a native-speaker.

Most of the native Vietnamese I met in my travels throughout the country who spoke English learned from a fellow Vietnamese--and there is a marked difference between their speech and that of those who learned from a native English (or American) speaker. When I finally move to VN in December, I will take Vietnamese lessons from a native-speaker for just that reason.

I cannot speak to the preference for Americans over Canadians or Aussies or Brits other than guessing that the American pronunciations are more easily understood worldwide--and that we don't call a cookie a biscuit

Don't give up. Be proud of your heritage.  Sooner or later a school will come calling.  In the meantime work your connections and keep applying.

Saigon Gear wrote:

Don't give up. Be proud of your heritage.  Sooner or later a school will come calling.  In the meantime work your connections and keep applying.

Thanks buddy, I totally agree with you there. I've found a job with an English centre already

You have to remember a lot of these schools are commercial operations and, as such, have to keep their clients happy.

The TP HCM recently hired several Filipino nationals to teach English - but since there are no real 'clients' to complain, a whole bunch of VN school children are learning English with a Tagalog accent. Would you want to learn Japanese from an Irishman?

There are few legal restraints on hiring people, i.e. promoting discrimination.  A BMT-based company I have an interest in only hires single parent females - only three men, and we are the partners.

Even the VN government practices discrimination. If a VNese citizen is married to a Foreigner, they are barred from certain jobs. If a single VNese employee wishes to marry a Foreigner, the government can, for certain positions, refuse to issue a marriage certificate.

Foreign-owned or JV companies are the ones who usually observe the 'niceties' of Western employment.

VN isn't alone, it's quite common out here in Indochina and the Far East.

Discrimination is exercised by the VN government in accommodation, too. The Cong An has to approve all properties rented to/used by Foreigners - and they can evict Foreigners from unapproved premises.

How I wish all these discriminating practices can be minimized so that the rate of growth economically and socially can pick up to elevate the country to a decent level in international standing. Basically , an overhaul in mentality and mindset is badly needed so as to achieve the level of success experienced by other South East Asian countries.

Tom Lee wrote:

How I wish all these discriminating practices can be minimized so that the rate of growth economically and socially can pick up to elevate the country to a decent level in international standing. Basically , an overhaul in mentality and mindset is badly needed so as to achieve the level of success experienced by other South East Asian countries.

For example? Which specific changes would help do that?

The legal things might change in the short term, but social changes come much more slowly; almost generational.

Do you consider wanting native-speakers as teachers discrimination even though non-native speakers will teach imperfect pronunciation that will hinder the students internationally? Paraphrasing an earlier post, would you want to learn Japanese from an Irish or American or Vietnamese teacher?

Learning English consists of the 4 components writing, reading and listening are just as important as speaking. Can we say that only native speakers can provide good pronunciation? Or are the best teacher of all the components? And Vietnamese have to learn only from native speaker? You mean non native speakers cannot be found in this world who can have good pronunciation? Or who can teach other components as well?

What the Vietnamese want is to speak like you guys .... adopting your accent which is "artificial" . I have always discourage them from doing so. They should just learn to improve pronunciation but no need to switch their accent. Only through a great deal of "immersion" can one learn the native speakers' accent.....i.e to live abroad in an English speaking country for a long time. That process is natural.

I wouldn't want to learn Japanese from Irishman or the americans unless the teachers can speak fluent Japanese. I learn Mandarin from my country folks not from the chinese from mainland. Non native speakers can speak fluent English too though the numbers are not as high as native speakers, I agree. I'm a English speaker myself and it's my first language so there's no reason why I can't teach English. Yes, one also needs to have qualification in teaching English whether you are native or non-native speaker. Being a native speaker does not necc qualify one to be an English teacher. A good qualification and experience is important. However, having said these, there are too many schools in Vietnam that are employing native speakers(back-packer type) just because they are whites and speak English. It's a step backward when they are trying to promote the use of English here.

I have attached some articles here which might be enlightening check it out at :-(just google them)

March 2006- Center for English as a Second Language (Position Statement)
When a Teacher is a non native speaker- by Peter Medgyes

I do understand why schools prefer native speakers partly because of demands from parents so we are talking about commercial reasons here. Getting to change parental thinking can be tough so that's the real challenge. It might take a long time or generational just like social changes can be difficult here given the fact that the country is steeped in its culture and the apparent lack of international perspective since "doi moi" was implemented years ago. Well, we gotta have patience and the future might still be bright so for those non native job seekers please never give up and start believing in yourself provided you have done the homework(getting yourself trained and qualified of course)

Glad to share my opinion on the blog though not all might concur but that's alright. That's life .......

Cheers

obviously vietnamese prefer native english speaker

That is well thought out and presented, Tom. I'd forgotten about some of this... thank you!  Although I've taught adults for over 20 years, I am currently working on my TESOL. There is a LOT more to it than pronunciation and grammar!

Hey John, we should meet over a beer or something and many stuff on English and education in general can be discussed:-)

Totally agree with what you mentioned here. Most Asian countries preferred native speakers. But the question here is not about preference. It is the assumption that only native speakers can teach English and non native speakers don't make good English teachers. This is a flawed statement. The subject posted here refers to discrimination based on looks(Asian) not competencies or skills. This forum was created by this guy who has been discriminated becoz of his Asian look. He has been living in Australia for many years and might have acquired the fluent accent but yet not given the job due to his look. I have some American teacher friends who are "Viet Khieus"(spelling?) speak like an american but complain of the limited teaching opportunity back home here in Vietnam. And yes...they have the English teaching qualification all that you can ask for in a teacher but somehow passed over for a white native speaker. I have also heard from some school advertisement for hiring asking for white native speakers...no qualification never mind, only need to speak fluent English! It's a bit strange to hear this but like I've said earlier, this country need a major change in people's mindset and I believe it can be done but we just have to be patience. The future generation here will probably spearhead the change. For those who aspire to teach English and who are non native speakers, do not despair for there are still many students out there who appreciate your skills and knowledge. Let your ability shines through and people will know.

When caucasians no longer have to pay twice the price for anything without a pricetag in a market, I'll start feel bad that asians get less preference as TEFL teachers.

What if you are asian but you have very white skin ? X)

"It's not what you like, it's the consumer".
- Joe Dirt

Hi tom! How are you doing?  I just happen to read this blog and im so surprised to read yours, i really liked what you wrote, its sounds very encouraging... as for me, im still working in two schools, one in pre school and the other is  still in thu duc... how about you, hope youre not mad at me,...

Shelf-Agent wrote:

Just to share some thoughts.

I don't think most of Vietnamese schools and Vietnamese parents discriminate Asian-looking English teachers. Like mojoyote has pointed out, if you come to meet the person-in-charge of recruitment face to face, you have better chances if you speak English as your native languages even if you are of Asian descent. Being a parent who has a child studying in an international school and pay a heavy tuition fee (between USD 15K to 20K every year), I surely don't want my son to learn to speak "Singlish" or English with Filipinos accent (no offence) from his school teachers.

Regarding the hierarchy of English teachers in Vietnam which charmavietnam has shared, in my understanding, there is a "historic" reason behind it. After the Vietnam wars, many Vietnamese migrated to USA, Australia and Canada (these countries accepted Vietnamese migrant whilst UK did not). Consequently, many Vietnamese families here have relative living in those countries and want to send their children there for studying and living. All parents who send their children to international school in Vietnam have made the choice to give their children overseas education after school (these children cannot go back to Vietnam education system once they join international school). I suppose it's just natural for parents and then schools to want to have their children speaking English like American, or Australian, or Canadian (so that their children hopefully will suffer less discrimination when they study overseas). Teachers from UK therefore can only blame their government for not being very welcome in Vietnam .

I surely don't want my son to learn to speak "Singlish" or English with Filipinos accent (no offence) from his school teachers.
  Haha , that's what you get when they are also taught by Americans with strong US accents.

In my little city many of the parents of students are so naive they must think Filipino's are NES, or why else would they pay the same money as if they did have a NES , (  the same school has NES ).  After correcting the students of a Filipino " teacher ', the poor innocent kids told me, " but that's the way Ms *** says it it ", I can still see the shock on their faces when I informed them, " Mr Chris, English Number 1 ,  Ms *** is a Filipino, Tagalog , Number 1 ", ( but not always, can be No 2 ), " English Number 2 " , ( but not always, can be No 3 ).
  I notice one new school refers to her teachers as " Foreigners " only. ( I have my suspicions re the " American " ).

But I think learning the said language all the depends on how good the teacher is on conveying the lesson and the willingness of the students to learn the lesson. The students will learn how to speak English regardless if they have a native teacher or not as long as they have passion and determination to learn it. There are a lot of countries whose children learned English not because they have a native teacher but because the teacher is dedicated to teach his/ her students and the students are determined to learn. It is always a two way process. Just my 2 cents tho..

What do you mean by "Asian looking?" Are you Asian or not? And why would you tell someone over the phone prior to an interview that you are "Asian looking?" I honestly think you did not get the interview because of your comment to them.

It's true to a certain extent that schools tend to favor teachers based on their skin color and ethnicity, but if you actually went for an interview and showed that you are fluent in the English language, they won't easily deny you because you are "Asian looking." I think you're approach was wrong and you were denied because you made a foolish comment.

If I was the person in charge of hiring and a potential candidate made the same comment as you did, I would not ask you to come in for an interview as well. It shows that you lack confidence and also that you are not well versed in the English language. No one says I am "Asian looking." It's either you are Asian or not.

cm1204 wrote:

No one says I am "Asian looking." It's either you are Asian or not.

Well, that's arguably open to debate. You could say you are of "Asian descent", but don't see yourself as Asian at all because you share no cultural or language traits with Asia. Official definition for being "Asian" would be to be a citizen of an Asian country, so it's not so black and white.

You are not getting the point. If you are fluent in English, you don't say I am Asian looking. I have never heard someone make such a comment and it's grammatically incorrect.

Secondly, if you have to make a comment of such when you are applying for a job, then you should not apply for that job in the first place. Trying to justify a foolish comment like that is useless. Think about it.

If you are the employer and the potential candidate randomly says "I am Asian looking" you wouldn't be thrown off? Really?

cm1204 wrote:

What do you mean by "Asian looking?" Are you Asian or not?

Absolutely.  My aunt who was born in England and apparently Anglo-Saxon was "Asian looking" because she had a single eye fold.  That did not mean that she was Asian.

Again, the point is the grammatical era. Also, why would you make such a random comment to your possible employer? If you are applying for a job, but make a foolish comment like that, wouldn't that raise a red flag? If they offered an interview, you should go in whether you have Asian features or not and blow them away with your English language knowledge. Not say an awkward grammatically incorrect comment such as "I am Asian looking" to an interviewer you never met.

cm1204 wrote:

Again, the point is the grammatical era. Also, why would you make such a random comment to your possible employer? If you are applying for a job, but make a foolish comment like that, wouldn't that raise a red flag? If they offered an interview, you should go in whether you have Asian features or not and blow them away with your English language knowledge. Not say an awkward grammatically incorrect comment such as "I am Asian looking" to an interviewer you never met.

You're applying your view based on what you're used to in your country. In Vietnam, I can guarantee you, most of Vietnamese employers (for teaching English)  won't notice amazing English versus standard English, and they will definitely prejudice against people who look Asian. So I'd say you might actually save yourself from wasting time if you tell them you are "Asian looking" in advance, just saying.

It is what it is.  Like DanFromSF said, the reverse discrimination occurs in certain other areas in other countries.

I noticed this form of discrimination when I first visited Asia over a decade ago.  They would rather hire a high school graduate from the US with an average C grade over an Asian who grew up in the US with a college degree and speaks perfect American English.  Even a "returning vietnamese" is discriminated for English teaching positions.  They'll gladly steal your money but won't let you teach English.  Don't sweat it.

I would just make my money back in the US or wherever you're from and visit Vietnam and just enjoy the free time.  If you have any professional degree, you may be able to get a better paying job over there doing that.  The money I can make in the US would be equivalent to so many years teaching English in Asia, it's not worth the aggravation over discrimination by my own race.

Also, like others have already said, the discrimination is much less in wealthier Asian countries.   My sister taught English in Japan 20 years ago.  She saved up a lot and enjoyed her free time greatly.  Unfortunately, SE Asia just isn't there yet.

-JohnD- wrote:

...I cannot speak to the preference for Americans over Canadians or Aussies or Brits other than guessing that the American pronunciations are more easily understood worldwide--and that we don't call a cookie a biscuit

This is a huge generalization (even though it was only a guess!). There are parts of america where a brit/aussie (a competent/native speaker of the language) could visit and have no idea what they were talking about. It's not called "southern drawl" for no reason you know. Similarly, if a southern american were to travel to Vietnam (I don't know how likely this is, but go with me on this one) to teach English, how likely is it that Vietnamese students will understand him/her. In UK and AUS there are parts where the accent seems less "clear", but it's also based on the person's schooling, family background, friends etc. So not necessarily a regional thing. it's somewhat narrow-minded to say the american pronunciation is more easily understood worldwide.

As for the example with Cookie and Biscuit. There's other brit English words the VIetnamese are more comfortable with. e.g. lift instead of elevator.

It's a generalization that VN and most of Asia prefer the American accent, but it is true.  Is it because it's easier for them to understand?  In a vacuum, no, that's not true since how would they know which accent is easier to understand?   However, in this world of television and movies, the American accent is what they are most familiar with.  CNN and the Discovery Channel are pretty ubiquitous around the world where ever they cater to business people.  Their primary source of foreign movies are also likely American blockbusters.  Even internet based media such as Youtube is dominated by American accent (even when they're not native speakers).  If the dvd pirates are still in business around VN, go browse the selection.  Other than Vietnamese and Chinese movies, it's pretty much dominated by American movies.  Media is America's primary weapon of diplomacy.  Ubiquity doesn't equate to better, but the end result is hard to deny.

First of all the cookie or biscuit thing was clearly a joke.  If you couldn't see that you need to lighten up.   

That said, I taught in a middle school with a young man who was a Glaswegian.  I for one had to listen intently and still had to guess at 10% of what he said.  However he was a good teacher and well liked.  He got canned supposedly because one of the Vietnamese English teachers complained about his accent but there may have been some politics at the contract level involved.  It is possible that his agent, a scum that I wouldn't even speak to,  was actually trying to force him into another school.  Aside from that, students are flexible.  After his transfer, when I queried one of the most fluent ones about the accent, he said they simply learned to hear his accent but not to speak that way.  One of my most fluent students who also studied with the Glaswegian spoke with an irritating "Valley girl" accent.  She learned it on the Disney channel.

There supposedly is a neutral American accent.  This is why business that don't put their call centers in the Philippines or India usually have them in Iowa.

On the subject of Filipino teachers, the center that I taught at used them very wisely to teach most of their kiddie classes on weekends.  They were all professional educators with some having Masters in Education and some taught both English and other subjects at an international school during the week.  Parents that I spoke with told me that they thought they were very good and I believe they were.  They also gave the business the advantage of longevity as opposed to in and out Native speakers.  I taught a lot of the teens that they had taught previously and there was no problem with accents.  The biggest pronunciation problems for most Vietnamese speakers are final consonants and consonant blends.   This is not a problem for Filipino speakers who can easily demonstrate these things properly.

sflxn wrote:

It's a generalization that VN and most of Asia prefer the American accent, but it is true.  Is it because it's easier for them to understand?  In a vacuum, no, that's not true since how would they know which accent is easier to understand?   However, in this world of television and movies, the American accent is what they are most familiar with.  CNN and the Discovery Channel are pretty ubiquitous around the world where ever they cater to business people.  Their primary source of foreign movies are also likely American blockbusters.  Even internet based media such as Youtube is dominated by American accent (even when they're not native speakers).  If the dvd pirates are still in business around VN, go browse the selection.  Other than Vietnamese and Chinese movies, it's pretty much dominated by American movies.  Media is America's primary weapon of diplomacy.  Ubiquity doesn't equate to better, but the end result is hard to deny.

Hardly true I'm afraid (no matter how much information you've been told about me - or how many fake 'likes' a post gets - like yours). Just because there are more american moveies and CNN is everywhere. It's only students of a certain competence in English that can watch these and truly understand the language. For vietnamese students starting to learn, it wouldn't matter if the accent (note that he said pronunciation - but I'm sure he meant accent) is Brit, aussie, American or Canadian. As long as the speaker is clear.

Pronunciation isn't defined by the hue (colour) of your passport, nor the hue of your currency. (No matter how much one loves the green backs)

THIGV wrote:

First of all the cookie or biscuit thing was clearly a joke.  If you couldn't see that you need to lighten up.   
........

Surprised your post didn't get any fake 'likes'.

BTW, a joke on an internet forum is followed by a or LOL, as it was clearly the case here. However, you say tomato, I say tomae-toe would have been a more appropriate joke.

I can understand the frustration, but I don't understand the expressed sentiment of "save yourself from wasting time" (by telling potential employers that you are "Asian looking" in advance).

I've learned during the many careers in my long enough life that in order to find a job, one needs to do everything in one's power to get one's foot in the door, and that proverbial door is the interview.  The only guarantee that the interview would be a waste of time is when it doesn't exist.  Therefore, I cannot wrap my brain around the idea of ringing the potential employer to tell him/her NOT to give me the interview!  Let's imagine this one-sided conversation over the phone:

"Hey there!  Even though I need the job, I don't think you would want to hire me, so why don't I just help you making up your mind before you even meet me, OK?   The point is, I just happen to have Asian physical characteristics, and I'm absolutely certain that you'll see that as an obstacle, so do you think you could just give me your decision right now, in the name of time saving and all that?"

Ahem.  Why contacting the potential employer if you must sabotage your chance before it were given to you?  Why not save yourself even more time by *not* making the phone call in the first place?  In fact, why wasting your hope for a career which you absolutely will not have a chance to be considered?  I will go one step further:  why coming to a country where the most popular job available is teaching English?  It's a waste of time and money to leave your home and travel to a country where you cannot get the only job you want to have due to the way you look. 

Failure can be bought for nothing -- no time wasted, no money wasted, no effort wasted -- so why bother paying?

Ciambella. This is my point exactly. But people don't seem to get it.

You're right Ciambella, I would simply not try to get an English teaching job in Vietnam if I were not white or a bilingual Vietnamese national (the father of my ex Vietnamese wife was an English teacher and the fact that he spoke perfect Vietnamese allowed him to get some clients for whom it was important to be able to communicate also in their native tone). So yeah, if you're already in Vietnam looking for an English teaching job, then why add obstacles to your interviews since you're already here anyway.

Ciambella"s example phone call perfectly move us from the theoretical to the concrete.  However, I would take exception to the idea that people shouldn't even try.  I think it is entirely reasonable that young Viet Kieu may have a valid desire to teach in Vietnam.  As WillyBaldy suggests, there may be a niche for bilingual Viet Kieu teaching absolute beginners.  This is what my center did with beginning adults and it seemed a valid strategy.  The only caveat is that the teacher must take care avoid over use of Vietnamese. They also may need to accept making a few dollars an hour less than their compatriots.

As far as second generation westerners whose origins are in other Asian countries and who want to teach, they may be eminently qualified but they still are beating their head against the wall, especially if looking for the best paying jobs.  It may be unfortunate but it is true.

Yes THIGV it's a crual world out there, sadly.

THIGV wrote:

However, I would take exception to the idea that people shouldn't even try.

My sarcasm evidently didn't show through in the post.  My comment was *not* to tell people that they shouldn't try, but to prod them into *not* thinking they would fail.  The only guaranteed failure is the belief that failure is an option, or in the case of this thread, the certainty that failure is the result.

Ciambella wrote:

The only guaranteed failure is the belief that failure is an option, or in the case of this thread, the certainty that failure is the result.

I think it relates to the philosophical thought that we often are our own worse ennemy and that we often create our failures ourselves.

Reminds me of that famous last scene in the books about Miyamoto Musashi (the famous samurai) who was about to figh Kujiro (the samurai with the fastest blade strike) in a final, to the death duel. Well, Kujiro removed his sword from his scabbard and threw the scabbard on the beach where the duel was taking place. Musashi simply turned around and went back to his boat. Kujiro asked him what the heck he was doing, and Musashi told him that Kujiro lost the fight already, by throwing the scabbard on the beach it meant Kujiro believed he would lose, so there was no point in fighting.

Sorry if I did not get the name spellings right, it's been over 25 years that I've read these books!

Can I please have some of the same stuff that you guys are smoking

sanooku wrote:

Can I please have some of the same stuff that you guys are smoking

This is close to being an ad hominem attack.  Can you specify who and where others on this thread have written things that are not true?  In fact the best thing written here is encapsulated in these few words: 

Adhome01 wrote:

It's not the schools, it's the parents.

THIGV wrote:

sanooku wrote:

Can I please have some of the same stuff that you guys are smoking

This is close to being an ad hominem attack.  Can you specify who and where others on this thread have written things that are not true?  In fact the best thing written here is encapsulated in these few words: 

Adhome01 wrote:

It's not the schools, it's the parents.

Just a joke. Relax. Don't' take it too seriously.