A potential move to Kuwait

hmmmm... I'll just be direct... the security issues " subject wise, as you speak of them" are a mute point.  I feel more secure in Kuwait then on the streets of Houston.  Driving is a whole other subject ... yes, very bad and you'll have to be vary careful, ...in my line of work I have several contacts that consult on this subject... and as bad as the statistics are here it's still 'extremely' padded by the nature and culture of reporting.  (positive to negative and back to positive)  On the subject of finding a group of friends to socialize with, that'll be easy here... lot's of western social groups and many wives living here in your same situation.  (I have another 'opinion' on kids being brought here, but thats another subject and would probably rub a lot of people the wrong way) 

Good luck on your new adventure! 

Enigmausly covered it quite well.

There are two important things to consider:
Yes, the traffic is dangerous, to put it bluntly. The roads are filled with idiots, for the lack of the more appropriate word. If there is anything that will chase us out of there, it will be traffic.
Second, quality of education is very low at most schools (if not all of them), and at the same time they are charging ridiculous amounts of money for the tuition.

Oh and you will definitely be "sitting home all day long by myself and getting really bored or depressed"

Welcome to the club 

Come on guys, it is not that bad, the lady is eventually coming, joining her husband, she just needed some assurances on specific issues. I guess Enigmausly's feedback was kinda realistic, although I disagree on the traffic driving issue, You will gust need to get used and understand the culture here, which you will, with time.
Otherwise, life is quite laid back her, easy, and relatively cheap at the same time. The currency is strong, which makes travelling more accessible and affordable.
There so many things you can do other than just stay home Mom, you will come across several activities and can join many groups, it all depends on you how to fill your time,
The country is safe and secured, on the other hand, this shouldn't be a major concern for you before coming to
Kuwait.

In the end, its all up to us how positive are we looking at the glass, half full or half empty!

Considering I feel like I'm dodging a bullet nearly every single time I get into a car here I would say that Enigmausly's feedback about the traffic is very realistic. It's not perfect but the fact of the matter is it is what it is and the traffic is bad. I've been here for a some time now and I disagree with you about the getting use to it part, I still find it mind boggling the way people drive! 

I will agree with you that life is easy here and the currency is strong but I wouldn't consider it cheap. I moved here from NYC, which is considered one of the most expensive cities in the states to live in, and I pay more here for plenty of things such as groceries.

As a housewife who stays home all day I've taken up activities, join groups, made plenty of of friends and let me tell you I am still bored out of my mind!

We too, get really bogged with driving despite living here for many years, its all about the multinational cross culture and background of drivers as well.
sometimes, heavy traffic does really reduce the rate of accidents lol

inalsa wrote:

Come on guys, it is not that bad, the lady is eventually coming, joining her husband, she just needed some assurances on specific issues. I guess Enigmausly's feedback was kinda realistic, although I disagree on the traffic driving issue, You will gust need to get used and understand the culture here, which you will, with time.

Yes it is that bad. How am I supposed to get used to being rammed into which happened twice already here in Kuwait (once with my 1 year old son in the car), and never in my previous 20 years of driving experience?
Or how exactly do you suggest I get used to the constant terror of street racing noise right under our windows almost every single night, sometimes until dawn?

I am all for taking things lightly, I guess the proof is that I consider roundabouts a good bit of bizarre fun, but the rest is not funny. How do you get used to and understand the culture where people end up dead on the roads daily? I have never dreamt I would see so many dead bodies lying on the streets.

what do you all mean traffic is bad? what is wrong with you people? the police are doing their utmost to keep the streets safe, u know, they catch culprits at 7AM and drag their sorry behinds to the police station on a thursday to impound their cars, for having a silly sticker on the side.

they dont have time to catch speeders, crazy drivers, lazy parkers, gawkers etc. they're too busy with the likes of me and our stickers..

sorry, sore subject -.- its only been a week.

Elizabeth, it is what you make it. Tina came to join her husband and shes a social butterfly now giving advice, helping others out. you either sit at home (on your bum) and do nothing, or you actively strive to do something and have fun. believe it or not there is fun to be had in kuwait, there are several gatherings of many different kinds, and if you want you can keep a very full calendar.

Don't even get me started on those sticker dudes, they are the worst.

Ribosom, It is tragic what you have just mentioned, I am sorry for the incident occurred to your son, yet, I personally find it quite livable, having accepted the fact to relocate to Kuwait, it is not the worse after all, is it?
We all make the choice to stay or leave, depending on what our priorities are. People and expats will continue to come to Kuwait, and other GCC countries, no matter what are the negative things they may encounter.
What I am trying to convey here, is we need to be postive, especially towards expats who are coming with complete darkness and uncertainty!!
I too agree with Legacy, its how you make it end of the day.

I believe no harm in exploring new cultures, places, and get exposed to the outside world, as a new adventure, with its good and bad experience, which you will have to make by yourself, not by anyone else feedback

Ok, yeah… I just wrote a book here …lol

Alright… I guess it’s time to get in trouble.  …and if you have thin skin, and or are easily offended, you should probably move on the next post and ‘not’ read any further.  lol

First point, …she said… “considering”, and yes, in western cultures women actually have a ‘real’ say in where they and their family will be relocating to. 

Second, lets qualify the subject … I wasn’t speaking of traffic, I stated the term “driving” and that’s exactly what I meant.  “Traffic” is an infrastructure issue, and a totally different subject.
(and by the way, if everyone here had the ability to obtain a license, a vehicle, and get on the road… you wouldn’t be able to drive around this country because it doesn’t have the infrastructure (physically nor in planning) to support the actual population base in driving… this is a ‘fact’ that people here in the government have been discussing for quite sometime and relates directly to a lot of their licensing and peripheral policy’s) 
But back to the subject at hand… and lets start with statistical data. 

Houston Texas  (as a western reference) in 2012 had 183 fatalities (with a population base of about 4m of which about 3m are licensed drivers), with another 211 fatalities in 2013… now, add those numbers together and you get about the normal ‘reported’ vehicle fatalities in Kuwait each year …  this being a country with a lesser total population base and less then 1/3 the licensed drivers … so in summary your looking a basically double the fatalities annually with a third of the licensed drivers, or 6 times the simplified rate being reference (and that’s based on reporting).  Now, what a lot of people don’t know is how the statistics are skewed in reference to international standards (and Kuwait’s not the only country doing this … no one really wants to look ‘too’ bad) … western reporting encompasses all fatalities “vehicle related” … this includes pedestrian related and injures resulting from vehicle accidents … here in Kuwait (statistically) pedestrian strikes resulting in fatalities, and injuries incurred in an accident resulting in a fatality are not counted in the reporting. 
Example … your driving along at 120 in a posted 80 section of coast road and a pedestrian trying to catch their bus runs out in front of you resulting in your knocking them 40 meters in the air killing them pretty much instantly… you in turn freak out loosing control of your vehicle slamming into to two other vehicles one of which has five kids ranging from 2 to 12 playing around un-seatbelted in the backseat … as emergency personnel arrive they find yourself, one child, and one other adult dead on scene… one other child dies on the way to the hospital… one more child and two adults die in the hospital over the following weeks.  In the western cultures this accident is reported as resulting in 8 vehicle related fatalities (1 pedestrian, 3 kids, and 4 adults) … in Kuwait it’s statistically reported as 3 vehicle related fatalities (those originally in the vehicles and died on scene) … the pedestrian has their own reporting category … those who died on the way to or after arriving at the hospital are categorized as dying of “medical complications” … lol
My friend who works at the ministry and deals with this data told me in ‘his opinion’ that there are probably 2.5 times the deaths in this country that should be statistically reported differently then they are in order to be comparably aliened to its international counterparts… based on this knowledge you could now assess 15 times the rate as opposed to the 6.  (The Kuwait government themselves said in 2012 that the country had broken some sort of worlds record regarding fatalities on roadways per capita… although in defense reading the description provided I never did understand the formula used and or how it related to any documented record)

Another observation… how do I expect a person who was not ‘raised’ in a driving ‘mandated’ culture and has spent little to no time in environments comparable to western expectations to even know what safe driving practices look like.   The majority of the drivers in this country (expats) came here not knowing how to drive and learned driving by examples and processes with Kuwait itself.  A lot of the driving styles here came from places like India, Egypt, and the Philippines (and many other places I’m sure) … and at the risk of offending ‘again’, I have driven in all three places and can tell you by first hand experience that they are some of the worst driving environments in the world… and when you take the habits learned from these places and then introduce the ‘speed’ that is considered acceptable by those who are simply video gamers calling themselves good drivers because they haven’t died ‘yet’… you get one of the most tragically dangerous road environments in the world – Kuwait. 

And lets talk about one other local trait that exists that allows all this to take place… “lack of accountability”
…the locals deny a problem exists… lets not go down the path of excessive speed, lack of seatbelts, no car seats, texting, talking, general disrespect (cutting in q’s), stopping in the middle of the road, parking in through lanes (double parking in through lanes), running lights,  pedestrians that ‘just’ want to walk into traffic, kids throwing things at traffic, no ‘real’ enforcement of traffic laws, men chasing women in the cars playing cat and mouse games while all these other things are happening around them.  No, no… it all comes down to one thing here… if something happens and someone get killed, it’s really no ones fault and no ones responsible for it… it was simply … yeah, yeah … I’m going to say it … “Gods will”  (this is not meant as a religious slur, I simply see this phrase as a too often used cop out from people being held accountable for they’re stupidity)

This is the driving culture you defend?

inalsa wrote:

What I am trying to convey here, is we need to be postive, especially towards expats who are coming with complete darkness and uncertainty!!

Oh that's real sporting of you!  ...  SURPRISE!!!  Welcome to your new culture!  lol

I believe she 'asked' for "feedback"?

Enigmausly ..in a nutshell, well said, and makes a hell of a sense reading it all the way to the end what you have just posted.
Well done mate

Enigmausly you have just earned yourself a coffee my friend.

name your time and place.

legacy wrote:

Enigmausly you have just earned yourself a coffee my friend.

name your time and place.

actually I think we should do a regulars get together one day ... something simple ... maybe when I get back, ...I'm headed to Houston tomorrow, Chicago for a couple days next week, couple days in London, then back here I think in about 12 days... I'll check in occasionally 

Have a good evening...

My friend, it is not MY CULTURE, its an ongoing culture at any place we consider going to. I am not offended though, but it is not as awful as everyone tried to give a feedback from own point of view.
I was only trying to sum it up and say, Kuwait is livable, we know there are many drawback and negative issues, like everywhere else, no place is perfect, neither people would be.

Have a safe trip my friend

Thanks everyone for the feedback!  The driving is definitely a concern for me.  That is some pretty scary feedback......  I know there at many cons to a move like this but there are also many positives as well.   Not sure as to what to do....  If anything ever happened to my children because of a move I would never forgive myself.
Elizabeth

ElizabethCroft wrote:

Thanks everyone for the feedback!  The driving is definitely a concern for me.  That is some pretty scary feedback......  I know there at many cons to a move like this but there are also many positives as well.   Not sure as to what to do....  If anything ever happened to my children because of a move I would never forgive myself.
Elizabeth

You will be shocked when you see how the children are being driven here, hanging through the windows and sunroof openings.

I will try to bit a little more positive, if you stay in residential areas and don't have to use freeways as much, survival rate is much higher. You car though will never be safe. I just had to go to the city and back, which is around 30 miles each way. During my trip I have seen aftermaths of 4 serious accidents. I am extra careful and I try to anticipate every risky situation that may be coming my way from anywhere, but after driving a while I am mentally and physically completely exhausted.

I certainly take strong exception to your 'driving styles' reference Sir. I do not know about Egypt and Philippines, but the 'Driving Environment' as you call it is very safe in India. And Indian drivers in Kuwait are one of the safest drivers and that is the reason why everybody wants to hire them whether for domestic or work visas. I also strongly object to your 'habits learned from these places' comment. You cannot make a general reference or remark like this and try to portray that people from some places are making matters worse here. Almost 99 out of 100 accidents taking place in Kuwait are because of the reckless driving of the locals here. Expats, especially Asians, drive with the utmost care for fear of financial as well as career loss. So do not generalise that we are contributing to the dire situation.

http://m.indiatimes.com/culture/travel/ … 31027.html

lol Tina, you slay me 

ayyaz, please do not take such offence my friend - we're not "pointing fingers" here and blaming people; with all due respect, i have been to India, several times, visited Kandla (up north), Mumbai, Hyderabad and Agra. the driving there is also "different".

however, you are generalizing by saying that asians are "the safest drivers", most of the transgressions i have seen involved your compatriots, not out of malice or anything but ignorance - i'll give you examples of how i saw a family man with his family in the car not allow a guy in a giant car to merge into his lane, which resulted in the latter almost smashing into the former, and he had no idea what he had done wrong.

plus, i live around schools - the drivers there taking the kids to school commit the worst of violations.

so please, if you are asking someone not to stereotype and generalize, do not do it yourself. positive or negative, it does not matter, a generalization is a generalization.

relax and dont take strong exceptions be cool, let it slide. no offence was intended.

Haha I had to dude! He was totally asking for it 

Pandora's Box has been opened.

Tina you just killed me there, are you a lawyer of some sort providing 13 counts of e-evidence! haha

From a soon to be Kuwait expat, this driving issue is now becoming my no1 source of trepidation! I would never have guessed that would be the case to start with...ah well...

Hi everyone,

Im thinking about relocating to Kuwait, my partner is a civil engineer and had to recently move to Kuwait. I am a medic who had to give their PhD up (as I didnt want to relocate to USA - seems bit ironic now). I have been offered a job with his company and I am now considering to move to Kuwait.

I am beyond scared. If anyone on here is a Brit or even better a Londoner they know what am giving up.

- Traffic and reckless driving
- risk of living with a bf
- lack of social life
- lack of freedom for women

are all major concerns. I am use to having amazing transportation/car access to pretty much any goods and services.

Being a lady am worried on cosmetic side of things. Are there any good salons or gyms PTs? Im sorry if my worries seem stupid but haven read around i just find myself crying with worry.

Any advice??

Thanks,

It is definitely nothing like driving in the US.  It gives a whole new meaning to driving defensively.  I was in Afghan and sometimes I think it was safer with the rockets and mortars coming in than driving in Kuwait.  You just have to drive defensively and pay attention at all time and you will be all right no just riding/driving and day dreaming.

bassin makes an excellent point - wouldnt mind a gattling gun out of the sunroof of my car..

"cut me off without an indicator, i show you!"
RATATATATATAATA

Princess - read the forum, you will find enough material to write a book regarding your queries as a woman moving to kuwait.

@PRINCESS_NBG: Coming from a chick who moved here from NYC I know exactly how you feel because I felt the same way and honestly didn't even want to move here at first. But eventually I did and I'll give it to you straight.

-Yes the traffic is bad.
-There is a risk with living with your bf but many expats do it, just don't draw attention to yourself and you'll be fine.
-It depends on what you considered a social life (some people are happy with coffee dates & others like to party) but if you're anything like me yes you will lack a social life but then you make friends with people older than your parents and just learn to deal with it. Eventually you'll make friends with people your own age and it gets better
-It's not as bad as Saudi but you will lose some freedom that you are use to. The worst for me is not being able to utilize 90% of my closet and not being able to speak my mind in public since I don't want to accidentally offend anyone.

I use to have amazing transportation and access to pretty much any goods and services too but that will change. Transportation is there but all the goods aren't if can find it expect to pay more. For services you'll find the basic hair, nail salon and massages but I've been to a few and found them to be subpar but then again I'm not going to lie I have HIGH standards Angelina Jolie's hairdresser use to cut my hair so I'm not going to be happy with just anyone cutting my hair. Wax and laser salons don't exist here. The gyms are okay but for what you're paying they're nothing to write home about.

Stop crying it's not the end of the world, it's not the best place in the world to be but not the worst and you will manage! You will be moving here with your bf so you will have a support system and someone to hang out with all the time, many don't have that luxury starting out.

Wow, Tina! you really did a good job there. Funny accidents videos are available all over the internet for all countries. Did you find some for wherever you are from? I do not deny that accidents are not happening in India. But to say that our driving styles contribute to the horrific accident scene here in Kuwait, well I just want to say that I strongly DISAGREE in capital letters to that.

And Legacy how can you say I was generalizing. I just felt compelled to reply to something I felt was totally uncalled for. Sorry that I was not able to let it slide, maybe some people would do that. I just want to very humbly request everyone not to post sweeping remarks about any group, community, ethnicity or nationality without enough justification for such remarks.

I hope I am not asking for the Moon here.

Sorry ayyaz but you were asking for that one  

You say that you're not generalizing but you defend Indians then turn around make a comment towards about Asians... if that's not generalizing then what is? The truth of the matter is there are bad drivers everywhere of every nationality. You can't get upset every time someone makes a comment about it or you'd be upset your entire life. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions whether or not you agree with them or not but don't get all bent out of shape over it.

ayyaz1972 wrote:

I certainly take strong exception to your 'driving styles' reference Sir. I do not know about Egypt and Philippines, but the 'Driving Environment' as you call it is very safe in India. And Indian drivers in Kuwait are one of the safest drivers and that is the reason why everybody wants to hire them whether for domestic or work visas. I also strongly object to your 'habits learned from these places' comment. You cannot make a general reference or remark like this and try to portray that people from some places are making matters worse here. Almost 99 out of 100 accidents taking place in Kuwait are because of the reckless driving of the locals here. Expats, especially Asians, drive with the utmost care for fear of financial as well as career loss. So do not generalise that we are contributing to the dire situation.

You can object all you like... and they're hired here because they're cheap and plentiful (let's be blunt).  I've driven in many places, including several areas in India, and I'm not generalizing I'm simply stating ... and strictly a comparison (it's not the speed there so much as the traffic tends to be all-consuming most of the time, and the people are nicer about what they do ...I would say from a 'Safety' standpoint, I'd much rather drive there then here / less fatalities per capita of drivers / I'd be more worried and dying in a public transportation incident with it's outdated infrastructure issues).  Here it's more the integration of the extremely different styles that blinds into a cocktail of madness (why, I'm not sure - my ministry friend said according to their records, 94% of licensed drivers in Kuwait 'claim' no previous licensing or driver training outside of country - that infers the majority of drivers in country learning to drive in same said country) ...and I would agree on one of your points... although expats do contribute heavily to minor collisions, bumps, and scrapes... it is the nationals who make up the majority of the fatalities.  You want to be thin skinned about the subject, that's 'your' issue... I'm not here to pull punches... but, ...nor am I on this forum to talk specifically about any country other then the one we're currently residing in. 

Here's generalizing ... I find most driving habits (worldwide) as simply symptoms of the subject culture.  There are a little less then 200 countries in the world today ...of which 'most' have inadequate at best, training systems for their drivers (is the name of your communities driving simulator "Grand Theft Auto"? - lol).  Is it your culture to leave your accommodation at the same time you were suppose to be where you were going?  Is it your countries culture to drink a beer for each kilometer you plan on driving to 'calm the nerves'?  Is it your countries culture to blame your given deity for your own stupidity?  Is it your counties culture to have more farm animals on the road then cars?  Is it your countries driving culture to emulate movies like "The Fast and Furious / Tokyo Drift"?  Is it your countries culture to 'not' hold those "accountable" who have the right last names?... Those are generalizations ... and are all examples of environments that contribute to higher "fatality" ratio's!

dear Ayyaz, no one is talking out of malice here or generalizing, they are making observations.

in essence, everyone is contributing to the dire situation of driving in kuwait - so please, again, do not take personal offence against a comment that was not aimed at your person.

as you can see, enigmausly is very verse in matters of road safety and statistics, i'd take what he says with a pinch of salt.

we apologise for you taking offence as it was not our intention to offend you.

Better than that I would love to drive around Kuwait City for a few days in an MRAP.  Then let them pull out in front of me, cut me off, park in the street or park behind me and block me from getting out of a parking lot.

Then maybe Kuwait should have drivers training before it issue a drivers license to someone that has never driven.  All it takes to get a drivers license in Kuwait is a lot of "TIME" waiting for one and they take your picture.  And as for your other comments I thinki you watch to many movies what it is like driving in other counties.  At least we have livestock and wildlife in my country

Your last paragraph pretty much sums it all up.

bassin101 wrote:

Then maybe Kuwait should have drivers training before it issue a drivers license to someone that has never driven.  All it takes to get a drivers license in Kuwait is a lot of "TIME" waiting for one and they take your picture.  And as for your other comments I thinki you watch to many movies what it is like driving in other counties.  At least we have livestock and wildlife in my country

In 'our' country they keep the livestock off the roads... ...when I was living in West Africa they would build these long back country highways (really nice), so your driving along at 100 - 120 kh and suddenly as you come around a bend or over a small hill there's sheep just lying there in the middle of the road, and they don't move, they just lay there looking at you (got to be one of the most stupid animals I've come across), free roaming cattle, donkeys (at least they move - lol), sheep, goats... I've seen 'so' many accidents (aftermath's) due to animal collisions there... add drinking, cell phones, and speed on these nice new roads... I was just glad there were few drivers overall. 

There is driver training in Kuwait, but... it's simply showing people how to "operate" the physical vehicle, and communicating a few rules necessary to pass a small test... of which they fail people almost consistently the first time in order extort money over (or so I've been told - lol).  A lot of these people have never been cognizant of what it means to drive, and there's no provision to require actual classes to develop defensive skills.  I know one National female who stated just a couple weeks ago (here at work), that her husband (a national) went and got her license for her and he's scheduling his filipino driver to show her how to operate their SUV next week ... she's got the license on her now and she still doesn't know how to turn on her own vehicle! (wtf?) ... lol ... what worries me even more, they've got small kids ...

Yes, there are skilled drivers around... but, there are just so many unskilled still occupying lanes out there that at times I feel like driving here is just a game of roulette ... and if your lucky, ...you'll only have to worry about the occasional transfer of paint in the roundabout ... lol

Hi Elizabeth,
Will this be your first move abroad? If it is , the first couple of months will be a culture shock but it will pass. As everyone mentioned driving here is dangerous and there are a lot of accidents, so prepare to be a super defensive driver. It is what it is and you get used to it after a while. There are many stay at home spouses that came with their husbands and in my company, I cant speak from personal experience, the wives form pretty tight groups. Like a Kuwait Wives Club, if you will:). It also helps to have a hobby and a list of books you have not read but wanted to! I found that many expats stay here for a couple months at a time then leave for a quick break. Kuwait is relatively close to Europe and Asia so it is possible to hop on a place and get away for a week or so. This seems to be the pattern I have noticed once you secure you residency permit and civil ID.
Regarding safety I lived in Northern VA / DC area for a couple years and feel much safer here then walking DC at night. Believe me. The Kuwaitis value family life and this is a family friendly culture, from what I have seen.
Good luck and let us know what you decide.

Most of the info & statistics that you have Enigmausly seems to be provided to you by your 'Ministry Friend'. How good & reliable this friend of yours is most of us can just guess. And if you are calling these people 'plentiful & cheap' in the same breath, let me request you to add 'hardworking' too. Oh shit!!! did I just do any generalization there? I guess your lot are more hardworking and more valuable too (no need to say more educated & sophisticated). 

Oh shit!! not again!!! Did I hurt someone's entitlement to have their own opinion Tina?

ayyaz1972 wrote:

Most of the info & statistics that you have Enigmausly seems to be provided to you by your 'Ministry Friend'. How good & reliable this friend of yours is most of us can just guess. And if you are calling these people 'plentiful & cheap' in the same breath, let me request you to add 'hardworking' too. Oh shit!!! did I just do any generalization there? I guess your lot are more hardworking and more valuable too (no need to say more educated & sophisticated). 

Oh shit!! not again!!! Did I hurt someone's entitlement to have their own opinion Tina?

No your not, no harm beyond your fragile thin skin ...we still voice our opinions... lol

Actually it's a blend of observations of processes, data out of the ministry, and data you can look up yourself on the internet...  and ..."Cheap and Plentiful" is 'not' a metaphor, it's simply a fact... "including" the so called, 'self thought', educated sophistics. (oh, and hardworking has no context to driving skills)