Shops closed on sundays?

gosubmit wrote:

I see that since few months, almost all shops and shopping malls are shut during sundays in budapest. Super markets too!  Summer has come, and this is a problem in budapest.

The Hungarian government passed a law that supermarket stores are to be closure on Sunday starting in March of this year. Except for some loopholes, only small stores or owner run stores are allowed to be open on Sundays.

This proposal was in the news for a long time in Hungary, and it even made international news last year.

gosubmit wrote:

When do you think they will reopen?

They won't reopen on Sundays until the government changes or revokes the law.

klsallee wrote:

....only small stores or owner run stores are allowed to be open on Sundays....

I believe they also restricted hours so no shop can open earlier than 0600h which messed up plenty of people who travel long distances to work.   There was also a hurried amendment to stop petrol (gas) stations operating as supermarkets.

Rumours abound that:

1) It was a deal with the Christian Democrats as some trade off for support on some Fidesz policy.
2) Orban's relatives ran a supermarket chain of small size
3) Put the larger retailers like Tesco out of business so that the weak and low quality Hungarian CBA chain could compete.

Some results are already noticeable.  Around here, it's a ghost town on Sunday, everyone stays at home and they not go out and frequent the smaller stores. There's a mad rush on Saturdays and Fridays to get shopping done. Shops are having to have longer hours now to get the same amount of trading time in so it did nothing really for families at all. 

Getting things like bread on Sunday is real nuisance. Border towns like Sopron will have been hit quite hard as many Austrians were in the stores there on Sundays (as they have similar Sunday trading laws). Baumaxx is thought to have pulled out of Hungary because of the law but it has stayed in other countries where they do not have restrictive Sunday trading laws.

There's some hope for a constitutional court decision knocking down the law similar to the Croatian constitutional court's decisions which is that Sunday closing based on tenuous arguments or religion or otherwise was essentially pointless and has no place in a modern society.   I'm not up to date on how they are getting on with that.

Yes initially I thought this was a pain - due to flights I normally arrive into Bp on a late Saturday evening. I'm trying to renovate/furnish my apartment and it's a pain not being able to make progress on the Sunday.
However, it has forced me to spend a more relaxing day, walking around Margaret Island, checking out the small independent markets (craft markets etc.), and catching up on friends.
I've been buying stuff from the local ABC instead.
I'm thinking it will help the smaller companies, and perhaps in a small way, avoid the disaster we have in the UK where the likes of Tesco have annihilated the local independent stores.
I think the government should do more to weight the laws in favour of the independents, as otherwise Hungary will be just like everywhere else in 10 years time - the same large company chains...

gazamataz wrote:

....I think the government should do more to weight the laws in favour of the independents, as otherwise Hungary will be just like everywhere else in 10 years time - the same large company chains...

It all Euro-normalised already anyway.  It's the same everywhere so that boat has already departed.

I think it's an unnecessary interference in people's lives. If I want to go to a garden centre, DIY store or supermarket, it should be nothing to do with the government.  The Austrians and Germans have this kind of silly nonsense and no-one in Hungary (surely) wants to be like the Austrians.

Most people work all week and do not need to have their weekend leisure activities organised by someone else (i.e. government) on a restricted time basis. 

Tesco is a very large employer. One might as well complain about the telcos or power generation or gas companies the same way. If Tesco pulls out, there would be less choice for the consumer (small shops sell the same stuff anyway), government tax take would be down and unemployment would rise.  The loss of VAT from Sunday trading will be significant.  Hungary is an economic basket case with very large debts. Cutting off 1/7th of your tax from trading income just seems just crazy if you need more cash to service those debts. 

It's like a luxury Hungary should not be able to afford (like football stadiums in Felcsút - see here: Pancho Arena).

fluffy2560 wrote:

The Austrians and Germans

And the Swiss.

And the Norwegians and the Belgians have Sunday shopping limits also, according to: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunday_shopping

The canton where I lived in Switzerland not only had Sunday shop closure, but also had early shop closure all week except for "Long Thursdays".

klsallee wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

The Austrians and Germans

And the Swiss.

And the Norwegians and the Belgians have Sunday shopping limits also, according to: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunday_shopping

The canton where I lived in Switzerland not only had Sunday shop closure, but also had early shop closure all week except for "Long Thursdays".

Ah those were the days. I remember long Thursdays in Germany.  Even England has restricted hours. But Scotland does not. It's all a total anachronism. Backwards, not forwards.

I think closing big shops and supermarketson sundays (especially in summer) is BAD for the economy and for the people.  I guess once the hungarian economy takes a plunge, they will for sure revive their policies.

gosubmit wrote:

I think closing big shops and supermarketson sundays (especially in summer) is BAD for the economy and for the people.  I guess once the hungarian economy takes a plunge, they will for sure revive their policies.

Yes, it is bad. 

What is very annoying is the argument that it benefits families. It might seem like that but people were hit on part time work and longer working hours for the other 6 days.    They even close in major tourism locations which is simply crazy.

I've noticed an uptick in the real estate market. Apparently people are fixing their houses and house prices are rising. It's because there's no value in keeping cash in the bank and of course, many HU banks are in trouble anyway.

BTW, Hungarian public debt is about 80% of GDP (which is not so unusual if one compares it to Greece at about 150%).  The current government is isolationist and protectionist and under investigation by the EU (likely to be fined) over the Russian nuclear deal.

fluffy2560 wrote:

I've noticed an uptick in the real estate market. Apparently people are fixing their houses and house prices are rising. It's because there's no value in keeping cash in the bank and of course, many HU banks are in trouble anyway.
.

I wonder if in some cases if there is a more sinister reason: Construction  as a method of money laundering.

klsallee wrote:

I wonder if in some cases if there is a more sinister reason: Construction  as a method of money laundering.

The entire building process is now electronic and everything done has to be logged online through some government portal.  There seems little opportunity to do cash payments now and avoid the dreaded VAT.  They seeem to have a handle on the unit costs and make comparisons to the averaged out norms.  It's quite oppressive (according to my builder anyway) and the fines for non-compliance brutal. 

The only possible way around I could see is maybe to buy all the materials yourself (unavoidable +27% VAT), but pay the labour charges in cash (avoidable -27% VAT) and if asked, say you did the labouring work yourself (0% VAT if the work is even feasible by an individual).   Not a recommendation of course, but just a thought.  Really the government should think seriously about a lower rate of VAT on house construction.  It's a killer for homeowners.

fluffy2560 wrote:

The entire building process is now electronic and everything done has to be logged online through some government portal. There seems little opportunity to do cash payments now and avoid the dreaded VAT.  They seeem to have a handle on the unit costs and make comparisons to the averaged out norms.

An electronic system checking costs is only for tax and VAT fraud, a different animal.

Laundering money is more diverse than just skimming on materials and VAT. It is using money from one source in a way that turns it into "clean" money at the end. In real estate or construction, this can include flipping the property, rentals of finished property, paying for legitimate construction but using a company "in on the deal", etc. It becomes more feasible if authorities do not look too hard at the source of the money.

klsallee wrote:

It becomes more feasible if authorities do not look too hard at the source of the money.

Actually tax and VAT payments are perfectly fine for the professional money launderer. It's just the cost of doing business and easily avoidable by proper structuring.

Usually the AML (Anti-Money Laundering) regulations cover a wide range of reporting, including large cash payments that might be generated by illegal activities.  Everyone in the chain needs to becomes identifiable (passing through multiple hands is called layering).   With very large amounts of cash, the money launderer needa a business that turns over huge amounts of cash through labour or human value added services - that means restaurants, hairdressers, hotels, taxi companies, car washes and so on.  Cash is king as it's totally anonymous. Cash for a discount. If you have ever seen Breaking Bad, you'll know about the cash receipts at the car wash. Once it's been layered it's legit.

I feel sorry for people who work full time and could only shop for the week on Sundays.
We have gone to Tesco in Arena Plaza on a Monday and found most of the produce shelves still half empty.
Guess the suppliers are also thrown off with stores being closed on Sunday. So for us now Sun and Mon are non shopping days.Sat. are a zoo so this really limits when we shop during the week.

A friend was over and we decided to look in the shopping mall on Sunday, fist time I realized not only the food shops are closed on Sunday but all the retail shops were closed too. Only a few places in the food court were open. It was like being in a ghost town.

Marilyn Tassy wrote:

I feel sorry for people who work full time and could only shop for the week on Sundays.
We have gone to Tesco in Arena Plaza on a Monday and found most of the produce shelves still half empty.
Guess the suppliers are also thrown off with stores being closed on Sunday.

Yes, that's right.  If the store is not open on Sunday, there is no-one to deliver to and that makes it harder to open fully stocked on Monday morning.  They don't deliver fresh produce now over the weekend because it'd be sitting in a storeroom for 36h at least.  So the best time to see the shelves filling up is Monday afternoon.

fluffy2560 wrote:

They don't deliver fresh produce now over the weekend because it'd be sitting in a storeroom for 36h at least.

For the large supermarkets, some produce has been sitting in trucks from abroad for a lot longer. "Fresh" may be relative.

Aside from visiting farmer's markets, using the power of the Internet, some local farm fresh options:

http://www.szatyorbolt.hu (they deliver in Budapest and at pickup points -- site also in English)

http://www.nekedterem.hu (they can deliver to many places in Budapest -- site only in Hungarian)

klsallee wrote:

For the large supermarkets, some produce has been sitting in trucks from abroad for a lot longer. "Fresh" may be relative.

Good point. But knowing vaguely how they stop bananas ripening on ships, maybe the same happens for other fruit and vegetables or there is some similar special technique or magic they are using.

klsallee wrote:

Aside from visiting farmer's markets, using the power of the Internet, some local farm fresh options:

http://www.szatyorbolt.hu (they deliver in Budapest and at pickup points -- site also in English)

http://www.nekedterem.hu (they can deliver to many places in Budapest -- site only in Hungarian)

Good tip but.....not open on Sundays where we started....*groan*....but there's always my own garden which is open 24x7 during the summer.

fluffy2560 wrote:

not open on Sundays where we started....

The Internet is open on Sunday. You can shop online all day Sunday. 

Just won't get delivered until later in the week (due to that no delivery on Sunday rule as well).

I know, I know..... this is a tiny point (so tiny in fact it is barely visible with an scanning tunneling microscope), but lets take what little we can get. 

klsallee wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

not open on Sundays where we started....

The Internet is open on Sunday. You can shop online all day Sunday. 

Just won't get delivered until later in the week (due to that no delivery on Sunday rule as well).

I know, I know..... this is a tiny point (so tiny in fact it is barely visible with an scanning tunneling microscope), but lets take what little we can get. 

Ok, black hole singularity sized point as seen from the other side of the universe noted. 

But of course, to avoid the hassle ordering on a Sunday via all day Internet, one can just visit Aldi or Tescos etc the next day.

Actually, all day Internet is not always possible here. Storms seem to screw it up for hours recently.

And apparently the law requires big stores to close by 10pm on other days, as well? No 24x6 possible?

Tesco makes an announcement starting around 9pm that according to law, they will be closing at 10.

zif wrote:

And apparently the law requires big stores to close by 10pm on other days, as well? No 24x6 possible?

Tesco makes an announcement starting around 9pm that according to law, they will be closing at 10.

Yup, that seems to apply all over - they all shut at 22h.  I think since March, when the law came in, we've used a "small shop" precisely once for some item. All we do now is plan ahead and still visit the likes of Aldi and Tesco etc.

It's not really very sustainable.

fluffy2560 wrote:

I think since March, when the law came in, we've used a "small shop" precisely once for some item. All we do now is plan ahead and still visit the likes of Aldi and Tesco etc.

I personally dislike large retail multinational corporations. I find them typically criminal in a variety of ways. And as an entrepreneur who has started small businesses, I like to support other small businesses.

But (yes, here comes the "but"), over the years I find I can not support many small businesses in Hungary because, in my opinion, I have found too many not only also criminal in their own way but also incompetent.

Some examples:

- Specifically requested "DRY" lumber from a local small business. What was delivered was not dry. It was sappy and clearly just harvested and milled. I had to dry it myself for two years before I could use it. I now only buy lumber from Obi.

- Try to return a defective item to a local small business -- good luck. Often come up with resistance when I try to exercise my "guaranteed" consumer rights. In contrast, could even return a trivial 500 Forint item recently at a large multinational company last week without problems.

- Wife went to a local small store, and saw the owner drop one of those small crescent shaped breads on the floor and put it back into the pile to sell. Needless to say, we never bought crescent bread from them after that (in fact, stopped shopping at that store entirely later for other reasons).

So having to make the hard choice between criminal and incompetent or just criminal, I find myself more and more defaulting to "just criminal".

There are exceptions of course. There is a very good small business where I buy most of my power tools. But that may be just an artifact, as it really is hard to go wrong if you are buying Makita.

i agree with you.
We tried to support small businesses when we first moved to Hungary. Used to own several small businesses ourselves and know all business is needed to make a go of it.
We also have been "screwed"  over so many times here in Hungary by small business, big business too but it didn't seem as personal with the larger shops. just dumb.
Shoe repairs shops, butchers, bars, restaurants, hair salons,auto repairs shops etc. 9 out of 10 times we were done over.
Wonder what they are thinking, guess they do not want repeat business.

klsallee wrote:

- Specifically requested "DRY" lumber from a local small business. What was delivered was not dry. It was sappy and clearly just harvested and milled. I had to dry it myself for two years before I could use it. I now only buy lumber from Obi.

Ah, well now, how many times have I seen that going on.  Construction wood - some people use "green oak" to build impressive buildings but I think that's a real exception.

BTW,  when buying firewood, best to buy a cheap meter (not more than $20 on Amazon) and test the wood before the con artists drop it outside your place.  Same sort of thing, get it at Obi.  You pay more but it burns immediately, not 2 years down the line. 

klsallee wrote:

- Try to return a defective item to a local small business -- good luck. Often come up with resistance when I try to exercise my "guaranteed" consumer rights. In contrast, could even return a trivial 500 Forint item recently at a large multinational company last week without problems.

Aldi take stuff back without a problem but you need to join the "Aldi" club to do it (or so Mrs Fluffy tells me). For really valuable items, I usually buy them in the UK and bring them back in the car. You can also get Amazon to deliver.  In the UK we have fantastically good (compared to HU, DE, NL etc) consumer laws. You can get refunds up to 6 years (yes, I said SIX years) after the purchase if it turns out to be "not fit for purpose".  A lot more work required in Europe to align these kinds of rights.

klsallee wrote:

There are exceptions of course. There is a very good small business where I buy most of my power tools. But that may be just an artifact, as it really is hard to go wrong if you are buying Makita.

oh, I dunno about Makita, Got a good reputation but higher end pricewise. I've got a cupboard full of broken but "good" branded power tools - Black and Decker, Bosch, Hyundai, Panasonic and "no-name".  I mean to fix them all.  Usually it's either the batteries - no replacements available or too expensive to repair or take to pieces to install new cells - or the motors burning out - no spares - or in one case, the gears being stripped internally. Only good for scrap. 

Recently I started buy DeWalt which is considered a top brand and they do seem to be good so far.  They don't skimp on small features like decent vibration control, long power leads, light to hold etc. I have a SDS hammer drill and an angle grinder from DeWalt and I like them both.

On the other hand, I have a "no-name" hammer drill from China which has lasted 3 houses and will probably out last me.

fluffy2560 wrote:

oh, I dunno about Makita, Got a good reputation but higher end pricewise.

Always had personal good experiences with Makita (going on 20 years or more). Professional quality tools. But, yes, as a professional tool it is priced above what is necessary for many casual DIYers.

fluffy2560 wrote:

On the other hand, I have a "no-name" hammer drill from China which has lasted 3 houses and will probably out last me.

I still have pre- turn of the century electronic goods and tools from China that are going strong.

Modern made equivalents seem to fall to dust upon handling.

Marilyn Tassy wrote:

Wonder what they are thinking, guess they do not want repeat business.

They get away with it because, despite it, they still get repeat business.

From 17 years of observations (I will not call it "experience" as I am still trying to figure it out myself) I see this happen a lot:

Have heard Hungarians who complain about being treated badly by a person or business, but then they still do business again with that person or business. And they are then treated badly again, and the cycle continues. Asking why one would do the same behavior and expect a different result, gets replies like "we went to primary school together" or an unspoken fear to act. So IMHO it appears there is little consequence for bad behavior. Or if invoking game theory, one might conclude that the percentage of "cheaters" is higher at equilibrium than in other places. Of course, game theory also assumes that players act rationally.

I know once a business pulls something on us we will not go back.
Tesco did a weird and rude thing with us 10 years ago so we quit them until we had really not much other choice to use them again since they are the closet big store to our flat.
They have behaved since our last bad experience but we did avoid them for 7 or so years.
I had a beef with the BKV and now you can see me walking everywhere if we are not using the car. Even when I was using crutches and a cane I walked instead of using the BKV.
I do carry one ticket with me at all times just in case.
I had a book of 10 tickets years ago for emergency BKV usage, I held onto them so long they expired, another reason to be mad at them , they didn't honor my pre paid tickets.
My husband rarely uses the public transportation and he can now ride for free. He uses it once a week to go to the market and that's about it. Too hard to finding parking so the tram works for him.
I know in the US many shops give you 30 days exchange even without  paperwork  in hand.
Oh well.. we can only boycott and hope others wake up.

klsallee wrote:

....or an unspoken fear to act. So IMHO it appears there is little consequence for bad behavior. Or if invoking game theory, one might conclude that the percentage of "cheaters" is higher at equilibrium than in other places. Of course, game theory also assumes that players act rationally.

Ah, a man with Nash equilibriums in mind....

I think there is a fear to act and bad behaviour is unreasonably rewarded.

I am in a dispute with my neighbour over a missing 40m2 of land which quite clearly - according to the official land registry entry/plan - is on their side of OUR fence (we didn't put the fence there, previous owners did).  I noticed a great deal of resistance from all sides (including Mrs Fluffy) to actually do something about it.  It was although everyone is paralysed by indecision.  I had to "stick the boot in" and up the stakes by initiating a court case to enforce our rights to move the fence. Otherwise everyone will just sit there doing nothing and we'd be no further on - Nash equilibrium.  The other side has decided to ignore all pleadings to resolve both personally and via lawyers letters requiring a signature.  Not very neiighbourly and the folks are taking it personally.  So I need there to be an escalation. I broke the equilibrium - although in reality I didn't change at all.  My response is proportional to the play (or lack of play) on the other side.  I am now expecting the other side to give in or fight back in proportion as I forced them to alter their strategy.

But one thing they do not seem to understand here - and I may be foolish to expect it to be evenly applied in HU - is that rule of law should prevail. Lack of trust in the judicial system probably means many of these kinds of issues do not get resolved properly over many years.

In this case, at the moment, the neighbour is currently rewarded by getting to keep our land and enjoy it to our detriment.

So this is of course, a good example of game theory at work.  It's a tit-for-tat set of moves with proportionality.

I am rooting for you to win your court case, so wrong.
Yes, my HU husband has lived in the US for over 40 years but now that we live in Hungary he often backs down on issues.
Really makes me insane at times, just little things, he says he doesn't need the stress. Of course in his day over here it was communist and it was no fun at all to do anything "official". was best to not draw attention to yourself.
My husband was 19 when he was accused of a minor crime that he did not do and spent 3 months in a jail here in HU before it came to trail, it was thrown out of court but the waiting was very scary for him and torture. He could of sued the state after the case was over with for back pay and damages but he thought it best to just go away.
at the moment we have brand new upstairs neighbors who have been doing a major renovation for the past 4 months. Getting a bit old now, they do not respect  the house rules of no working on Sundays unless it is an emergency.
No one to enforce the rules so why even have them written down.
I have had a few words with my poor husband about being more assertive with these newbies who are already trouble makers.
I am about ready to sell out before the building gets more low class selfish people, a new breed of idiot is around lately.
Going home to the US ( so happy) for a few months time,will see if we enjoy it there more or not before really selling out for good, once I leave Hungary for good I will never be coming back, that I know for a fact.

Marilyn Tassy wrote:

....
Going home to the US ( so happy) for a few months time,will see if we enjoy it there more or not before really selling out for good, once I leave Hungary for good I will never be coming back, that I know for a fact.

Not suprised by that.  If it wasn't for Mrs Fluffy and the Fluffyettes, I'd have already gone long ago.  Before I came back to Hungary (about 5 years ago), we were living in Austria (for 8 years).  Mrs Fluffy and I really do not like the Austrians or their way of life but we stuck it out.  Looking back on it, coming back here was a liberation and we wondered why we waited.  The only places in Europe I enjoyed living in are Germany (2.5 years) and The Netherlands (6 years). 

I guess what I really am saying is that the grass is always greener (at first anyway)...

Well, since this is going off topic anyway, might as well go all in.

fluffy2560 wrote:

I am in a dispute with my neighbour over a missing 40m2 of land which quite clearly - according to the official land registry entry/plan - is on their side of OUR fence

Ah, another person with a property problem. We have four properties. All have had property line "issues". Largest was 90m2 where the neighbor planted (now) 6 meter high ornamental juniper trees on our property (which, being that the property is in a national park are not suppose to be there, so not even the National Park system has the cojones to make a complaint).

fluffy2560 wrote:

taking it personally.

There is a can of worms. People here seem to take a lot personally, especially when confronted when they violate your rights (no one more hurt than someone who is in the wrong it seems). The slightest (sometimes only in their mind) transgression --- they take it personally and not uncommonly out of proportion.

fluffy2560 wrote:

I am now expecting the other side to give in or fight back in proportion

Or become spiteful and vindictive.

The Nash equilibrium, as I mentioned above, assumes the actors act rationally.

Possession if 9/10th the law. Here is seems people see it as 99/100th the law. Once the have it, they seem to fight for it. Right or wrong. To irrational extremes. I have found I can not expect people here to act rationally. People quickly take issues personal and emotional.

Have had property stakes we paid to have put in by a surveyor ripped out, and the neighbor deny removing them (because we all know there are lions, tigers and bears that roam the neighborhood removing survey stakes, oh my).  Have had neighbors tell us "I am going to tell you how it is, then there will be no more discussion".

With the first property line problem came up my wife scanned online what other people in Hungary did who experienced this issue. She came across a couple who were building a fence around their property (on their property line -- they had it surveyed and did everything right) and their neighbor became indignant and parked cars crossing the property line (so using this couple's land to park their cars) and refused to move the cars. The couple could not finish their fence. And they asked an online community for help and advice. And the almost overwhelming response from those who commented were in favor and in support of.... the neighbors who parked the cars.    I kid you not.  When it comes to property lines in Hungary, it gets really weird, really fast.

We have had other parties file a police report against us, full of false claims, when we asserted our rights here. The police actually investigated and completely 100% cleared us. We only found out about this during a later court appearance. I was shocked that the police did not charge the other party with making a false police report (as would happen in the US for example), but then I was told that the police will not do anything unless someone files a complaint (i.e. us). Seriously.

fluffy2560 wrote:

But one thing they do not seem to understand here - and I may be foolish to expect it to be evenly applied in HU - is that rule of law should prevail.

One can hope. But don't count on it.

We have an a long ongoing legal dispute (see above). And despite the other party making false claims against us (above is just one example -- there are others), we lost the first court case. One reason claimed by the judge was we brought no new evidence ..... yet in the official court transcript it lists.... yep -- our new evidence.   

Just one example of the weirdness of that judgment.

Preparing our appeal. But given the (ill)logic of that first judgment, I do not have high expectations. And even if we win, we loose, because even if I get my tangible damage and court costs paid I will still come out behind as I will never get paid for the intangible damage as I can not sue and be fully compensated for my "pain and suffering" here. And that is why I understand why people give up on the courts here since they really are a loose-loose scenario for many (except the lawyers -- they are always paid  ).

Would love to hear how your court case goes. Maybe we just have bad judicial Karma. 

Marilyn Tassy wrote:

I have had a few words with my poor husband about being more assertive with these newbies who are already trouble makers.

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." ~ Edmund Burke

(Often quoted as simply "evil prospers when good does nothing").

Hi everybody,

We are getting off topic here
Maybe you should consider opening a new thread on the Budapest forum in order to launch a topic on an another subject?

Thanks,

Priscilla

Yes, perhaps we should have one on property and one on legal disputes.