Laws pertaining to marrying a second wife

Your response simplifies and makes the question seem vain.
It is not a matter of vanity, but rather safety.

If there are not very specific standards as to what support means then men can easily manipulate and misinterpret their responsibilities.

In the case of this specific person who is has implied he was married to someone in USA where polygamy is illegal.  When marrying him, his wife knowing USA laws may have never expected this to be a demand her husband may have.

Further more he married an American and Morocco woman so how is equal/ or fair being defined?  It costs more to live in the USA and standards of living are higher in the USA.  So the one living in the USA will get the same amount of financial support to live on as the one living in Morocco?

So if one wife has more children do they both get 1 loaf of bread to share with their children?

Or does the USA wife now have to live in poverty because he husband has determined she needs to sustain herself based on ancient dated standards spelled out in a religious text?

Equal and equitable are not the same thing. 

Also why should a husband be able to decide how much his wife should have?

What if the man obtained the additional marriage without the consent of the previous wife/wives?  Should a woman have no meaningful and legal say over her own future?  The more people in the family the less each one gets to live on.

Again this is a perfect example of why every woman should always have her own income and means of supporting herself.  If she does not she and her children are at the mercy of her husband.  Money equals power and if you have none you may get trapped in a situation where you and your children are being taken advance of, mistreat or neglected and you will have a much harder way out of the situation.

Education is the best personal investment I have ever made in my life.  Thank god I was born a women in a developed country in the right place and time so I KNOW accepting a status as a 2nd class citizen anywhere is a bad deal.

urbanshopping101 wrote:

Your response simplifies and makes the question seem vain.
It is not a matter of vanity, but rather safety.

If there are not very specific standards as to what support means then men can easily manipulate and misinterpret their responsibilities.

In the case of this specific person who is has implied he was married to someone in USA where polygamy is illegal.  When marrying him, his wife knowing USA laws may have never expected this to be a demand her husband may have.

Further more he married an American and Morocco woman so how is equal/ or fair being defined?  It costs more to live in the USA and standards of living are higher in the USA.  So the one living in the USA will get the same amount of financial support to live on as the one living in Morocco?

So if one wife has more children do they both get 1 loaf of bread to share with their children?

Or does the USA wife now have to live in poverty because he husband has determined she needs to sustain herself based on ancient dated standards spelled out in a religious text?

Equal and equitable are not the same thing. 

Also why should a husband be able to decide how much his wife should have?

What if the man obtained the additional marriage without the consent of the previous wife/wives?  Should a woman have no meaningful and legal say over her own future?  The more people in the family the less each one gets to live on.

Again this is a perfect example of why every woman should always have her own income and means of supporting herself.  If she does not she and her children are at the mercy of her husband.  Money equals power and if you have none you may get trapped in a situation where you and your children are being taken advance of, mistreat or neglected and you will have a much harder way out of the situation.

Education is the best personal investment I have ever made in my life.  Thank god I was born a women in a developed country in the right place and time so I KNOW accepting a status as a 2nd class citizen anywhere is a bad deal.

Well in the past a lot more men had more than one wife than they do now. Times have changed a lot. In the past say if a man had a large herd of goats then he would know he had the means for more than one wife and treating them equally with regards to the financial/providing access wouldn’t be too complicated. As you pointed out Morocco and USA have different systems, different economic standards.

But my opinion is, most men or women talking about 2nd wife fit in to to situations. Situation 1 the man doesn’t have much control over himself and is controlled by his desires. Throwing rational thought out the window to get another woman when he couldn’t even take care of the first woman. Situation 2 is similar in that the man couldn’t make his marriage a successful one but is deep down knows it’s not fair on the woman to divorce her/move on. He blames her for the marriage not working (I believe the man has this responsibility to make the marriage work) and thinks taking a second wife will be a transition from bad wife to good wife but not taking to much of a risk in case the grass isn’t greener on the other side. Yes their are exceptions to these two situations. a man who is going to take a second wife, has considered the effect on his first wife and is not from these two situations would probably not be talking about what to do and nor would his first wife - it wouldn’t be a unworkable idea that you would expect to go wrong/have lots of problems.

I think I simplified and made light my response because I never take these 2nd wife debates seriously. Muslim men always joke about when you are getting a second wife, I’m talking about people who a serious in their religion, and they joke because we know we can’t do it. Life is fast now. We don’t have time. We are married to the internet and the tv. And women’s shoes are expensive

I get when the talk is playful/ humorous.  As I am married to a man that came from a polygamous family and have been playfully reminded for 15 years about the "up to 4 wife option that Islam permits" and I have gladly responded that can not really be possible as you have yet to master how to support 1 wife.  This comment is not even meant to be insulting ... it is a reality in many places.

We are not living in the times that these religious guidelines were created.  In many places in the world women can work and can earn as much or more then a man.  So there really is no specific need to help a woman out by taking her as your extra wife so she does not parish.  In that situation I can understand that act of polygamous marriages.  But now ... it just seems greedy, irresponsible and/ or an abuse of power.

Polygamous families in Morocco are not that common any more.  My father-in-law had 8 sons and NONE of them to date had taken a 2nd wife.

I also wonder in part how a man in one part of the world accidently stumbled in to a women from another part of the world he wanted to take on as a 2nd wife?  How would he have the opportunity to "fall in love with her".  The situation sounds rather adulterous considering I though devout Muslim men don't spend their recreational time associated with women, especially that they are not related to.

Seems like the situation is a perfect example for how someone can hide behind supposed religious entitlement to justify adulterous desires.  It probably would have been more honest to seek a divorce or have the discussion with his wife before starting to shop for a new one.

The range of interpretation of religious laws is highly varied.
I have a great example in my city.
You have one Imam caught helping men without their wives consent to take 2nd wives and breaking Canadians laws casually because he feels he has the god given right to do so because he is Muslim.
And you have other Imam's in Canada opening denoucing what he is doing and saying if someone wants to follow poloygamy they need to go live in a country that permits it.
Same faith very different views.
A persistent person can always find away to twist things to support this desires.

urbanshopping101 wrote:

I get when the talk is playful/ humorous.  As I am married to a man that came from a polygamous family and have been playfully reminded for 15 years about the "up to 4 wife option that Islam permits" and I have gladly responded that can not really be possible as you have yet to master how to support 1 wife.  This comment is not even meant to be insulting ... it is a reality in many places.

We are not living in the times that these religious guidelines were created.  In many places in the world women can work and can earn as much or more then a man.  So there really is no specific need to help a woman out by taking her as your extra wife so she does not parish.  In that situation I can understand that act of polygamous marriages.  But now ... it just seems greedy, irresponsible and/ or an abuse of power.

**The religious guidelines, as what is stated in the Quran and Hadith,  is for all times. You have to understand everything in context, not just selected verses about being able to marry 2, 3 or 4 wife’s. Yes women can financially provide for themselves but a woman needs a man for her emotional well-being. Also I would say a woman needs to have children and be a family. Look at women who have never married and children, it’s not a nice life for them, especially as they get old. Women are not created to be independent loners. You will find there are a lot more practicing Muslim women than their are practicing Muslim men so there is an actual need. Lots of Muslim women who can’t find a practicing Muslim man with means to marry.

Polygamous families in Morocco are not that common any more.  My father-in-law had 8 sons and NONE of them to date had taken a 2nd wife.

**Morocco is absutley full of people wanting to get married but conditions are not good. Few jobs. Most can’t even get the first marriage but nobody is willing to marry without big wedding, house, job, dowry etc.

I also wonder in part how a man in one part of the world accidently stumbled in to a women from another part of the world he wanted to take on as a 2nd wife?  How would he have the opportunity to "fall in love with her".  The situation sounds rather adulterous considering I though devout Muslim men don't spend their recreational time associated with women, especially that they are not related to.

***if a man is successful financially in a western country it’s not going to be difficult to afford a wife in a country like Morocco. Love between husband and wife is something given from Allah. Anything before in a boyfriend girlfriend situation is something different, like lust or infactuation. Men are allowed to marry women and this will involve some contact. They are not allowed to marry women they are related to as you surgest when contact is allowed

Seems like the situation is a perfect example for how someone can hide behind supposed religious entitlement to justify adulterous desires.  It probably would have been more honest to seek a divorce or have the discussion with his wife before starting to shop for a new one.

*** the whole point of getting married is to avoid adultery. If you don’t want to be a practicing Muslim that’s your choice but no need to hate on those who do

The range of interpretation of religious laws is highly varied.
I have a great example in my city.
You have one Imam caught helping men without their wives consent to take 2nd wives and breaking Canadians laws casually because he feels he has the god given right to do so because he is Muslim.
And you have other Imam's in Canada opening denoucing what he is doing and saying if someone wants to follow poloygamy they need to go live in a country that permits it.
Same faith very different views.
A persistent person can always find away to twist things to support this desires.

***I don’t know too much about Canadian law but I’m pretty sure men can marry men and women can marry women their according to their laws so it’s pretty outrageous that a man can’t have two wife’s if he wants. Also you don’t need your wife’s consent to take a second wife in Islam and you are right it is a God given right to marry 1,2,3 or 4 women given to Muslim men.

I’m starting to think your husband is wanting to take a second wife and it’s rocked your feminism

In regards to the Canada context:

By Canadian Law same sex marriage is permit.
This is by Canadian law and those who wish to live in Canada without facing criminal charges have to follow.
We live in a Democratic country and the majority of Canadian's as do I support the right for people to entre in to same sex marriages.

If the majority of Canadian's support polygamy and voted in favour of allowing same sex couples to be married then that majority have spoken and the law has past.

If someone wants to advocate for the right to have Polygamy legally allowed in Canada, they have the right to do so, but until the majority of the country is in favour of supporting this and the law is changed it is illegal and criminally punishable.

If someone does not want to follow the laws of a country especially in a country like Canada they are not being forced to stay.  Every person born in this country or with landed immigrant
status is entitled to a Canadian passport and as long as they afford the ticket they can fly off to a wide range of places.  No one unless in jail for violating laws is forced to stay here.

In Canada people do have the right to practice the faith of their choice or no faith, but under Canadian law practice of one's faith or belief system can't infringe on the rights of other people.

This is put in place to protect everyone and it is regularly enforced.

Your comments to the effect of women not being meant to live in isolation are a bit out there for a few reasons.
1. The same sentiment can be applied to men and women.
2. Women and men can and actually do have families without a husband or wife.  This happens across the world.  You definition of family is not very inclusive of the reality that family does not mean mother, father and children.  It is a very fluid term.  Men or women that are not married and have not had their own children can be part of families.  They can still be aunts, uncles, daughters, sons, cousins, great aunts, uncles or have very close circles of friends that take on the same functions as families.  The traditionalist views of family are very dated.

Yup I am a feminist.  I am female... why would I don't be in support of ideologies that protect my rights to freedom and equality.  It is kinds of a no brainer : )! 

I am a pretty direct person and not a needy person.  I have stated from the start knowing my husband was a from a polygamist family that is nothing I would every accept.  As a direct person I have also stated if my husband ever wanted a divorce lets just do it and move on with our lives respectively.  As a women with my own means of supporting myself I have and can utilize my "choice" to end my marriage is the situation is not longer desirable for me.  The terms were stated very clearly.  Sadly there are many women unlike myself of MANY different faiths that do not have this option.  There are many faiths that have features that can be used to enforce social oppression and unfavorable conditions on women.  I have never been scared to loose the love of another person and life has shown me time and time again when one door closes many other pop open.

I find your comments regarding women problematic because they could be potentially interpreted as women who find Islam an appealing faith are those more likely to "fear" being let out of a family structure or fear isolation.  Which then could be suggest that they are weaker or less capable women.  I also want to mention that actually the same reasoning that you have indirectly applied why women might turn to Islam ( or any other faith) is the same for men.  I don't 100% agree or disagree with this.  Also please note I am suggesting Islam is better or worse than any other faith.

Are views may be very different and we are both entitled to them.  I respect that you are honest enough to share your views and don't have any negative intentions.  Thought provoking.

Morocco are following Malki school in marriage .  So it’s okey to marry second and third and four as long as u can provide that you are able to just btween them and have the abitly yo support them all , but lately and with the feminst that’s going in morocco women successed to reinfoce that if you want to marry second one you have a paper permission from ur first wife that she is agree about this marriage !! ( which believe me you will never ever get it from a moroccan wife no matter what you giver her ... cuz her condition will be divorce lol .

Notice : i am against polygamy cuz all islamist schoolar underatand it wrong .

urbanshopping101 wrote:

I.

You are right some people are still living with Mentality of  the 7th century

Goldkhalifa wrote:

Also you don’t need your wife’s consent to take a second wife in Islam and you are right it is a God given right to marry 1,2,3 or 4 women given to Muslim men.

You know very well that a man needs the consent of his first wife and he can only marry a second (or more) under exceptional circumstances.

You sound like that women have no rights at all.

I really wonder if the root cause of the need for someone to want to take a 2nd, 3rd or 4th wife should be analyzed before it is approved.

How many wives would it take a man to possibly figure out he was difficult or just not a good at being a husband lol.

It is the same thing I wonder about men and women that continually move from one marriage to the next.  If you get divorced twice you REALLY need to stop and assess why you are having problems being married before you move on to the next partner.

In general though I think women especially if they are not Muslim need to really talk about Polygamy before marrying a Muslim man and in some cases maybe have a legal agreement made in advance so there is no debating what terms were agreed on before entering the marriage.

Sadly time and time again I see religious laws manipulated to place women in unfavorable positions all over the world.

Not to pick on anyone ... but in reality numerous people can read the same things and interpret them differently.  That is why it is beneficial to have more specific terms regarding these issues.

Again like in my city how does one Imam help men obtain a 2nd wife knowing that the 1st is not aware of this and it is illegal in Canada and other Imams seem furious that the other Imam has being doing this.  Both are qualified Imam's.  How would the average Muslim know who to agree with?

For me this is a perfect example of the need for personal accountability in life.
If you make no effort to be aware of the actual information and just accept someone else's interpretation this can be problematic and you fall victim of being mislead.

There are lots people in the world in pursuit of being a good person that due to lack of personal accountability end up blindly following other people down bad paths.

Primadonna wrote:

Goldkhalifa wrote:

Also you don’t need your wife’s consent to take a second wife in Islam and you are right it is a God given right to marry 1,2,3 or 4 women given to Muslim men.

You know very well that a man needs the consent of his first wife and he can only marry a second (or more) under exceptional circumstances.

You sound like that women have no rights at all.

No actually you are wrong, a man doesn’t need the first wife’s consent in ISLAM, you must be confused with MOROCANN law. Exceptional circumstances? What are you on about?

I sound like that women have no rights at all? That doesn’t even make sense but I can work out what you are trying to say. You sound like you haven’t read the whole post and all my comments or you’re just another isamaphobe jumping on the bandwagon with nothing to add.

urbanshopping101 wrote:

Not to pick on anyone ... but in reality numerous people can read the same things and interpret them differently.  That is why it is beneficial to have more specific terms regarding these issues.

Again like in my city how does one Imam help men obtain a 2nd wife knowing that the 1st is not aware of this and it is illegal in Canada and other Imams seem furious that the other Imam has being doing this.  Both are qualified Imam's.  How would the average Muslim know who to agree with?

For me this is a perfect example of the need for personal accountability in life.
If you make no effort to be aware of the actual information and just accept someone else's interpretation this can be problematic and you fall victim of being mislead.

There are lots people in the world in pursuit of being a good person that due to lack of personal accountability end up blindly following other people down bad paths.

Yes good point, that’s why you have to follow the Quran and Sunnah on the understanding of the first generations. You have to seek knowledge and follow the evidence. An Imam is someone that leads the prayer, he may not be very knowledgable. If people are sincere I’m sure Allah will guide them to what’s good

I am curious as to why you want to use the term Islamophobe in the context of this discussion?

Is there no room is Islam to dicussion or debate?

I often notice this type of reaction when religious people or anyone with a really strong belief in something resorts too when other people present an idea or view that challanges their stance on a topic.

Hearing a different or opposing position gives someone the opportunity to further explore their own views, which may help further validate their opinions or give them reason to further explore the topic.

Also time and time again I notice some really puzzling reactions from men regarding someone identifying as a feminist.  It really makes me wonder what kind of interpretations of what it means to be a feminist a person may have.  If someone freaks or suddenly turns there back on someone when they hear that someone is a feminist that might want to self reflect on why that is?  They may even want to consider looking up the term by literal context and then consider what possible stereotypes they may have about the term.

This is the challenge anyone has to overcome if they want to live peacefully in a world with other people.

Hating of Muslims or specific religious groups is not okay, but hating om people of other sexual orientations or political views is okay.  The world can't work harmoniously when people have outlooks like that.

I can get that to some extend, but even good people can do bad things and make mistakes.
You can't really put all that on god.

So general question what are the qualification to be an Imam?

Being able to read and recite something does not mean you are able to interpret it.

There are people who are literalists and there are people who are critical thinkers.

In many cases when people following things literally it can be problematic.

Again please note I am not Muslim and I am not trying to pick of Islam.  I have the same level of questioning towards any religious, social or political view I have come across, including the same faith I was brought up in.  In fact learning about other religious, political and social view points has made help me more objective about the principles and values taught by that faith I was born in to.

urbanshopping101 wrote:

I am curious as to why you want to use the term Islamophobe in the context of this discussion?

Is there no room is Islam to dicussion or debate?

I often notice this type of reaction when religious people or anyone with a really strong belief in something resorts too when other people present an idea or view that challanges their stance on a topic.

Hearing a different or opposing position gives someone the opportunity to further explore their own views, which may help further validate their opinions or give them reason to further explore the topic.

Also time and time again I notice some really puzzling reactions from men regarding someone identifying as a feminist.  It really makes me wonder what kind of interpretations of what it means to be a feminist a person may have.  If someone freaks or suddenly turns there back on someone when they hear that someone is a feminist that might want to self reflect on why that is?  They may even want to consider looking up the term by literal context and then consider what possible stereotypes they may have about the term.

This is the challenge anyone has to overcome if they want to live peacefully in a world with other people.

Hating of Muslims or specific religious groups is not okay, but hating om people of other sexual orientations or political views is okay.  The world can't work harmoniously when people have outlooks like that.

The guys comment about me sounding like women have no rights at all, this is a typical islamaphobic comment. It’s completely out of context to what I said as I addressed my opinions on why I think most men want a 2nd wife. From that it’s clear that I don’t think it is usually I good idea for the woman to get mixed up in this. I never mentioned anything about women’s rights, the whole topic is about mans right to have more than one wife.

So you understand I don’t hate any religious group. I see one as being correct of course. Actually I don’t hate gay people either. What people do is there business, I’m more concerned about myself and what’s going to happen to me. There is no sin after disbelief so I have no reason to hate individuals for being gay. That doesn’t mean I agree with it, I think it is completly wrong and totally against way of life we was created for. It’s a big evil. I don’t hate people, if they have an affliction or something I don’t like I just be thankful I don’t have that. Not agreeing with something is very different to hating people. I live in England, I can’t think of anyone I hate and I know people from all walks of life. Feeling sorry for people is my response when I see people who don’t have the light of Islam in them is my response and should be every Muslims response. Islam doesn’t teach people to hate. But that doesn’t mean I’m going to let people come at me with the ‘Islam and women’s rights’ rubbish. People don’t understand that having rights means nothing if you haven’t got safety and security in place first, look at how Islam Protec’s women first

Fair enough.
Please note at least on my part I never assume you literally meant that women did not have rights or were being misogynistic either.  But what you wrote could be twisted or misinterpreted to suggest that.  I am well aware that sometimes the way we write something does not always accurately explain our views on a complicated issues or topic.  The same could be said regarding what I have written regarding women's rights and Islam.  I can not objective say I think Islam or any other religion and its followers are bad or completely wrong.  But I am glad that I may have indirectly got you to spell out your thoughts on a topic like same sex marriages and homosexuality.  It pretty much reflect the attitude you do have to have to live peacefully in a society with diverse religious, political and social views.  I think it is important for those views to be openly shared as otherwise people are more likely to assume the worst.

Please note I am married to a practicing Muslim who describes himself as religious.  So I have the opportunity to see Islam from a very different perspective then the average person who is not Muslim and have had a lot more interactions with people from the Muslim community then the average person who is not Muslim.

The entire how Islam or any faith protects women debate is another complicated one.  I don't think any religion can really make me believe they that successful excelled at this unless we are comparing the status of women to animals or non living objects.  No need to debate that topic in this forum thread : )!

Goldkhalifa wrote:

Primadonna wrote:

Goldkhalifa wrote:

Also you don’t need your wife’s consent to take a second wife in Islam and you are right it is a God given right to marry 1,2,3 or 4 women given to Muslim men.

You know very well that a man needs the consent of his first wife and he can only marry a second (or more) under exceptional circumstances.

You sound like that women have no rights at all.

No actually you are wrong, a man doesn’t need the first wife’s consent in ISLAM, you must be confused with MOROCANN law. Exceptional circumstances? What are you on about?

I sound like that women have no rights at all? That doesn’t even make sense but I can work out what you are trying to say. You sound like you haven’t read the whole post and all my comments or you’re just another isamaphobe jumping on the bandwagon with nothing to add.

Excuse me??????
You make me laugh that you accusing me as a islamophobic person. I am married to a Muslim 22 years and live 14 years in an Islamic country.
Don't tell me I don't know anything.

I follow this thread since the beginning and it goes totally the wrong way.  I like some good discussion but if you get personal or you spread untruths than maybe I should ask the moderator to close down this thread.

I like feminsit when they defence themsleves and have strong view and not believe what men ( imam , scholars) said, not like some stupid arab women believe anything from them . I am i muslim And i know some people still use of what the wahabizam taught them through the mosque in europe or through their imams who studied in saudia arabia ,

I believe that all religions contempt women and untill now women are contempted in arab world as an example in dressing;  woman dress black dress in desert where the temperature in sunmer is abouve 50• . She doesnt even have right to change the color of it .
And some imam still believe that woman the only place that should be the house not to go towork ( so how can u take an opinion from such man who think like that ).

Well and what u will never understand that men can marry christain or jweish but for women she only can marry muslim .

Alot of example but the worst of it if woman put prefume and went of outside and man smell her prefume than that woman is considered as a prostutue and Whore

I respect all woman who defend her right whatever it was cuz the law that muslim scholars bring and make it as it was from
Allah its a thinking belongs to 7th century where patriarchal society was dominated

Primadonna wrote:

Goldkhalifa wrote:

Primadonna wrote:

You know very well that a man needs the consent of his first wife and he can only marry a second (or more) under exceptional circumstances.

You sound like that women have no rights at all.

No actually you are wrong, a man doesn’t need the first wife’s consent in ISLAM, you must be confused with MOROCANN law. Exceptional circumstances? What are you on about?

I sound like that women have no rights at all? That doesn’t even make sense but I can work out what you are trying to say. You sound like you haven’t read the whole post and all my comments or you’re just another isamaphobe jumping on the bandwagon with nothing to add.

Excuse me??????
You make me laugh that you accusing me as a islamophobic person. I am married to a Muslim 22 years and live 14 years in an Islamic country.
Don't tell me I don't know anything.

I follow this thread since the beginning and it goes totally the wrong way.  I like some good discussion but if you get personal or you spread untruths than maybe I should ask the moderator to close down this thread.

What a prat

You don’t like something said so you want the moderator to close the down thread

You are excused, you may go now

-thread temporarily closed-