Security of Tenure in Thailand

Thanks, Jim
I am 70 from Australia.      You have changed my thoughts greatly. I was hoping there were no negatives, you have shown problems that I needed answers to.

Thank you for this leading up to your departure, could I ask where are you heading.

Regards Barry

Here are my thoughts based on my experiences and understanding of the situation in Thailand.

There is a path to permanent residency and then citizenship, but I do not think it is available to people on a retirement visa. 

Retirement visas were created for people to retire in Thailand, not to work.  You can work legally in Thailand, all you need is the right visa and a work permit. 

Generally, you can do volunteer work without a problem.  If you were to provide free English lessons to local kids, your efforts will be appreciated rather than punished.  The immigration police are not the bad bogeymen that some people try to portray them as.  What you can't do is to do something that is like having a job.  I do a lot of volunteer work and I only ever receive thanks for my efforts. 

Thailand does make it harder for foreigners to stay and I can understand some of the reasons behind this.  In Australia, it is far to easy for foreigners to get into the country, get residency and then citizenship and they can do this on benefits in many cases.  It has totally changed the Australia that I knew as a child.

https://www.justlanded.com/english/Thailand/Culture
You can apply for a Thai residence permit if:

You need the citizenship for business or employment reasons
You need permanent residency for investment purposes (min. 3 - 10 Mil. Baht investment in Thailand)
You are an expert or an academic doing research
You are supporting your spouse or children who are Thai citizens or you are dependant on a Thai citizen
You are accompanying a family member who has a residency permit
You are retired in Thailand (and will likely stay in Thailand permanently)

The Thai Immigration Department has a quota for all expatriates applying for residence permits. Only 100 people per nationality can apply, and in some years you can only apply for a residency during three months of the year. Permanent residency is mandatory if you want to apply for Thai citizenship.
You can file an application to become a Thai naturalized citizen after holding Permanent Resident status in Thailand for 10 consecutive years.

I'm certain of reading that some application fees are non-refundable if your submission is not granted.
The Non-OA retirement visa costs 1900 Baht on renewal & you must hold 800,000 Baht in a Thai bank account at zero interest for 3 months prior to extension of visa, yet another impost. They love your money.

However I do agree with the statement that Australian/ New Zealand Citizenship is far too lax.

Hi Barry
Don't be put off by my comments- Thai life can be most enjoyable, it is the bureaucracy that can be so infuriating.
Going back to Australia- I miss both family, the sun, sand, ocean, sea breezes, and dozens of things missing here in Chiang Rai. Age becomes a problem- If I were 20 years younger & had the funds things wouldn't bother me as much.
I never applied for an Aussie pension for a number of misinformed reasons but will do so on return. People who get it here tell me it is reduced by 30% to account for the low cost of living.

Of course I know you can work in Thailand- but not at my age, legally. You are mistaken about volunteer work--

http://tastythailand.com/volunteering-i … rk-permit/

While it might seem it should be an easy thing to do – work for free to help people less fortunate than yourself – the Thai government doesn’t make it simple. Doing any kind of volunteer work in Thailand, whether for a day or a year, requires you to submit specific documentation to be issued the appropriate travel visa to be allowed into the country. Once in, you must then apply for a work permit as, yes, every volunteer position in Thailand requires a foreigner to have a work permit. Even though you’re not getting paid.

Some things I forgot-
There is NO consistency in the way Immigration officials make decisions- it depends on the individual officer. Also it varies greatly from region to region.
To quote Thai law, 'Final decision is at the discretion of the Immigration officer'- and I have experienced both good & bad cases. Mostly good, I have to say. Look on any forum and you will see the same opinions... it can be a lottery.

Always be prepared to wait 3 hours or more proceeding through the dense forest of routines for some things.
Taking the Thai driving test [because my Euro/UK & Australian licenses had lapsed] meant 5 hours watching a 35 minute video for me; & others have reported the same.
That's BEFORE you sit the electronic test, then the actual drive, which is not done on public roads. Crazy!

If you take up a volunteer position then you may need a work permit, but if you are inviting local kids over to your place to talk with them in English on a regular basis and help them to improve their grammar and pronunciation at the same time, I really can't see it being a problem. 

In a similar way, communities often create projects to help clean things up or to re-vegetate  areas of forest and everyone is welcome to help.  The locals appreciate that foreigners are willing to help and you get a lot of respect if you do this a few times. 

You can also become a tourist police volunteer and the RTP don't issue work permits for this, so go figure.

pferdy62 wrote:

If you take up a volunteer position then you may need a work permit, but if you are inviting local kids over to your place to talk with them in English on a regular basis and help them to improve their grammar and pronunciation at the same time, I really can't see it being a problem. 

In a similar way, communities often create projects to help clean things up or to re-vegetate  areas of forest and everyone is welcome to help.  The locals appreciate that foreigners are willing to help and you get a lot of respect if you do this a few times. 

You can also become a tourist police volunteer and the RTP don't issue work permits for this, so go figure.

Many Thais have scant regard for their environment, will dump trash anywhere. I took it upon myself to clean up my area, which was utterly disgusting, garbage piles & rats all over. We have no official trash points here in Chiang Rai, though the central city is clean & tidy. 

Bought and begged hundreds of garbage bags, 2 shovels, big rake, stone chippings, concrete blocks & even a small pickup for disposal. Spent months on local projects, people were very happy & helpful & best of all, began to bag their trash & leave it at street corners where a garbage truck made collections.

So, all went well until I made a mistake in salvaging small concrete slabs from a large roadside dump full of smashed concrete things I now know were 'spirit houses'. Some local girls shouted at me & it transpired you are not allowed to touch or move any 'Buddha' relics, broken or not. After that I became wary in case a police report was made [which sometimes happens, as Thais can feel insulted by such behavior], so stopped all my cleanup activities. One or two people didn't approve of me, possibly 'interfering farang'?

Never knew of the Tourist Police option but too late, I will be gone in 3 weeks. Probably too old anyway!

I really don’t recognize your version of Chiang Rai.  We have garbage collection once a week and a local dump while being located far from the city center in a small village.

How can you end up blaming Thais because you did something stupid and messed with their spirt houses?  Quitting something because you did something wrong and offended one or two people seems a bit extreme.  That is like quitting a forum because you don’t like one poster and can’t get him removed.

I fully support your decision to leave Thailand.

So, you don't live in CR city but in a small village; lucky you. Many people in villages report what you say, that rubbish collection is good- it is not so in the outer areas of CR city but you wouldn't know that. I saw the same disgusting mess in Pattaya & Jomtien when I lived there so it's not unusual. I put in more work, time & money to a worthwhile cause than you have ever done, I'll bet.

Why is it 'stupid' when I didn't know what a 'spirit house' was? To any sane person it was a junkyard for smashed concrete. WHY do Thais throw out the 'old' houses when they move in? Why not keep them to put their own figurines in? They are supposed to relocate them to a suitable holy place like a temple or land set aside for them-yeh, right!

I did not quit my activities on this issue alone; it continued for some time but was a losing cause because the cleaned areas slowly went back to dumping grounds, in some cases. Besides, the physical effort became too exhausting.

You can remain as blind to the less nice aspects of Thailand as you wish- they exist, despite your willful disregard.  As for you 'supporting' me leaving Thailand, I don't need or want your 'support'. There are other, more important reasons; there's no doubt I will miss many things about Thai lifestyle, & my destination has some drawbacks, too- which unlike you, I can freely admit.

I question how anyone could live in Thailand and not know about spirit houses.   

Sure there are dirty slum like places but why choose to live there?  Any sane person would be more selective about where they chose to live if the environment was important to them.  I see moving into a filthy environment as blind and willful disregard for the facts before you. 

I also question how a “losing cause” can be seen as a “worthwhile cause” and how you can both brag and complain about the work, time and money you put into it?

****

Is this one of those look at me threads again.

OK, I'm becoming confused (again). I'm wondering what the original purpose of this forum's post was aimed at? Why all of the negative pictures, eh? How did JjF manage to pass up on a pension from his homeland (not Thailand) for 7 plus years due to some misinformed information? Without any source of income, how has JjF managed to survive for this long in Thailand? How and why did JjF manage to quit volunteer public service work in world-famous Chiang Rai because some local girls protested his moving sacred stones? For what purpose and to where were parts of this rubble of sacred artifacts being moved? Methinks that JjF, the one from Coventry England and now Australia will be returning to his home Down Under with a chip off the old block on his shoulder. 
     
Dear JjF: I wish you God's Speed on your trip back to your original home. And as for your memories of your host country for these past years (seven?), please also take along with you the memories of the goodness and positiveness, of the wonderful arts, crafts, people, friendship, food, dress, and traditions. Take with you the really good memories that will bring a smile to your face and unconditional love, solace and comfort to yourself before you sleep at night. Wake up refreshed and feeling younger in all ways.
     
Sadly, for all of us, garbage heaps are everywhere in this weary old world of ours. Perhaps, for a sense of purpose and the good that I hope and believe you do wish to convey, might I offer you some informed advice -- Go for it big time. Hit it at the corporate level. Join one of the World Environment Movement groups when you get back to your native country. You will feel so good and you will undoubtedly meet many wonderful people. I've been there. Go for it, bro. Wishing you all the very best. Peace!   dcb

Some corrections are in order:

1. It is incorrect that foreigners can never achieve permanent residency or Thai nationality. There are quotas by nationality for that, and requirements ie. having contributed taxes, and charitable donations based on consecutive non B (work) visas
2.Land ownership correct, but you CAN own property on a freehold basis for condominiums both horizontally (villa types connected by walls) or traditional, vertically built condos. You CAN own a house, but not the land underneath it.
3. Not sure what this refers to, but if you mean a shared condo purchase with both names in the title, then selling the property without the partners permission is punishable under Thai law.
4. That only goes for very serious cases, and you can make arrangements to dispose of your assets beforehand.
5. Under Thai law, work is work, paid or otherwise
5. (You numbered different subjects with the same number .5. ) Anyway, that  is the law of the land, and also exists in Cambodia, Malaysia
6. It is what it is, its no shock surprises if you do your home work before coming here. Thailand is a developing country, not dissimilar in many ways to some other regional nations.

Overall, nowhere is perfect, do weigh up the pros vis-a-vis the cons is my 10 cents worth.

Hello there
Agree with you on certain comments other are out of context. It appears there are ways around the residency issue and you can get a 5 year residence permit if you invested a minimum of 3million baht and have been living in Thailand for the past 5 years but not all immigration offices offer that option
In south east asia is Thailand the only country with the land ownership issue? this is a big turn OFF as I don't want to be depending on a Thai partner and.or company holding 51% of the tittle and with the possibility of selling the property without me knowing, fake documents, fake property title appear to be very common in Thailand, it was my understanding that ONLY communist type government countries would not allowed people and/or foreigners to own land on such countries, Thailand being a more liberal open minded western thinking/acting (forget the fake smiles..lol) looking for foreign investment allowing owning property should be common sense, but again, common sense in thailand is not on their vocabulary

The 51% rule makes sense. Why was this law passed in the first place? Is it possible that Thailand might have been bullied and bulldozed under ages ago? On another note, some subjective remarks in this forum are bordering on the ridiculous. Peace.   dcb

I am simply repeating a comment that I heard.

Thailand as a nation made a smart move when they limited ownership of land only to nationals. Seemingly that would be to prevent non national ownership of existing land. Looking at the way that the Chinese are trying to buy land anywhere it makes sense to limit land ownership of non nationals. As an individual I would not like that, but as a national I would appreciate the concept.

The idea of Thai's protecting their  property rights does make sense. The idea that outsiders can't participate is a bit disarming.