Entering Hungary from the USA

John523 wrote:

Hello everyone, I'm a US citizen planning on moving to Hungary with my family and acquiring a "for other purposes" residency visa.  As of this moment, Americans can enter Hungary but must either have two negative coronavirus tests 48 hours apart 5 days before arriving, or quarantine for 14 days in Hungary. 

The two tests are impossible because of how long it takes to get results back, so it seems that quarantine is the only option.  Has anyone entered Hungary from a "yellow" country like the USA recently?  Did you have to quarantine in a government run facility, or could you do it in an Airbnb or private apartment?

My US colleague is trying to get to Bulgaria.  The plan there is to get from USA to Ireland which has few restrictions for US citizens.   Then from there, the route would to  try to get to Bulgaria either by direct flight or overland via the UK (Northern Ireland).     But unfortunately, Bulgaria is not Hungary but potentially it could be possible via say Austria and then take a bus or just drive across but untested due to passport checks.  But according to the official EU site, you aren't allowed in at all.  Information changes every Wednesday for Hungary.

As an indicator of costs, I saw a news article about on site testing at Frankfurt Airport.   You can see how much it costs here.  That shows EUR 139 for an express test within 2-3 hours plus 9 EUR for an official paper.   Not cheap for a family.   But it does show they can do it at speed.

I heard today that if you want a test here in Hungary, they come to your place in an ambulance in full PPE.   The ambulance is to stop you going to a hospital or a clinic regardless of your actual condition.   Not tested it myself.

I think unless one of your family is EU or EEA or Hungarian, I think you will find it difficult to get here without jumping through hoops.

Americans are allowed to enter Hungary, its considered a "yellow" country

https://www.iatatravelcentre.com/intern … 226297.htm

Entering Hungary
As of July 15, 2020, the Government of Hungary introduces entry restrictions.  Countries are classified into “red”, “yellow” and “green” categories, based on the severity of the COVID situation in each.

Hungarian citizens and their relatives can enter Hungary from a “green” country without a health check. A Hungarian citizen coming from a “yellow” or “red” country will be subjected to health checks at the border and must be quarantined for 14 days. An exception to this is if they can credibly show two negative coronavirus tests 48 hours apart in the previous 5 days. A Hungarian citizen coming from a “yellow” country may be released from quarantine after the first negative coronavirus test, but if coming from a “red” country, two negative tests are required.

In the case of non-Hungarian citizens, those coming from a “yellow” country can enter under the same conditions as Hungarian citizens, but it is not possible to enter Hungary from a “red” country.

Categories and countries (as of July 18, 2020):
“Red” Countries: Republic of Albania, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Republic of Belarus, Republic of Kosovo, Republic of Northern Macedonia, Moldova, Montenegro, Ukraine, all African countries, all Asian countries, except for Japan and the People’s Republic of China, all countries belonging to the Australian continent, and most countries on the American continent.

“Yellow” Countries: Bulgaria, United Kingdom, Norway, Russian Federation, Romania, Republic of Serbia, Kingdom of Sweden, Japan, People’s Republic of China, United States of America, and Canada.

“Green” Countries: Countries that did not receive a yellow or red classification are green.
The Government of Hungary will regularly review the classification of countries and will adjust it to possible changes in the COVID situation.
Transit and freight traffic are exempt but will have to follow an officially designated corridor. At the same time, health examinations may be carried out if needed.
See details with a map of Europe here (as of July 13, 2020):
http://abouthungary.hu/news-in-brief/go … trictions/
Information about testing requirements:
http://abouthungary.hu/news-in-brief/ch … d-as-well/
Official list of countries by category (as of July 18, 2020):
http://www.kozlonyok.hu/kozlonyok/Kozlo … 020/41.pdf (PDF 225KB)  (in Hungarian)
Humanitarian corridors: Foreign citizens arriving from abroad in passenger traffic to transit can enter Hungary if they undergo a medical check upon entry and such a check does not reveal the suspicion of infection.  Please check the Hungarian Police’s website for details: http://www.police.hu/en/content/humanitarian-corridor
Exception Requests: Foreigners may make a request an exception and entry permit with supporting documents on the National Police website. See https://ugyintezes.police.hu/web/guest/uj-ugy-inditasa/ (in Hungarian only)

fluffy2560 wrote:

John523 wrote:

Hello everyone, I'm a US citizen planning on moving to Hungary with my family and acquiring a "for other purposes" residency visa.  As of this moment, Americans can enter Hungary but must either have two negative coronavirus tests 48 hours apart 5 days before arriving, or quarantine for 14 days in Hungary. 

The two tests are impossible because of how long it takes to get results back, so it seems that quarantine is the only option.  Has anyone entered Hungary from a "yellow" country like the USA recently?  Did you have to quarantine in a government run facility, or could you do it in an Airbnb or private apartment?

My US colleague is trying to get to Bulgaria.  The plan there is to get from USA to Ireland which has few restrictions for US citizens.   Then from there, the route would to  try to get to Bulgaria either by direct flight or overland via the UK (Northern Ireland).     But unfortunately, Bulgaria is not Hungary but potentially it could be possible via say Austria and then take a bus or just drive across but untested due to parking checks.  But according to the official EU site, you aren't allowed in at all.  Information changes every Wednesday for Hungary.

As an indicator of costs, I saw a news article about on site testing at Frankfurt Airport.   You can see how much it costs here.  That shows EUR 139 for an express test within 2-3 hours plus 9 EUR for an official paper.   Not cheap for a family.   But it does show they can do it at speed.

I heard today that if you want a test here in Hungary, they come to your place in an ambulance in full PPE.   The ambulance is to stop you going to a hospital or a clinic regardless of your actual condition.   Not tested it myself.

I think unless one of your family is EU or EEA or Hungarian, I think you will find it difficult to get here without jumping through hoops.

Austria has extended the ban for direct flights from the UK.

SimCityAT wrote:

Austria has extended the ban for direct flights from the UK.

Oh, great, just shows how it changes every 5 minutes.  It could change when you're in the air!

SimCityAT wrote:

....

.....
Official list of countries by category (as of July 18, 2020):
http://www.kozlonyok.hu/kozlonyok/Kozlo … 020/41.pdf (PDF 225KB)  (in Hungarian)
Humanitarian corridors: Foreign citizens arriving from abroad in passenger traffic to transit can enter Hungary if they undergo a medical check upon entry and such a check does not reveal the suspicion of infection.  Please check the Hungarian Police’s website for details: ...

Yes, I take it back, USA is Yellow as of Saturday 18th. 

I used the EU Reopen link and it said "no". 

If the OP went via Frankfurt then they could get tested at the airport or maybe in the USA when they depart and do the second test here.

I'm thinking of giving it a try to the Yellow category UK. 

I know I'll have to self-isolate when I come back.

BTW, a private PCR test for COVID19 is 35K HUF or USD 115 at the time of writing.

fluffy2560 wrote:

SimCityAT wrote:

Austria has extended the ban for direct flights from the UK.

Oh, great, just shows how it changes every 5 minutes.  It could change when you're in the air!

They extended it from the 15th until the end of the month.

https://www.vienna.at/massive-ausweitun … en/6676676

But I thought the whole of the EU had banned the USA??

fluffy2560 wrote:

SimCityAT wrote:

....

.....
Official list of countries by category (as of July 18, 2020):
http://www.kozlonyok.hu/kozlonyok/Kozlo … 020/41.pdf (PDF 225KB)  (in Hungarian)
Humanitarian corridors: Foreign citizens arriving from abroad in passenger traffic to transit can enter Hungary if they undergo a medical check upon entry and such a check does not reveal the suspicion of infection.  Please check the Hungarian Police’s website for details: ...

Yes, I take it back, USA is Yellow as of Saturday 18th. 

I used the EU Reopen link and it said "no". 

If the OP went via Frankfurt then they could get tested at the airport or maybe in the USA when they depart and do the second test here.

I'm thinking of giving it a try to the Yellow category UK. 

I know I'll have to self-isolate when I come back.

BTW, a private PCR test for COVID19 is 35K HUF or USD 115 at the time of writing.

This was taken from the US Embassy. I find it strange that the USA is classed as yellow?

SimCityAT wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

SimCityAT wrote:

Austria has extended the ban for direct flights from the UK.

Oh, great, just shows how it changes every 5 minutes.  It could change when you're in the air!

They extended it from the 15th until the end of the month.

https://www.vienna.at/massive-ausweitun … en/6676676

But I thought the whole of the EU had banned the USA??

Looks like things change too fast for everyone to keep up and there's no coordination, just non-real time reporting.

I thought the USA was banned. 

I don't know what would happen if a country was Yellow and you carried out half a flight to that country and while you were there, it'd go Red.

I am now concerned going to the UK, there will be another lockdown while I'm there and I won't be able to come back.

BTW, we should really that this to the COVID19 thread...as there are wider issues.

fluffy2560 wrote:

SimCityAT wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

Oh, great, just shows how it changes every 5 minutes.  It could change when you're in the air!

They extended it from the 15th until the end of the month.

https://www.vienna.at/massive-ausweitun … en/6676676

But I thought the whole of the EU had banned the USA??

Looks like things change too fast for everyone to keep up and there's no coordination, just non-real time reporting.

I thought the USA was banned. 

I don't know what would happen if a country was Yellow and you carried out half a flight to that country and while you were there, it'd go Red.

I am now concerned going to the UK, there will be another lockdown while I'm there and I won't be able to come back.

That was my thought, the EU had banned USA travel until end of the month, Well we have good weather so not got time to research so will be in the garden.

The EU rules are for guidance; individual countries are free to set their own standards, not that deviating from the party line isn't frowned upon by Brussels.

The U.S. has been classed "Yellow" by Hungary from the outset of the new rules on July 15th. Note the Hungarian rule is based on where you are coming from, not your nationality. So American citizens arriving from a "Green" country are not subject to the testing or quarantine regime. It's not clear how transits or treated, nor how long, if long at all, you must have been in the "Green" country.

If you go for the testing regime, it's two negative tests at least 48 hours apart, with the first no more than five days before your arrival. They must both be PCR tests, and those may not be available at airports en route. Remember that so long as the U.S. remains classifed as "Yellow" by Hungary, Americans arriving from America can still enter Hungary without any tests, but they'll be subject to a 14-day quarantine instead.

Of course everything could change tomorrow. Or tonight even.

John523 wrote:

Hello everyone, I'm a US citizen planning on moving to Hungary with my family and acquiring a "for other purposes" residency visa.

Why? Why now? Why not wait till health issues are resolved?

SimCityAT wrote:

I find it strange that the USA is classed as yellow?

The USA has the highest number of current infections and deaths in the world. I find it strange the USA was not classified as red, including for many other reasons.

I suppose it's possible a political element came into play.

In any event, for the benefit of those who decde to forego the tests, can anyone shed light on just what the 14-day quarantine involves? Lock up in a government facility? Lock up at home or a hotel? Absolute stay-in-your room quarantine or free to go out shopping for a couple of hours?

zif wrote:

I suppose it's possible a political element came into play.

In any event, for the benefit of those who decde to forego the tests, can anyone shed light on just what the 14-day quarantine involves? Lock up in a government facility? Lock up at home or a hotel? Absolute stay-in-your room quarantine or free to go out shopping for a couple of hours?

As far as I know quarantine means not going out at all.   If you don't have your own acceptable (to them) place for your stay, they'll forcibly take you to a government place.  No idea what that looks like or who pays for it. Probably an isolation hospital out in the sticks.  There are plenty of unused hotels and hospitals.  It won't be the Hilton.   Home isolation involves the cops dropping by to see you every so often. 

I also heard (just a rumour) that you are required to put a red sign outside to show it's an isolation location. I think that's a bit like putting a big target on your back.  Neighbours might not be too happy.

klsallee wrote:

SimCityAT wrote:

I find it strange that the USA is classed as yellow?

The USA has the highest number of current infections and deaths in the world. I find it strange the USA was not classified as red, including for many other reasons.

Depends how you look at it - the death rate is 1/3 higher in the UK than the USA.  Click here for results deaths/100K population.. 

In fact UK outranks everyone except San Marino and Belgium.

I believe those figures in the link are for confirmed cases only.

Best place is Taiwan.

klsallee wrote:

SimCityAT wrote:

I find it strange that the USA is classed as yellow?

The USA has the highest number of current infections and deaths in the world. I find it strange the USA was not classified as red, including for many other reasons.

Quite   

John523 Thank you for your 2nd post but as it was a duplicate, it was removed.

There's another point.

The risk of opening a country to Hungary isn't dependent on just the prevalence of infection in that country; it's also related to the number of travelers from that country to Hungary.

Let's say the prevalence of infection is such that 1 in 1,000 visitors from the United States of Canada is likely to be infected. Let's say that for neighbouring Bulgmania the rate is just 1 in 5,000. If 25,000 visitors come each month from USC but 250,000 come from Bulgmania, then visitors from Bulgmania are going to pose five times the risk of introducing infection compared with visitors from USC.

That is, there's a reasonable argument for applying a much lower threshold to neighbouring countries simply because the number of visitors from those countries is so much more substantial.

zif wrote:

There's another point.

The risk of opening a country to Hungary isn't dependent on just the prevalence of infection in that country; it's also related to the number of travelers from that country to Hungary.

Let's say the prevalence of infection is such that 1 in 1,000 visitors from the United States of Canada is likely to be infected. Let's say that for neighbouring Bulgmania the rate is just 1 in 5,000. If 25,000 visitors come each month from USC but 250,000 come from Bulgmania, then visitors from Bulgmania are going to pose five times the risk of introducing infection compared with visitors from USC.

That is, there's a reasonable argument for applying a much lower threshold to neighbouring countries simply because the number of visitors from those countries is so much more substantial.

Maths is not my strong point this early in the morning without my coffee but surely it's 2 x the risk?

USC =  25000 / 1000 = 25 possible cases
Bulgmania = 250000 / 5000 = 50 possible cases

There are other behavioural factors to make it complicated - most USC folks go to holiday villages and do not go out much whereas Bulgmania folks spend their times in the shopping malls grabbing cross border bargains or hang out with large groups of relatives.  Not easy to model.

Incidentally Case in point - I heard on the radio about the orthodox Jewish folks having to change their ritualistic behaviour.

Math obviously isn't my strong suit either these days.

Of course nobody's saying it's a precise comparison. Indeed, the major issue you could have pointed out is that visitors from neighbouring countries are likely to spend fewer days -- maybe just a day -- in Hungary than those Amercanadians.

Still, it remains a valid consideration. I don't know the numbers, but I think it's a more than reasonable assumption that visitors from Croatia, Serbia, Bulgaria, Romania and Ukraine outnumber in the extreme visitors from N America, especially this year and especially with limited flight options.

As well, remember the rules apply to returning Hungarians as well, and they certainly are far far far more likely to cross into a neighbouring land than cross the Atlantic. In some countries with these kinds of restrictions, it's pretty clear the quarantine rules are really designed to deter their own citizens from taking short breaks across the border.

zif wrote:

The risk of opening a country to Hungary isn't dependent on just the prevalence of infection in that country; it's also related to the number of travelers from that country to Hungary.

Epidemiology and the spread of infectious disease modeling requires the consideration of dozens if not hundreds of variables. You only account for two. So simplistic, it is not really very useful.

For example, I can included just two more variable, such as age of infected persons versus the age of people that travel. If those two groups do not overlap then your calculations are wrong. Models must consider, compare and contract, far more variables than just two to determine if the model may be an accurate predictor or not.

So it is not only about understanding math or not, it is about understanding science and proper science based modeling.

zif wrote:

Math obviously isn't my strong suit either these days.

Of course nobody's saying it's a precise comparison. Indeed, the major issue you could have pointed out is that visitors from neighbouring countries are likely to spend fewer days -- maybe just a day -- in Hungary than those Amercanadians.

Still, it remains a valid consideration. I don't know the numbers, but I think it's a more than reasonable assumption that visitors from Croatia, Serbia, Bulgaria, Romania and Ukraine outnumber in the extreme visitors from N America, especially this year and especially with limited flight options.

As well, remember the rules apply to returning Hungarians as well, and they certainly are far far far more likely to cross into a neighbouring land than cross the Atlantic. In some countries with these kinds of restrictions, it's pretty clear the quarantine rules are really designed to deter their own citizens from taking short breaks across the border.

Yes, I can see your point. I'd also expect Bulgmania visitors might be short term - like Austrians coming to HU for the day to do some Sunday shopping - whereas USC visitors are longer term staying weeks at a time.  Not sure if that increases their risk or not.  Perhaps Bulgmania only meet people in their family bubble and so interactions are limited. 

If there was an outlier as higher risk then it would probably be returning Hungarians within Europe, specifically from the UK as a hotspot back to here.  Germany has such a low incidence that despite the number of Hungarians there, the risk must be lower.  They also would come by vehicle and therefore in a transport bubble.   

So maybe not the immediate neighbouring area but perhaps indicated by the frequency of flights into HU from anywhere in Europe/EU or vehicle crossings.

BTW, the numbers of tourists - of all nationalities (heard French, German) - in Balaton was huge last week.  On the ferries, no-one was wearing a mask except me and a couple of others.  That's despite the huge sign on the door of the salon saying put your mask on!

"So it is not only about understanding math or not, it is about understanding science and proper science based modeling."

I somehow missed where I was purporting to set up a model. I'll go back and read what I wrote again. Maybe I overlooked it. Or perhaps I should have described that little calculation I set out as ceteris paribus.

zif wrote:

"So it is not only about understanding math or not, it is about understanding science and proper science based modeling."

I somehow missed where I was purporting to set up a model. I'll go back and read what I wrote again. Maybe I overlooked it.

When you start with:

zif wrote:

Let's say

You are starting the premise of a model. And then you tried to use "math" to justify it. Reinforces the model concept. Maybe you do not have a science based education, but those are the basis of a model.

But that misses the point. The point is: Don't try to simplify epidemiology (which uses modeling a lot)  if you do not know what you are talking about. Too many people think they can pontificate by "just" using so called "common sense" (which is not always common, nor does it always make sense).

You can try to shout down a discussion about just about anything using that approach: oh, it's so complicated how dare you even open a discussion about it. Let's not talk about the issue itself, why let's talk about how it's all so complicated we shouldn't even be talking about it at all.

If anyone's pontificating here, it ain't me.

Apart from the mathematical error, I stand by what I said.

zif wrote:

You can try to shout down a discussion about just about anything using that approach: oh, it's so complicated how dare you even open a discussion about it. Let's not talk about the issue itself, why let's talk about how it's all so complicated we shouldn't even be talking about it at all.

You grossly misinterpret what I said.

Which is basically: as a counter example we can discuss rockets.  About rocket science any intellectual amateur person should probably give credit to and leave the details on the facts of rocket science to the rocket scientists and experts. While an amateur should not try to get over their heads on facts that they do not understand by making calculations that are clearly false to those who are more expertise in such issues. But any amateur can ask and learn by discussion from rocket scientists if they are willing to learn -- that is the basis of discussion (but not amateur pontificate and amateurish calculations and accusations which simply comes across as overtly ignorant and arrogant).

That is, you as the amateur got over your head. And you then only got upset by this when called out. Rather than simply acknowledging that fact, learning from it, and moving on to a real meaningful open minded discussion. Pity.

zif wrote:

You can try to shout down a discussion about just about anything using that approach: oh, it's so complicated how dare you even open a discussion about it. Let's not talk about the issue itself, why let's talk about how it's all so complicated we shouldn't even be talking about it at all.

If anyone's pontificating here, it ain't me.

Apart from the mathematical error, I stand by what I said.

I tend to agree -  think the discussion is really very important to know the limits of any model.   It's human behaviour and philosophy.  Bit like exploring.

The science says put forward a hypothesis and try to prove it.  But it works the other way equally  well.

One of my contemporaries years ago went to Asia many years ago to work on his PhD.  After X years of trying prove something or other, it was clear that the hypothesis was false.  He was of course disappointed after labouring for years but he still got his PhD for disproving the theory. 

In his earlier discourse and discussion with his peers, prior to the main body of research,  I guess with hindsight he could have thought about asking the right question if he wanted a PhD with an upbeat positive result.

fluffy2560 wrote:

The science says put forward a hypothesis and try to prove it.  But it works the other way equally  well.
.

Wrong. Oh, so wrong on so many levels.

You clearly do not have a degree in science.

Scientists do not try to prove their hypothesis.... They try to disprove it (they often specifically test against a null hypothesis that the idea is random). And if they can not disprove it (it is not the affect of random events for example), they publish it and ask others to disprove it by repeated analysis. Only when many others can not disprove it, it is accepted by consensus.

fluffy2560 wrote:

One of my contemporaries years ago went to Asia many years ago to work on his PhD.  After X years of trying prove something or other, it was clear that the hypothesis was false.  He was of course disappointed after labouring for years but he still got his PhD for disproving the theory.

Of course he still got his degree. Because he followed the scientific method correctly. Negative results in science are still results worthy of recognition. Or course, no one wins Nobel prizes with negative results, but they still did science properly. And the entire point of getting a BS, or MS or PhD is to learn how to do science correctly. Learning the method is what counts the most, not so much the results.

So, from your comments you also, sadly, have no real understanding or fundamental idea about generic purpose of the scientific method. It is not about "winning" or getting it right yourself, it is about the pursuit of fundamental facts.

klsallee wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

The science says put forward a hypothesis and try to prove it.  But it works the other way equally  well.
.

Wrong. Oh, so wrong on so many levels.

You clearly do not have a degree in science.

Scientists do not try to prove their hypothesis.... They try to disprove it (they often specifically test against a null hypothesis that the idea is not nonrandom). And if they can not disprove it (it is not the affect of random events for example), they publish it and ask others to disprove it by repeated analysis. Only when many others can not disprove it, it is accepted by conscientious.

You also, sadly, have no idea about the scientific method. Like most people. Sadly.....

Haha, yes sure I don't.  And sure they do. 

Usually we work on the maths first (not usually empirical), making a mathematical model and then design an experiment to compare it to observations from the physical world.  We check to see how accurate it is within an acceptable amount of error.   And if no match, then yes, one checks why to see what's up with the model.

In any case, reproducible experiments and observations are important as technique but at degree level all experimentation is based on accepted science of the day.   Unfortunately, in my own case, things have moved on considerably and so have my interests but the principles are still in use for other activities.

Hi John,
I could not answer all your questions, but I will try to do that for some.
I am Canadian and we are living here in Hungary on "for other purposes" permit.  I went to visit our family back in March and got caught in that coronavirus lock down situationi.
Finally managed to fly back early June (this is why I am saying that I could not answer your questions based on current "color" permitted country classification.
On my arrival I was given red sticker at the airport , asked for an address where I would be staying and signed some paper that I will stay at that address I provided for 14 days in quarantine.

Placed red sticker at the front gate, never had any issued with neighbours.  Got occasional visits from police to check if I am staying inside and after 14 days was free to go where I want.

Nothing too dramatic, all doable.

Not sure how and where you might be placed in 14 days quarantine though.

Good luck with your trip, hope you could figure out the way to get in

voyage2931 wrote:

Hi John,
I could not answer all your questions, but I will try to do that for some.
I am Canadian and we are living here in Hungary on "for other purposes" permit.  I went to visit our family back in March and got caught in that coronavirus lock down situationi.
Finally managed to fly back early June (this is why I am saying that I could not answer your questions based on current "color" permitted country classification.
On my arrival I was given red sticker at the airport , asked for an address where I would be staying and signed some paper that I will stay at that address I provided for 14 days in quarantine.

Placed red sticker at the front gate, never had any issued with neighbours.  Got occasional visits from police to check if I am staying inside and after 14 days was free to go where I want.

Nothing too dramatic, all doable.

Not sure how and where you might be placed in 14 days quarantine though.

Good luck with your trip, hope you could figure out the way to get in

Good info.  The red sticker is interesting and the fact the police actually visited you.  I was thinking to go and get the test when returning from abroad but if you cannot go out at all....then how?