Cheap way to get investor residency? OB, Ciambella, please read.

OK, I forgot that the company would need to be worth ₫2,900,000,000 VNĐ or more, so I guess that eliminates most hot tocs.

Also investmemt has to be in a recognized company... chances are ypu would never see your investment again... corruption and greed among business owners is common. Even banks CEOs have been known to vanish with customers cash

All I know about the subject of investor visa was the personal experiences which 5 expats (one French Brazilian, two Americans, and two Dutch citizens) shared with me. 

For the French Brazilian, he deposited 1 billion to an investment account in a VN bank, created a company, opened a restaurant under the ownership of the company, and received a 5 year TRC.  He also has a tour company specialising in youth educational travel to Bhutan, a French library and cultural center (free access to all), and a sport advertisement agency.  The money is still being kept in the account 3 years later.  He has a local accounting service to do his tax.

For one American, the investment was also 1 billion.  He also opened a restaurant and received a 3 year TRC.  The money is still being kept in the account.

For the other American, I didn't ask about the amount of investment but his business is multinational and he's the sole owner.  He hired a local bookkeeper to handle the tax.  This year is the 9th year he has a TRC.

For the Dutch couple, they were looking into the Board of Director and shareholder path but decided do it their way by creating a company to teach English to workers in hospitality field and train them to understand the custom and behaviours of different Western countries so they can serve the customers efficiently.  Her TRC is for 2 years.  I didn't ask about the amount of investment.

Just to confirm, the three year thing is normal.  Our investment capital is still sitting there and must be in place for three years.  We just put it in a 12 month deposit book and renew it each year.

Thanks for the replies. Well, I don't want the complications of running a business. If I could just give 100 mil to an existing company, I would much prefer that.

That's not that much to lose, and it would be worth it to get a few year's residency.

So, I am just wondering if it can be as simple as that. I approach my landlord or whoever, who has a business worth 3 billion or whatever, and say I will invest 100 mil if it can be arranged that I'm an investor in his biz and would qualify me for residency.

It's either be an investor or get married. If I could find the right woman, that would be great, but I think it will not be so easy...

I don't see how 100,000,000 VND can qualify for an investor visa when Thailand wants 10 million Baht.  They are not even in the same ballpark.  We have a lot more than 100 million just sitting in Citibank VN.

I agree, that's a very modest sum. I am just asking because OB said that his agent said that you could do it with as little as 100 mil

Whether it’s 100 mill or 3 billion.......it’s a whole new world now.

In the US they’re shooting at one another on Capital Hill ,  country’s are in lockdown ,  who knows when the next “wave” of the pandemic will hit & what the fallout will be.

Throwing 3 billion into the sewer of corruption here just to get a visa isn’t the best idea going around at the moment.

Keep your powder dry, sit back & wait.

hyagly256 wrote:

OB, can you elaborate on this?

No.

Hire a lawyer

OceanBeach92107 wrote:

hyagly256 wrote:

OB, can you elaborate on this?

No.

Hire a lawyer

Just when I thought we had found a kinder, gentler OB. 

Is it possible to deposit a few billion in an investment account but then not open a business? Or maybe be planning to open a business but are not yet ready to do it?

hyagly256 wrote:

Is it possible to deposit a few billion in an investment account but then not open a business? Or maybe be planning to open a business but are not yet ready to do it?

So, get an investor visa without...investing?  No.

Or planning to?  Yes.  You can PLAN TO get an investor visa once you are no longer PLANNING TO and actually DO make the investment in the business.

Investor visas are available for those that follow the rules but if you can't be bothered to contact a lawyer and do it properly you are just wasting your time.

The cost of lawyers here is very inexpensive.  They can do whatever you need for a few hundred dollars if you are truly willing to invest but talking to a bunch of expats, of which very few of us have actually done it, is not going to be of benefit to you.  This is coming from an expat who actually has done it.

Let's be honest, you are a tourist.  You are entitled to a tourist visa.  Accept this and move on.  You aren't an investor, truly willing to invest in a real business.  You are looking for an end-around for an easy visa.  Don't try to cock up the system for those of us who do it correctly.

There is a sticky thread on this subject.  Is it out of date?  The last post was only six months ago.  Why not seek your answers there from charmavietnam who actually holds such a visa?  If I am not mistaken, OB and Ciambella, although generally knowledgeable, hold a business visa and a VEC respectively.

THIGV wrote:

There is a sticky thread on this subject.  Is it out of date?  The last post was only six months ago.  Why not seek your answers there from charmavietnam who actually holds such a visa?  If I am not mistaken, OB and Ciambella, although generally knowledgeable, hold a business visa and a VEC respectively.

Which is why I told him to contact a lawyer.

This is that sticky thread:

expat.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=823006

It would be interesting to see how he gets his current tourist visa changed to a DT visa, since he can't leave the country and re-enter, and since a DT visa requires company documents.

Perhaps under recent immigration law changes, he could make that change without having to leave the country, but still it would require those pesky documents.

I'm pretty sure this is why my agent in Hanoi tells me that this is an ill-advised way to go about trying to stay in the country longer if you aren't in fact going to run a business...

THIGV wrote:

There is a sticky thread on this subject.  Is it out of date?  The last post was only six months ago.  Why not seek your answers there from charmavietnam who actually holds such a visa?  If I am not mistaken, OB and Ciambella, although generally knowledgeable, hold a business visa and a VEC respectively.

That's why I prefaced my answer with the disclaimer "All I know about the subject of investor visa was the personal experiences which 5 expats (one French Brazilian, two Americans, and two Dutch citizens) shared with me."

SteinNebraska also gave a valuable and spot-on advice "from an expat who actually has done it":  "You aren't an investor, truly willing to invest in a real business.  You are looking for an end-around for an easy visa.  Don't try to cock up the system for those of us who do it correctly."

Ciambella wrote:

THIGV wrote:

There is a sticky thread on this subject.  Is it out of date?  The last post was only six months ago.  Why not seek your answers there from charmavietnam who actually holds such a visa?  If I am not mistaken, OB and Ciambella, although generally knowledgeable, hold a business visa and a VEC respectively.

That's why I prefaced my answer with the disclaimer "All I know about the subject of investor visa was the personal experiences which 5 expats (one French Brazilian, two Americans, and two Dutch citizens) shared with me."

SteinNebraska also gave a valuable and spot-on advice "from an expat who actually has done it":  "You aren't an investor, truly willing to invest in a real business.  You are looking for an end-around for an easy visa.  Don't try to cock up the system for those of us who do it correctly."

I must say, there are many expats here on DN visas that have never entertained the idea of doing business. With the visa system the way it is there will always be a way to get around the legalities that are in place.

A fist full of bucks can get you anything and everything.

colinoscapee wrote:

I must say, there are many expats here on DN visas that have never entertained the idea of doing business.
.

According to Law 51/2019 / QH14 effective July 1, 2020, DN visa is issued to people who come to work with Vietnamese enterprises (DN: doanh nghiệp: enterprise).

DN1 is for people who work with enterprises and organizations with legal status in Vietnam; DN2 is for people who offer services, establish a company, or perform other activities under international treaties to which Vietnam is a member.

ĐT visa (ĐT: đầu tư: invest) is for people who invest in a business with investment incentives.

Investor visas are ĐT1 – ĐT4. 

ĐT1 is for an investment of more than 100 billions; ĐT2 is for 50 - 100 billions, ĐT3 is for 3 - 50 billions; and ĐT4 is up to 3 billions.

Ciambella wrote:

colinoscapee wrote:

I must say, there are many expats here on DN visas that have never entertained the idea of doing business.
.

According to Law 51/2019 / QH14 effective July 1, 2020, DN visa is issued to people who come to work with Vietnamese enterprises (DN: doanh nghiệp: enterprise).

DN1 is for people who work with enterprises and organizations with legal status in Vietnam; DN2 is for people who offer services, establish a company, or perform other activities under international treaties to which Vietnam is a member.

ĐT visa (ĐT: đầu tư: invest) is for people who invest in a business with investment incentives.

Investor visas are ĐT1 – ĐT4. 

ĐT1 is for an investment of more than 100 billions; ĐT2 is for 50 - 100 billions, ĐT3 is for 3 - 50 billions; and ĐT4 is up to 3 billions.

Put me down for a DT1 please

goodolboy wrote:

Ciambella wrote:

colinoscapee wrote:

I must say, there are many expats here on DN visas that have never entertained the idea of doing business.
.

According to Law 51/2019 / QH14 effective July 1, 2020, DN visa is issued to people who come to work with Vietnamese enterprises (DN: doanh nghiệp: enterprise).

DN1 is for people who work with enterprises and organizations with legal status in Vietnam; DN2 is for people who offer services, establish a company, or perform other activities under international treaties to which Vietnam is a member.

ĐT visa (ĐT: đầu tư: invest) is for people who invest in a business with investment incentives.

Investor visas are ĐT1 – ĐT4. 

ĐT1 is for an investment of more than 100 billions; ĐT2 is for 50 - 100 billions, ĐT3 is for 3 - 50 billions; and ĐT4 is up to 3 billions.

Put me down for a DT1 please

A ₫100,000,000,000 VNĐ fertilizer enterprise?

OceanBeach92107 wrote:

goodolboy wrote:

Ciambella wrote:

According to Law 51/2019 / QH14 effective July 1, 2020, DN visa is issued to people who come to work with Vietnamese enterprises (DN: doanh nghiệp: enterprise).

DN1 is for people who work with enterprises and organizations with legal status in Vietnam; DN2 is for people who offer services, establish a company, or perform other activities under international treaties to which Vietnam is a member.

ĐT visa (ĐT: đầu tư: invest) is for people who invest in a business with investment incentives.

Investor visas are ĐT1 – ĐT4. 

ĐT1 is for an investment of more than 100 billions; ĐT2 is for 50 - 100 billions, ĐT3 is for 3 - 50 billions; and ĐT4 is up to 3 billions.

Put me down for a DT1 please

A ₫100,000,000,000 VNĐ fertilizer enterprise?

well you know what they say........"where there's muck there's brass"   that saying might be lost on our American "friends" but I'm sure the Brits, OZ & NZ  citizens amongst us will know it.

goodolboy wrote:

OceanBeach92107 wrote:

goodolboy wrote:

Put me down for a DT1 please

A ₫100,000,000,000 VNĐ fertilizer enterprise?

well you know what they say........"where there's muck there's brass"   that saying might be lost on our American "friends" but I'm sure the Brits, OZ & NZ  citizens amongst us will know it.

A lot of money can be made from bovine excrement (and other dirty things)? 😊

It must go back to a day when coins were actually worth something.

goodolboy wrote:

"where there's muck there's brass"   that saying might be lost on our American "friends" but I'm sure the Brits, OZ & NZ  citizens amongst us will know it.

But I do know that proverb very well, also "Muck and money go together." Have come across both of them multiple times.

Ciambella wrote:

goodolboy wrote:

"where there's muck there's brass"   that saying might be lost on our American "friends" but I'm sure the Brits, OZ & NZ  citizens amongst us will know it.

But I do know that proverb very well, also "Muck and money go together." Have come across both of them multiple times.

Ah but you are not the average US citizen I think.

I would be willing to start a small service business if I were not a citizen of a certain country that is the only country in the world that taxes its citizens on their worldwide income, even if they don't reside in the mother country. And, as I understand it, if one were running a business here, this policy would require one to keep accounting records for 2 countries, in two currencies, and pay taxes to not just VN, but to the other country as well.

The complexity and expense would be unacceptable and put the business owner at a great disadvantage compared to others who are not subject to these policies.

Perhaps some of you who understand what I mean might, hopefully, tell me that I’m wrong about this.

hyagly256 wrote:

Perhaps some of you who understand what I mean might, hopefully, tell me that I’m wrong about this.

I am certainly no tax lawyer or CPA but let me give this a quick shot.  The current foreign income exclusion for 2021is $108,700.  Now the exclusion applies only to what the tax code calls "earned income" so if you are incorporated you will want to take your profit out as wages, not dividends.  I don't think it requires two sets of books in different currencies.  Simply convert your wages and dividends (if any) to dollars the same way you would an ESL salary and enter them on the exclusion Form 2555.   The drawback is that you may have to pay SE Tax t (Social Security.)  So dividends would be taxable at whatever your marginal rate is but wages you paid yourself are excluded but subject to SE Tax which is 12.4%.  Of course if your company made you no  wages or dividends, then there is no tax.  I am not sure that simplifies things and maybe even made them seem more complex.  Not sure about the other programs but Turbotax from the Deluxe level and up supports this form.  Here's to hoping you make over $108,700.   

hyagly256 wrote:

I would be willing to start a small service business if I were not a citizen of a certain country that is the only country in the world that taxes its citizens on their worldwide income, even if they don't reside in the mother country. And, as I understand it, if one were running a business here, this policy would require one to keep accounting records for 2 countries, in two currencies, and pay taxes to not just VN, but to the other country as well.

The complexity and expense would be unacceptable and put the business owner at a great disadvantage compared to others who are not subject to these policies.

Perhaps some of you who understand what I mean might, hopefully, tell me that I’m wrong about this.

It is not a matter of being wrong, it is a matter of what type of business you want to operate, it's legal classification (e.g., corporation, partnership, LLC, sole proprietor etc. etc.), it's country of origin, the owner(s) just for starters.  Just because you and/or your business may be "subject to taxation" in more than 1 country, that does not mean you pay double tax.  It all depends on many factors and yes, you will need a professional to guide you to avoid the pitfalls for the unwary.

THIGV wrote:

hyagly256 wrote:

Perhaps some of you who understand what I mean might, hopefully, tell me that I’m wrong about this.

I am certainly no tax lawyer or CPA but let me give this a quick shot.  The current foreign income exclusion for 2021is $108,700.  Now the exclusion applies only to what the tax code calls "earned income" so if you are incorporated you will want to take your profit out as wages, not dividends.  I don't think it requires two sets of books in different currencies.  Simply convert your wages and dividends (if any) to dollars the same way you would an ESL salary and enter them on the exclusion Form 2555.   The drawback is that you may have to pay SE Tax t (Social Security.)  So dividends would be taxable at whatever your marginal rate is but wages you paid yourself are excluded but subject to SE Tax which is 12.4%.  Of course if your company made you no  wages or dividends, then there is no tax.  I am not sure that simplifies things and maybe even made them seem more complex.  Not sure about the other programs but Turbotax from the Deluxe level and up supports this form.  Here's to hoping you make over $108,700.   

Thanks for the reply, THIGV. Ugh, it sounds so complicated. Even if one doesn't owe taxes, the accounting would be a headache. But paying Social Security tax is also a pain, and a disadvantage. Why the country in question doesn't shift from being the only country in the world that taxes by Citizenship-Based Taxation to Residence-Based-Taxation like the rest of the world uses, is just because of their arrogance and exceptionalism. For the record, this change was endorsed in the Republican platform of 2016, which Trump ran on, yet he did NOTHING to end this unfairness to expats.

What about running a business that makes minimal or no profit, would that work?

hyagly256 wrote:

What about running a business that makes minimal or no profit, would that work?

Targeting break even is probably a recipe for bankruptcy.  One bad season like 2020 has been and you are done for.  You need a cushion.

I would say it is either pay 12.5% SE tax on wages or take the profits as dividends and pay whatever your marginal rate is.  For next year you have to have over $54, 200 in taxable income to pay more than 12% in regular income taxes.  The standard deduction is $12,500 for single persons so really you would have to already be making over $66,700 in "unearned" income to end up paying  more income tax on additional dividends than the SE rate.   If you still have substantial investment or rental income in the US, that may be the case but that is probably not true for most expats in Vietnam.  It looks like dividends may be the way to go for most.  If you were not confused before, you certainly should be by now.   

All this financial talk is making me sleepy...I hate dealing with stuff like that.

too good to be true.

Not possible.

Stein I'm looking for a lawyer, can you recommend one? I've had a quote from a firm in HCNC for US$23k to assist with setting up a company and getting us residency permits, seems ridiculous. Thanks

Michael1979 wrote:

too good to be true.

Not possible.

Just jumping in the conversation and give your opinion without a reference to what you're talking about would truly endear you to the new social group.

Ciambella wrote:

DN1 is for people who work with enterprises and organizations with legal status in Vietnam; DN2 is for people who offer services, establish a company, or perform other activities under international treaties to which Vietnam is a member.

Is it possible DN1 or DN2 can be obtained by doing volunteer work? That would avoid all the financial and tax hassles.

hyagly256 wrote:

Is it possible DN1 or DN2 can be obtained by doing volunteer work? That would avoid all the financial and tax hassles.

I can't answer your question, but I want to clarify that DN is business visa, which gives you only one year stay unless you have a contract.  Investor visa is ĐT, which gives you 3 - 5 year TRC.

A fun trivia:  There are two Ds in Vietnamese alphabets, the first one is D (pronounced as "zay"), and the second one is Đ (pronounced as "day").  DN is pronounced as zay-en and ĐT is pronounced as day-tay.

richard0403 wrote:

Stein I'm looking for a lawyer, can you recommend one? I've had a quote from a firm in HCNC for US$23k to assist with setting up a company and getting us residency permits, seems ridiculous. Thanks

Sent you a PM for the guy I used in HCMC.  Very reasonable cost and speaks English well.  I used him two times - once to buy half of the exisitng business (the business license was already issued to a VN citizen but hadn't been used yet and I bought half) and once to do my work permit exemption.  Few hundred dollars each time.  I'm sure yours will be more starting from scratch but shouldn't be $23k.  Mine was much easier since it already existed and I bought 49%, not 50%.  They said that was possible to do 50/50 split but it would be more difficult (thus more expensive).

hyagly256 wrote:

Is it possible DN1 or DN2 can be obtained by doing volunteer work? That would avoid all the financial and tax hassles.

You really, really need to give this endless loophole search up.  Volunteer isn't "doing business".  You are a Tourist.  Get a Tourist Visa.  It's all that you are legally entitled to.

richard0403 wrote:

Stein I'm looking for a lawyer, can you recommend one? I've had a quote from a firm in HCNC for US$23k to assist with setting up a company and getting us residency permits, seems ridiculous. Thanks

You should do something in your country with this $23K. register business in Vietnam you dont needs to pay lots of money like that, max will cost 25 to 30M as a foreign company. if its Vietnamese company, it will cost 2m to 3m. You don't need to contact the big agency (who said we are big). contact some small companies and nowadays everyone speaks English and there will be nothing hard to communicate.

The process is pretty easy. You dont need to deposit 1 or 2 billion into your account when you open account, just give the number of amount to your investment licence, that's all. When my company started 7 years ago it said total capital is 10 Billion but I never deposit that much money to the company account, just put enough money for the monthly running cost.