Must CIE card with Validade "Indeterminada" be Updated to CRNM card?

Yes - you don't need to change.

The new Law of Migration that went into effect in 2017 was very clear:  CIEs issued after the last general re-registration in the 1990s remain in effect until their expiration date;  if "Validade" is "Indeterminada", the CIE continues to serve as a CRNM and will indefinitely.  When foreigners go to the PF to renew expiring CIEs, they receive new CRNMs automatically.

Some people will still be nervous about this, and by all means, have every right to check with the Federal Police.  But they should do themselves and the PF a favor, and wait until after the pandemic:  the PF is struggling in most places to provide services to people with acute migration problems,  and unless the card was stolen or seriously damaged, this just isn't one. 

Thank you very much, abthree! 

Hi Dear Expats!

I wanted to get advice about my RNM situation. I really think that the data on it is really very confused. For this, I need to explain the history  ;

I got the permanent residence card, RNE based on marriage in early 2016. (Using RNE for previous version and RNM for the new one, just to make things clear). I prepared all other documents and hence started working as "Trabalho registrado na carteira".

I worked for quite some time, then I decided to continue my studies in the field of my profession (earth sciences). I passed the University entrance exams (both language and subject-specific) for graduate studies and got admitted into Ph.D  . I left my job (canceled contract on carteira de trabalho) to continue with my research.

I and my wife stayed together until 2019 and got divorced in early 2019. I didn't know about the possible cancellation of my permanent residence. But later on, I discovered that the PF had canceled my permanent RNE . I went to my home country and applied for a student visa based on my Ph.D. studies. When I applied for a visa, PF called my ex-wife to know my conduct and it went smooth since we had a friendly divorce. The cancellation of Permanent residence is really ambiguous and I went to talk to the authorities with a lawyer, they simply answered that divorce canceled my permanent status. (This happens to few people, I was not lucky enough )

I came back and applied for a temporary RNM. Got the temporary RNM with the following weird deadlines;

Validade de 1 ano (correct for temporary RNM)
Classificacao: temporaria (correct for temporary RNM)
Prazo de residencia: 01-01-2025 (wrong for temporary RNM, right for previous nine years` RNE) 

I applied for a change of "prazo de residencia" to be the same as validity but they couldn't change in the local office. The RNM came with the same error. The PF officer told me to wait as they will contact PF  in Brasilia to change. (They couldn't give me the card because it was really wrong).

Once again they applied through Brasilia and this time the "prazo de residencia came as "Indeterminado". They gave me the card saying that it was correct.

I searched and came to know that "indeterminado" is used for those who have classificacao "Residente" (Previous permanent RNE).

So now my RNM card has the following data:

Validade de 1 ano (correct for temporary RNM)
Classificacao: temporaria (correct for temporary RNM)
Prazo de residencia: Indeterminado ( still wrong for temporary RNM, right for previous nine years` RNE) 

I know that I need to renew my RNM every year but still my classification is "indeterminado".

I talked to some lawyers and every one had different opinion.

Some said that I am a temporary resident and that`s it. 
Others said that I could apply for naturalization but that still seems strange to me since the RNM classification is temporary.
I was thinking of using the link below to renew my RNM this year. I am here for more than 5 years, but still what I dpn't understand is 4 years` condition. I am unsure about whether it is total time in the country or total married time? 

Link
https://www.gov.br/pf/pt-br/assuntos/im … o-familiar

Regarding the status of my "Carteira de trabalho", although I am not registered for the current work but it seems still valid as I saw through the app. I wanted to know, If I am temporary and still with these strange dates, could I use my "Carteira de trabalho" for work in the future? Although I am not looking for work now.

Isn't it very confused? did it happen to anyone? What is your advice in the above case. (Sorry for long story, but still it is very much shortened)

Thanks and stay safe.

Cheers,
Ben

CHIA HA OTTENUTO L'rne COME INVESTITORE,UNA VOLTA RINNOVATO E OTTENUTA LA "VALIDADE INDETERMINATA" può chiudere l'impresa con la quale ha ottenuto il visto?

biancabianca wrote:

CHIA HA OTTENUTO L'rne COME INVESTITORE,UNA VOLTA RINNOVATO E OTTENUTA LA "VALIDADE INDETERMINATA" può chiudere l'impresa con la quale ha ottenuto il visto?

Since the status of your CIE/CRNM is already "indefinite", you probably won't have a problem.  You're probably working with an attorney anyway to close or sell your business,  so you should discuss your concerns about continued residency with your attorney,  just to be sure.

abthree wrote:

biancabianca wrote:

CHIA HA OTTENUTO L'rne COME INVESTITORE,UNA VOLTA RINNOVATO E OTTENUTA LA "VALIDADE INDETERMINATA" può chiudere l'impresa con la quale ha ottenuto il visto?

Since the status of your CIE/CRNM is already "indefinite", you probably won't have a problem.  You're probably working with an attorney anyway to close or sell your business,  so you should discuss your concerns about continued residency with your attorney,  just to be sure.

Now I get it.....Honestly did not know it was Italian. 

Yes - you don't need to change.

The new Law of Migration that went into effect in 2017 was very clear: CIEs issued after the last general re-registration in the 1990s remain in effect until their expiration date; if "Validade" is "Indeterminada", the CIE continues to serve as a CRNM and will indefinitely. When foreigners go to the PF to renew expiring CIEs, they receive new CRNMs automatically.

Some people will still be nervous about this, and by all means, have every right to check with the Federal Police. But they should do themselves and the PF a favor, and wait until after the pandemic: the PF is struggling in most places to provide services to people with acute migration problems, and unless the card was stolen or seriously damaged, this just isn't one.
-@abthree

Thank you for this @abthree. And glad I used the "search" function!

I guess that I am one of the "nervous" folks you refer to, but certainly see no need to check with the PF, especially since catching up with your posts they enjoy high credibility with me. Can you just help steer me to the relevant passage, I just tried checking Lei 13.445 (if I have it right) and couldn't find the provision, but it's probably in a Portaria Normativa from the Conselho de Imigraçao., right? Obrigado

12/04/22 Yes - you don't need to change.

The new Law of Migration that went into effect in 2017 was very clear: CIEs issued after the last general re-registration in the 1990s remain in effect until their expiration date; if "Validade" is "Indeterminada", the CIE continues to serve as a CRNM and will indefinitely. When foreigners go to the PF to renew expiring CIEs, they receive new CRNMs automatically.

Some people will still be nervous about this, and by all means, have every right to check with the Federal Police. But they should do themselves and the PF a favor, and wait until after the pandemic: the PF is struggling in most places to provide services to people with acute migration problems, and unless the card was stolen or seriously damaged, this just isn't one.
-@abthree

Thank you for this @abthree. And glad I used the "search" function!

I guess that I am one of the "nervous" folks you refer to, but certainly see no need to check with the PF, especially since catching up with your posts they enjoy high credibility with me. Can you just help steer me to the relevant passage, I just tried checking Lei 13.445 (if I have it right) and couldn't find the provision, but it's probably in a Portaria Normativa from the Conselho de Imigraçao., right? Obrigado
-@Marcos999

Glad that you made me re-check! 😃

Apparently, CIEs with "Validade Interminada" do need to be turned in for CRNMs nine years after they were issued.  See "Parágrafo Único of Art. 2 of Portaria No. 8728 fr 21 de Agosto de 2018:

https://www.in.gov.br/materia/-/asset_p … 8-39937733

Whoa @abthree! I much preferred your initial answer to @MangoMike, so why don't we stick with that.But this being Brazil, a new acronym linked to an object with essentially the same characteristics apparently renders validade "indeterminada" to "determinada."  Anyway, I appreciate your re-checking. So help me out here. Have been away from this process for awhile.   Quickly checked the gov.br site and found this link for renewing  CRNM card from temp to perm validity, but my case is somewhat different (CIE com prazo "indeterminado" to CRNM com prazo "indeterminado"), right?  https://www.gov.br/pt-br/servicos/obter … igratorioI also checked the site's FAQ and apparently there is no multa legally available for them to charge "expired"  residency cards, so apparently one would just pay the renewal fee. Am concerned that I would not receive the new card in time for travel. On the one hand I am tempted to simply plead ignorance at the airport(zero outreach/communication on their part).  On the other I suppose they would issue a protocolo for travel in the meantime?  Finally, are you aware of a current email for the PF for queries.  Thanks.

12/05/22 @Marcos999  Yeah, I liked my initial answer better, too.  I'm sure that I'm not the only person to miss the rule, especially since it was published in such a bizarre way, as a throwaway line at the bottom of a Portaria on a different subject, the specs for the new CRNM.  Some PF offices will probably be surprised when residents show up to renew cards that can't expire.

Nevertheless, there's a process for the replacement, and it's very straightforward -- just refreshing the picture, declaring that the condtions of residency have not changed and, Brazil being Brazil, paying a fee.  Here it is:

https://www.gov.br/pf/pt-br/assuntos/im … o-de-prazo