Electric cars (EV) Pros and Cons?

@bigpearOur solar system in Oz was paid for in less than 2.5 years, grid tied and buy back from the supplier, after that we were saving 2.5 to 2.8 thousand bucks a year, Return % you can do the math being an engineer.

Of course, grid tie Is a much smaller investment because it doesn't involve batteries, it is just an arrangement to save power bills and I assume that works out in areas where the power Company agrees to buy your power. Here in Dumaguete it takes at least 6 months toget that approval if your system meets their requirements. But I am not talking about grid tie except to say that if saving money is the objective, that can happen, conditional to the owner company approval.

A laugh from me, you said "spend 20k (php?) replacing batteries after 5 years". Our batteries here are P 750K and factored into the ROI, guaranteed for 8,000 cycles or 10 years, sure they will degrade as will the solar panels warrantied for 25 years and the invertors warrantied for 10 years so even a small investment but carefully curated?

I assume you are using li-ion batteries. li-ion is very expensive but lasts much longer than lead acid. Based on my career experience with li-ion tech, no way will those batteries last 15-30 years. Your batteries will be seriously reduced to about half to 75% initial storage capacity after 5-7 years and shortly thereafter they will die. This means that after 7 years you will not get 15k php each month. When I said 20K I meant US dollars, not pesos. It is possible that with the advance of EV, the tech is cheaper but you keep saying you can produce 15k php worth of electricity per month. For li-ion to store that much electricity everyday I estimate the battery cost to be about 1m php or 20k dollars. Of course my rough $$$ estimates may be wrong; I have been out of engineering for 7 years and I appreciate your telling me if I am out of date with my estimated costs or estimates of battery lifetime.

l

Fred Sed:

Ah, an answer without an answer. I see this in people with an unwinnable point.

    -@Fred

Not really my point Frederick. There are many scientists who have made and continue to take this position. And when the discussion involves controversy and emotion by the Green activists, you tell me what one could say, that disagrees with your agenda, could possibly end up being winnable as against a cult.

@bigpearl For some reason I am prevented from posting a complete answer but for the 20k I meant dollars, not pesos.

@Enzyte Bob

http://tinyurl.com/pkhjfhbf

Learning to read is helpful also. Digest.

Cheers, Steve.

@danfinn

Learn the system/s pros and cons, weigh it up for yourself. My budget has always allowed a 10 year replacement of batteries and maintenance.

Yes Dan I can read between the lines with Pesos v's US bucks. Know very well the costs.

Point is we are running a 2.5HP and 2 x 1 HP  A/C's currently, the batteries are fully charged by 12pm we are consuming 3.6Kw and the system is still throttled back to meet demand, more A/C units turned on? We have plenty but swap them around if not using that area. Perhaps a little like my Dad telling me when I/we were kids to turn the light off if you are finished in the room, a bit like revving the engine in your car because you like the sound? Ignorance rings a bell.

For me and my/our choice Dan is sure it eventually saves money but in the mean time we are reducing our C02 emissions by some 12 tons per year, as said no bl@@dy  blackouts and in control, the ability to flick 4 breakers and go back to the grid is the fit hits the shan.

We are more than happy with the investment.

Cheers, Steve.

    @Enzyte Bob
http://tinyurl.com/pkhjfhbf

Learning to read is helpful also. Digest.

Cheers, Steve.
   

    -@bigpearl

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What a cop out reply.

@Enzyte Bob

Seems deserved?

Cheers, Steve.

        The Spanish American War, now there was a spendid little war.   This Australian American War has about run its course.

@bigpearl Yes Dan I can read between the lines with Pesos v's US bucks. Know very well the costs.

Suggest you reread your initial comment. I said 20k, I should have said dollars but didn't so you called me on it laughing (actually) that $400 would not be enough for batteries. I was a bit surprised that you would bring it up given that it is obvious that pesos would not be enough.

And now you say you can/(could?) read between the lines. I was only trying to clear that up. But you had a good laugh 😂😂

I

Hope so mugteck.

Cheers, Steve.

An ode to the fartmobile:

An environmentalist full of dreams

Breathed life into the fartmobile machine

A bio hazard on four wheels

It burped, coughed and wheezed

A blast that brought people to their knees

Promised power of a different kind

A symphony of stench left behind

The upside is limited at the moment, but that's likely to change soon.

Add new battery tech and economics of quantity, and we will see price drops.

The lastest cars are claiming 1,000 miles with very fast charging - That's enough for everyone except very high milage drivers.

There are still plenty of issues to work out, but those of us who remember points in a distributor cap will know things get sorted out.

The doom and gloom mob are always looking for something to moan about, and big oil is scared stiff, but change is going to happen, and it's going to be fast.

Hello everyone,

Please note that certain posts have been deleted.

I kindly ask you to refrain from making unnecessary comments to prevent off-topic discussions in this thread.

Thank you,

Cheryl

Expat.com team

Oil fired power plants has an efficiency of 38%.

Conventional gasoline vehicles has 30% efficiency on the high side. For this post I will use 25%. EVs convert 77% of electrical energy to the wheels.

For comparison, let's assume the EVs get the energy from oil fired power plants.

So... to get the total conversion efficiency for powering the EV, we have: 38% x 77% = 29%.

29% EV vs 25% gasoline cars: EV wins not by much.

If the drivers on both cars have lead foot, the numbers change drastically. Oil Power plants have a great pollution control. They have scrubbers that remove pollutants from its exhaust. EV wins on the pollution control. We're only talking about fuel to run the vehicles on my post. I know what you're thinking. 😀

We know about the initial investment,  EVs cost about twice or more for a somewhat equivalent ICE vehicle. What the media is not talking about is the cost to charge an EV. My brother has 2 Tesla's: model 3 and X. Model X is about the size of Honda CR-V. He says it cost him about 18 Canadian loonies (Canadian dollars, eh?) to fully charge X on a regular basis at home. Say about a quarter of equivalent gasoline engine. But on commercial fast charger, one could pay about half or so plus the time spent waiting to fully charge (45 minutes). Conveniently, these chargers are by plazas that sell oily and salty food that is bad for your health.

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I saw a video about a 1 year old Hyundai Ioniq where the underbody battery cover got some scratches. The replacement of the battery was more than a brand new Hyundai Ionic. The insurance decided to scrap the vehicle since they will NOT pay the amount required to bring the vehicle to the condition it was before the damage since it is more than the value of the car. Imagine that.

Link to the video:

https://youtu.be/dr3mFzh0KSk?si=ACQ-3MlDaBFJfSUl

.

I'll stick to ICE vehicle.

Carbon monoxide never smelled sweeter.

@Jackson4 Way back in the 90's I read a study showing that for Ni-Cad, only 12% of the energy used to charge the battery was available for the battery to do work. That is extremely inefficient. In your post you do state that 77% of the energy stored in the battery turns the wheels but you do not give energy efficiency figures for charging the battery. I suspect it is similarly low. With a gasoline engine, obviously no such efficiency figure needs to be accounted for, not does the efficiency of power transmission (with its many losses) from power plant to home need to be considered although significant transportation fuel consumption adversely affects total gasoline energy efficiency. My point is that this is not a simple comparison and I really think reliable in-depth studies are not available yet. There are many different power generation technologies, fossil fuel shipment modes (including pipelines) and several other variables that must be considered individually for each situation.

You are correct danfinn, I did not consider the chargers efficiency (inefficiency) and power transmission loses. That goes the same for transporting crude oil and refining process.

Either way, I still believe EVs are not worth the investment. Cost of ownership plus cost to operate will be higher than ICE. Refueling convenience is still way behind.

..

Besides, mechanics does not the right to repair the EVs yet, so owners will have to pay steep prices in case a need arises.

If you have the means and a stable way to charge, go for it.

I've driven EVs stateside for the better part of a decade now and it's been great never having to visit a gas station in all that time. 

I was really surprised to see several Ionics and even a Tesla during my last trip to Cebu.  Also saw an electric Jeepney in Mactan.

Philippines seems like a great EV country since its all slow moving stop and go traffic that is great for regen breaking.

My take on this is that EVs build for the North American market are seriously overkill for a place like the Philippines.  They are hugely expensive and loaded with features to make their price higher and more profitable for manufacturers (and so are ICE vehicles).  For passenger vehicles and light trucks, a less feature rich, shorter range and less expensive option might fit the bill in the Philippines.  An extended range golf cart with aircon?  Use LiFePO4 batteries instead of Li-Ion (which should never be used in a moving vehicle IMO).

I've often lamented the inability to buy basic transportation in the US anymore:  A car or light truck with manual transmission, manual windows, etc.  Remember what really got the car industry going in the US was Ford's ability to build inexpensive cars for the masses, the Model T.  Before that cars were very expensive and only the wealthy had them.  Kind of like electric cars.  Most major car companies in the US are losing money on them and are having a hard time finding customers.

As the OP for this thread I have learnt much from all contributors and opinions and appreciate the input.

For us an EV now is a big waste of money as we only drive 5/6 K klicks a year even though we can charge on the solar system at home, zero Co2 emissions compared to plugging into a coal fired grid and probably more viable if you travel 20/40 K klicks a year to justify the cost and terrible depreciation on EV's.

A better investment would be/is grid or stand alone solar home systems to reduce Co2 and actually make money and not lose.

I have resigned myself to the use of ICE vehicles for the rest of my life, maybe in 10 plus years there will be better and cheaper systems whether hydrogen or some new development but at this stage EV's are too expensive and long trips have to be planned for charging stations and yes there are plenty being installed in the Philippines by various companies but the charge rate is twice the normal grid price (plug it in at home).

Why buy an Iconiq5 for 3.7M pesos when you can buy an equivalent ICE vehicle for half the price? Hold a better resale value etc.

Cheers, Steve. 

bigpearl said. . . . I have resigned myself to the use of ICE vehicles for the rest of my life,

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Same for me. Living in Metro Manila I don't have a car, I use grab. The recent round trip to Lander's was P400.

No road rage by me.

Whist it is very clear ICE remains king, and will do for at least a few more years, new battery tech will reduce battery prices because:

• Avoiding very expensive Lithium removes a major cost
• Economy of scale
• New electricity generating methods will come on tap

India's new non-Lithium battery tech looks very promising, as does Israel's extreme charging. Add other innovations still under development and that will be that for ICE cars. One Israeli company has some rather promising dynamic charging tech. I can't see it being much use for private cars, but it's nothing short of perfect for bus lanes. With a claimed charging rate against distance traveled of 1:1, that means only small batteries are required for lengths of road that don't have induction coils fitted. Given this tech was designed with China's most popular EV bus products in mind, I can see this being a winner in more than a few countries.

What we should keep an eye on is the EV motorbike industry. Developments there will eventually find their way into cars. That puts India and China bang in the middle of everything, a few EU manufacturers trying, and the rest of the world a couple of decades late.

Another thing to watch is high speed trains. The more you have more medium haul trips, the less attractive road trips or aircraft travel becomes.

Next up is the fixation many people/countries have with large cars. The very silly idea you need a monster truck to pop to the shops or drop the kids off at school is even more stupid than it is amazingly popular.

Last is good old fashioned capitalism. If oil companies are happy to remove governments and start wars to keep oil profits high, disrupting EV development is a nothing thing to them.

This is where the 'Just stop oil' nutters are wasting their time. The way to make oil stop is not to protest, block roads, and damage paintings, it's to open an EV business selling cheap Chinese motorbikes.

They'd get more cars off the month than they would in years of pointless idiotic protests.

As is often pointed out, most of the electricity used is fossil fuel based, but that's also a bit of a duff argument.

Whilst it's clearly true, it assumes change can't happen pretty quickly, but it can.

Fusion is no longer science fiction, but it is a good few years away, but renewables are available right now.

Geopolitical crap is slowing that down significantly as some governments won't have anything to do with Chinese tech, but that country is easily the world leader.  A system capable of charging an EV is nothing compared to how much you will spend on fuel over a year or two.

None of the above really applies to long distance drivers at the moment as charging facilitiesa are still a bit of a joke, but local drivers will start seeing cost effective alternatives to ICE really quite soon.

Agree Bob, we lived in Manila 13 years ago and the last thing I considered was a car even though we had an empty car space in the condo. That was prior to Grab and Uber but the planes, trains and general public transport worked fine,,,,,,, in the province is a little different so wheels and independence works better for us now.

As for road rage? Never for us, while the traffic can be chaotic it seems to work even when driving in and around Manila.

OMO.

Cheers, Steve.

The motorbike is by far the most common form of transportation in many Asian countries. Cheap (so fits more pockets), generally reasonable weather, and ease of everything when getting around town and parking, makes the motorbike a winner.

This is why I suggest watching the EV bike industry. I can't say what's happening over there, but mostly Chinese (but some local brands) are slowing taking over the market here.

Honda and Yam aren't dead yet, but they have fallen far behind in the most important field - public acceptance of EV over ICE.

EV is normal here and more and more people are buying them as they tend to cost less, and can be charged at home far cheaper than filling up with petrol.

The major ride and delivery apps are going more and more EV, and that's driving the EV bike market for the rest of the population.

That will, in the not too distant future, translate to EV cars.

I read your post Fred and it took me back 25 years to a protest in our farming community with regards to a cell tower that was proposed for the area, many meetings and the sceptics while all holding their mobile phones next to their heads complained that our children will be irradiated,,,,,, I stated many times at these meetings why do you have a mobile phone? What about the power cables running in the walls while you are sleeping etc. 5 years later the tower was built and the diehards moved away holding their cellphones ready for the next battle.

Progress won't be stopped, stifled at times but I thank my lucky stars that I am not on horseback and can flick a switch and turn on a light and sit on a computer connected to the world,,,,,, remember Encyclopedias that were always out of date?

A long way to go yet to make inexpensive modes of travel while confronting the pushback from Oligarchs and those that line political pockets. You can't stop progress and never will.

EV's are far too expensive for the average punter and the average punter is the market share making money for those on the top.

Sorry for my rant.

Cheers, Steve.

Recent articles...

No one wants used EVs, making new ones a tougher sell too

(Link, The Straits Times, Singapore 26/12/23)

The "Electric Vehicle Revolution" Is DOA

(Link, jdrucker Substack 23/12/23)

    Recent articles...
No one wants used EVs, making new ones a tougher sell too
(Link, The Straits Times, Singapore 26/12/23)

The "Electric Vehicle Revolution" Is DOA
(Link, jdrucker Substack 23/12/23)
   

    -@Aidan in HCMC

This week.

What about next week?

This sort of stuff, whilst often true at fthe time, soon goes away as technology advances.

The Americans have need of the telephone, but we [the British] do not. We have plenty of messenger boys. – William Preece.

He went down as one of history's many fools.

Look forward to what can happen, and never get stuck in a bog of zero imagination like silly Willy.

Simple economics Aiden, little less.

Put solar on your home, your neighbours home if you can afford and don't waste your carbon credits on EV's. Over priced and taxed it seems.

The reductions in emissions will be a far better investment than the currently offered alternatives in the EV market.

We are saving PH currently 15K per month and will rise to 18/20K per month when we move into the extensions,,,,,,, that's ongoing, added value to the property, no black outs, ROI 6/7 years. An EV seems to be an ego trip and no matter what you buy seems you will lose 50% of the purchase price in 3/4 years. Bad investment at this stage.

I'm keen to learn more about what Toyota is creating with ICE running on H2o converted to hydrogen while you drive, fill your tank with distilled water, you still get the exhaust sound and the ICE engine running for the rev heads but fill up with H2o,,,,,, 5/10 years we will see if they don't get squashed by the big boys.

OMO.

Cheers, Steve.

https://electrek.co/2024/01/05/byd-brea … ery-plant/

This is better than it looks. The small mention of small cars is a bigger thing than its mention suggests.

The key to sustainable personal city transport is small, clean at point of use, vehicles.

Imagine a city where 3 cars can park where only two can now, the air is free of exhaust fumes, and it's massively quieter.

This requires two things:

• Good advertising changing public perceptions
• Government pushing cheap EVs with big tax and other incentives

Consider what people would do if small EV parking places were always in prime locations near supermarket doors or, in the case of street parking, nearest the most popular everything.

Once battery prices fall, the rest can happen.

          Just saw a Chinese company claims they have developed a nuclear cell phone battery which does not have to be recharged for 50 years.   Can such a vehicle battery be available soon?

mugteck said. . . . Just saw a Chinese company claims they have developed a nuclear cell phone battery which does not have to be recharged for 50 years.   Can such a vehicle battery be available soon?

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I read the same article about the "Betavolt Atomic Battery". Will I-Phone make phones with a 50 year guarantee,  or Tesla with a nuclear battery for cars last 50 years?
   

 

🤣🤣🤣

Or irradiate the local area when things go wrong?

I'll stick to my solar panels and an ICE vehicle for now.

Cheers, Steve.

    mugteck said. . . . Just saw a Chinese company claims they have developed a nuclear cell phone battery which does not have to be recharged for 50 years.   Can such a vehicle battery be available soon?
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I read the same article about the "Betavolt Atomic Battery". Will I-Phone make phones with a 50 year guarantee,  or Tesla with a nuclear battery for cars last 50 years?     
   

    -@Enzyte Bob

It has one drawback. In the case of a serious accident, a nuclear powered car is likely to be a write off, as are the nearest three towns.

you will glow in the dark.

Wow stuleer that could be nice.

OMO but I think mugteck should/could provide a link to the info he read so we can all make a decision, ICE, EV's or?

Cheers, Steve.

Here's one article:         https://www.independent.co.uk/tech/nucl … 76979.html

Apple is taking preorders for nuclear earbuds, Lloyd's of London is offering the cancer insurance.

              Just saw a Chinese company claims they have developed a nuclear cell phone battery which does not have to be recharged for 50 years.   Can such a vehicle battery be available soon?
   

    -@mugteck

This will help control the increase of the earth's population.

The tech is very old, but the Chinese eggheads appear to have miniaturised it.

It, looking at the reports, is likely to take a year or two before it's usable, and we have no idea about costs when it hits the retail market.

However, this is eactly the sort of thing that might well change the viability of EVs

Range anxiety and charging times are the biggest issues at the moment, but tech of this sort has the potential to create a car with unlimited range and zero ongoing fuel costs.

Think how much that will save over the average life of a car.

        mugteck said. . . . Just saw a Chinese company claims they have developed a nuclear cell phone battery which does not have to be recharged for 50 years.   Can such a vehicle battery be available soon?************************I read the same article about the "Betavolt Atomic Battery". Will I-Phone make phones with a 50 year guarantee,  or Tesla with a nuclear battery for cars last 50 years?              -@Enzyte Bob

It has one drawback. In the case of a serious accident, a nuclear powered car is likely to be a write off, as are the nearest three towns.
   

    -@Fred

Actually it is thought to be quite safe. This is not an electrochemical battery that stores bulk electrons attached to something like lithium & which violently explodes and burns when stable charge storage is disrupted. Violent energy release is what we are used to with regular batteries. This betavoltaic technology is not chemical at all, it is much different. You can take some radioactive source like tritium (used for betavoltaics by the USA and Soviets in the 60's) or the nickel 60 isotope used by the Chinese company Betavolt today. Those isotopes will never explode, nobody is creating fission or fusion and the battery is not thermo nuclear like a nuclear power plant using heat and steam to turn generators, it simply uses the energy of natural isotope decay that emits bets particles to directly produce electricity in a semiconductor. Nothing will happen to these batteries if you hit them with a hammer, drop them or heat them up to the temperature of the surface of Venus. What they do is create a super efficient, very thin diamond semiconductor. This is man-made diamond created by an evaporation process, much more robust than silicon. The cool part is that you sandwich the sheets of isotope nickel 60 between the semiconductor; the decay of beta particles (ie, "electrons") into the semiconductors creates holes and electron flow or, electricity. Nickel 60 will do this for 50 years as it slowly turns into non-rafioactive copper. Betavolt is also looking at more powerful sources such as strontium 90 maybe in 2026; much more powerful but only lasting about 2 years. I wonder, should we even call this a battery? The tech is not new but credit must be given to the Chinese company to take the financial risk is developing this just as they must be given credit for their work on fusion. My country used to be in the forefront on new technology and hopefully will  return to that position in the near future. But for now, it is the Chinese, the PRC Chinese.