Teaching job in HCMC without contract. Help please.

Your best bet is to come without a job on a tourist visa and then when you find a job, the company, as long as they are reputable, will help you sort a work permit etc.

There are a lot of jobs at the moment, so you'll have no problems

jegziie wrote:

Hi everyone I want to move to HCM to teach asap. I currently live in the Uk, I have a degree and TEFL certificate. I got a job offer in Hanoi already but I dont want to be tied down to a contract. Is it smart if I just come over to HCMC and look for work when I get there? How easy will it be and what visa will I need etc? Might I run into lega trouble ? Can anyone offer me help or advice please ?

To obtain a Work Permit (WP) you must have a contract.  It is part of the package that the school submits to DOLISA (Dept. of Labor, Invalids & Social Affairs.)  My own contract was fortunately written in such a way that basically either party could break it without penalty.  I think it may have had a thirty day notice clause.  Other contracts may be more draconian with specific penalties for early termination.   Yes you can come to HCMC on a tourist visa but once you get a WP you may need to make a visa run to Cambodia to establish your new status.   Working with a WP entitles you to a Temporary Residence Card and removes the need for any visa.  Working without a WP is basically illegal.  Granted, it is a real long shot and thousands work without one, but it could lead to deportation.

Hi and welcome to the forum.

Yes, you can come to Vietnam on a tourist or business visa to look for jobs.
English teaching jobs are everywhere in HCM. You can always find the best deal while you are in the city. No worries.

Once you find a suitable employer and sign a labour contract, your employer will help you get a Work Permit and subsequently a work visa or TRC.
It's illegal to work in Vietnam without a valid WP.
People who work without WPs do it at their own risks.

jegziie wrote:

... but I dont want to be tied down to a contract.

Wherever you choose to work you have to sign a labour contract with your employer.
Without a labour contract you won't be able to get a work permit.
If you don't sign a contract and choose to work without a WP, you leave yourself vulnerable to professional exploitation (mostly non-payment of salary etc.)  by unscrupulous employers.

Welcome to Vietnam!

Thanks for your responses. I have lots of questions.
When I get to hcm how do I go about finding schools/language centres?
Do I take a one way ticket, will I be allowed into the country?
What docs do I need to bring?
Also I am black, might it be difficult to find work ?
Accomodation, can I rent on a tourist/business visa?
What kind of contracts do the schools give. I want to be flexible and not tied to say a one year 40 hours in school contract.

jegziie wrote:

When I get to hcm how do I go about finding schools/language centres?

English schools are literally everywhere just around the corner.
Here's a list of some popular ELT schools in HCM.

jegziie wrote:

Do I take a one way ticket, will I be allowed into the country?

Usually they don't want to see a return flight ticket.
However, a few months back, one poster here said he was asked to show his return flight ticket.
If you travel with a one-way ticket you can just tell them (if asked) you have plans to travel to Cambodia overland.

A recent thread on one-way ticket. https://www.expat.com/forum.
Also, make sure the Airlines you fly with doesn't have any restriction on that.

jegziie wrote:

What docs do I need to bring?

Copies of Degree, TEFL cert., experience certificate (if any) .... all of these MUST be legalized by the Embassy of Vietnam in London.
Ref: changes-to-notarial-and-documentary-services-in-vietnam

jegziie wrote:

Also I am black, might it be difficult to find work ?

You should try to get a standard contract (min 1 year) from a reputable ELT center.

jegziie wrote:

Accomodation, can I rent on a tourist/business visa?

Yes, you can.
Ask your landlord to register you with the local police in his/her Blue Book.
All foreigners living in rented accommodations in Vietnam need to do that.

jegziie wrote:

What kind of contracts do the schools give. I want to be flexible and not tied to say a one year 40 hours in school contract.

Not clear exactly what you mean by "flexible".
My understanding is, a labour contract is a commitment.
Your contract may/may not have flexible hours of working/teaching. That part you can surely negotiate with your employer.

If you work for agencies who supply teachers to public schools, you may get flexible hours in multiple locations but you still need to sign a labour contract for at least 1 year and apply for a WP.

Cheers!

Oh thank you so much. Very helpful. Yes I mean flexible hours. The contract I was offered in Hanoi requires me to be in the school for 45 hours a week even though teaching hours is 22 hours a week. And I am not happy about that. Esp the start time is 7:45 that is too early for me!

jegziie wrote:

Yes I mean flexible hours. The contract I was offered in Hanoi requires me to be in the school for 45 hours a week even though teaching hours is 22 hours a week. And I am not happy about that. Esp the start time is 7:45 that is too early for me!

If you choose to work for the agencies, you must be very careful because most labour-contract violations take place in that sort of jobs.
Also, you won't get other benefits and allowances which ESL teachers working in reputed centers often get.

Btw, you should have a "Police Clearance Check" from your country and get it legalized from VN embassy in London, before you come to Vietnam.

Many reputed ELT centers also supply teachers to public schools.
Most of them have ELT programs for different age-groups.
Once in HCM, you can talk to them directly and try to set up a mutually convenient weekly schedule.

Depends where you want to live, if you are prepared to live away from the expat areas there is plenty of work. I can give you the contact at a school that you may get some work at in D9 and Thu Duc.

jegziie wrote:

Oh thank you so much. Very helpful. Yes I mean flexible hours. The contract I was offered in Hanoi requires me to be in the school for 45 hours a week even though teaching hours is 22 hours a week. And I am not happy about that. Esp the start time is 7:45 that is too early for me!

Schools start very early here compared to the UK so that's something you'll have to just get used to.

Dont work in the public system, get into a language center.

thank you so much for your help everyone, any contacts you can put me through will be greatly appreciated.

the contract  I was offered in Hanoi says $1000 of my salary will be reserved for visa fees etc and reimbursed at the end of the contract. does this seem fair? it seems excessive in my opinion.

To be honest, I have met many people who took jobs before arriving here and many of them were shafted.

As far as them holding 1000 usd, you could say bye bye to that money if you took that job.

jegziie wrote:

the contract  I was offered in Hanoi says $1000 of my salary will be reserved for visa fees etc and reimbursed at the end of the contract. does this seem fair? it seems excessive in my opinion.

Not sure what the current trend is in ELT jobs across Vietnam.
I never faced such 'conditions' from my employers in VN or elsewhere in Asia in the past almost 15 years.
Most of them were universities and all my visas (etc.) were taken care of by them.

I understand, many ESL teachers leave their jobs in the middle of a term to find better opportunities ... which, IMO, should best be avoided unless absolutely unavoidable.
Such reckless actions, mostly for professional and financial gains, can be disastrous for their innocent students.
In some other Asian countries they take serious punitive actions for such opportunistic labour-contract violations.
VN is more lenient on that.

I reckon that's the reason why your employer wants to withhold $1000 from your salary as a safeguard against any possible breach of contract on your part.
If they are the ones paying for your visa and WP, more reasons why they want to keep their investment safe.

Anyways, I don't think that's the normal trend in ESL jobs all over VN.
As already advised, you should apply for jobs in the reputed ELT centers and see what conditions they put on your service contracts.
You need to convince your future employers that you're not going to break your contract under any circumstances.

Good luck!

Yes it's excessive.  Consider that this venture http://www.vietnam-immigration.org.vn/n … igner.html charges $320 for doing all the paperwork and fees in obtaining a WP.  I paid my lawyer, who was moonlighting from her corporate job $200 before my school changed policy and began to pay the fees.  The actual government fee is $135 but even in Vietnam running around time is not entirely free. 

If anything, not more than $500 might be appropriate to protect the school from non-completion as senwl suggests.  Also consider that at $1000, depending on when in the month you start, your first monthly pay could be zero, leaving you with 30 more days to see any money at all.

that's really what I am worried about, I understand the need to make sure people hold up their end of the contract but I will be left with $600 of pay for the first and second months, after $500 deduction from $1,100 which is not enough money considering I won't be paid until about 6-8 weeks after I arrive. so far it seems my best bet is to arrive first, I am only concerned about having to sort out work and legal papers myself

please does anyone know what health check I need to do to teach? What do I need to be tested for, can I do it here in the Uk before coming

jegziie wrote:

please does anyone know what health check I need to do to teach? What do I need to be tested for, can I do it here in the Uk before coming

See my post #6 in this thread https://www.expat.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=732963 that I mistakenly posted thinking that the OP was from the UK.  Because of recent UK policy changes, you will need to have your police record check, Baccalaureate diploma, and TEFL certificate certified and translated by the VN Embassy in London. 

The health check can only be done in VN as far as I know.  It will not be expensive and your employer should be able to direct you to one of several choices of hospital.  I went to Thong Nhat Hospital simply because it was not too far from my home.  They had a dedicated area for the physical and numbered stations to go to so that you would not need to know any Vietnamese.  They test for many things but, unless you had active TB or active Hepatitis (stress on active,) everyone should pass.

Thanks, you're a star.

jegziie wrote:

that's really what I am worried about, I understand the need to make sure people hold up their end of the contract but I will be left with $600 of pay for the first and second months, after $500 deduction from $1,100 which is not enough money considering I won't be paid until about 6-8 weeks after I arrive. so far it seems my best bet is to arrive first, I am only concerned about having to sort out work and legal papers myself

You had a bad contract from a stingy employer.
To the best of my knowledge, standard hourly rate for a trained and qualified ESL teacher in VN is anything between $17 to $25 per hour.
@ 22 hours per week,  the salary offered to you was nowhere near the going rate.
As a qualified and trained ELT from England you deserve minimum $20 an hour.
Next time you negotiate a contract with an employer, please make sure that you are not underpaid.

Also, make sure they are talking about NET or GROSS salary. (calculator)
VN PIT slabs for taxable income, 2017
Income up to 9 million VND a month is exempt from PIT.

As advised, bring all your legalized certificates and a legalized police check with you.
Health check up you can do here. It's easy and will cost around $100 from Care-1, Family Medical.
If your papers are in order, sorting out your Work Permit etc. won't be a problem.

If you have some experience in teaching, you can try in www.britishcouncil.vn/.
Excellent pay and a non-discriminatory work culture!
In Hanoi, they have this language school. You can try there if you prefer Hanoi.

I thought about the wages too but its 1100$ tax free and they provide accomodation or 400$ towards accomodation which would bring it up to about 17$ an hour however they expect me to be at the school 45 hours a week and I just think thats not enough money!

You better do your sums again. 45 hours a week is about 200 hours a month. 1100 usd + 400 usd for accommadation = 1500 usd, which  is about 7.50 usd an hour.

The actual teaching hours are 22 though. Am I to include the hours also spent at school? And is it normal practice to mandatorily be in the school even outside your teaching hours?

Sit down and think about it.

Most schools will not pay you for the non-teaching hours unless you insist upon it.
They consider lesson preparation and marking as part of your teaching responsibility.
They will also try to find excuses to dump admin works on you from time to time.

As long as you are well prepared for your lessons, they have no right to tie you down to their office desk for mandatory 45 hrs per week. They don't pay you for that.
Most teachers do their preparations at home.. sometimes in office.

Please be firm and candid about it when you talk to your new employer.

I can tell by what you have written that this will not be a good employer. Yet again I will say this...wait till you arrive here to get a job.

thanks for all your information. can I ask what you all do in regards to medical/health insurance? what's the cost? do you sort it out yourself or via your employer?

I have looked at price tickets and I am thinking of heading out Dec 4th but I have not thought of accomodation!! what is my best option?

jegziie wrote:

I have looked at price tickets and I am thinking of heading out Dec 4th but I have not thought of accomodation!! what is my best option?

For the 1st one/two week/s stay in an Airbnb flat/room. 
HCMC hostels could be another choice.
Later you can find an affordable long-term accommodation through local search.

1312j wrote:

Your best bet is to come without a job on a tourist visa and then when you find a job, the company, as long as they are reputable, will help you sort a work permit etc.

There are a lot of jobs at the moment, so you'll have no problems

I would beg to differ and recommend the purchase of a Business-VISA instead. Get it on arrival. I messed up and hat to fly out to make up for that. My mistake #2 was to follow bad advice and buy  12 months' B-VISA, which was expensive. And unnecessary. As a WP... lets you stay in Vietnam.

YMMV, but I have encountered major cultural issues with non-teachers in management. Someone wanted to tell me  w h a t  to do in my beginners' classes. Kindergarten? Gotta have fancy PP presentations!

So a fun 90 minutes class requiring 2 hours of preparation,, because a non-pro thinks this is how it must be done? You better sort this out right away! I would rather pay for an assistant to handle these aspects of the job, TBH.

Life's too short. Some people want you to get bogged down with silly hard work.

colinoscapee wrote:

To be honest, I have met many people who took jobs before arriving here and many of them were shafted.

As far as them holding 1000 usd, you could say bye bye to that money if you took that job.

...

I'm seconding Colinoscapee. My former employer i. took a month's salary "for the job" from Vietnamese teachers. ii. One day, they wanted each foreigner to lend them 7,000.000 d. Yeah, right. I chose to leave. Got shafted nonetheless.

One contract specified me getting "a motorcycle". It has never materialized. Couldn't ride it. Be aware that paper is patient...
...

TBH, you might be careful when they do not offer you a contract. Because then you may find out that you have worked for free... Get it? They love to kick tyres!

Can you get a part-time contract? Mornings at government schools, allowing you to work at ESL centers in the evening?

Good luck, OP!

Yalllll i am mad confused right now. So i am in HMC now. I got a job. Good pay and hours. But two of the schools are in Go Vap and the other in Phu Tanh (?) which is one hour from the go vap school. I just been around Go vap and this place is far and locallllll. I already accepted the job offer and I am eager to start work so I can start earning. I do not know what to do now.

I dont understand why you took both these jobs without knowing where they are situated.

I don't understand what the problem s!

Choose the one that you feel suits you best and tell the other one that you're homesick/headng home.
If things don't work out with A, you contact B and tell them that you changed your mind; would they be so kind as to give you another opportunity.

In Go Vap if you are teaching at either Nguyen Du or Nguyen Tri middle schools you will be fine.  The others could be a trying experience.  I didn't teach there but Go Vap high school should be OK, while Nguyen Trung Truc will be difficult.  Vietnamese schools track students by academic ability.  Phun Nhuan high school also has a good reputation and several Go Vap students try to get district exceptions to go to school there.

jegziie wrote:

I just been around Go vap and this place is far and locallllll.

Far from what?  When I first moved to Go Vap a Viet Kieu friend told me that he didn't know how anyone could live there as it was nothing but "rau muống patches and whorehouses."  Of course the last time he had been there was during the war.  It is now really just an extension of the urban core.  The whorehouses are still there, although probably in diminished numbers since the American GI's left, but he rau muống is long gone.

thank you for this !

thanks. all schools are the same employer, I was just confused as to what to do but it's all calm now.

jegziie wrote:

thanks. all schools are the same employer, I was just confused as to what to do but it's all calm now.

Can you name the schools?  Different employers have contracts for different schools.  This is likely a source of graft for district level employees but that's another whole discussion.  I can't help much with elementary schools but I could perhaps help further if I knew the names of the schools (by PM if you like.)