Wine House, Press house. living rights, renovation, extending?

Arch4291 wrote:

What are the laws surrounding these properties. we are not planning on living in our wine house but we will be renovating the property next spring. (if we can travel)

I read an article about this a couple of years ago, i can not find where i read this now.

I am thinking of adding a dormer window in the roof space and maybe extending the balcony. Do i need permission for this?

Any info surrounding this topic would be massively appreciated.

Thank you in advance.

If you change the external appearance then you generally need permission from the local planning office.  You cannot increase the built in area beyond your zoning - e.g. if you have a plot of 1000m2 and zone is 25%, then your built in area maximum is 250m2. 

New openings need permission, i.e. dormer windows.  Balcony is likely structural so yes, you should get permission. But it's not a big deal - you just need someone to submit the plans and to get to the decree.  This means producing plot type plans and then engineering drawings and sectional views.  Once you get the decree/permission you can fiddle with it a bit as they may not check - i.e. you could move the window somewhat but not excessively.  We inserted another Velux type window in our roof  because we needed roof access to a chimney and it wasn't shown on the original plans approved by the government. 

When it came for permission to live in the house, they didn't even come out.  They just asked for some photos.  We got the permission just a few days after submitting the photos.  I think they just wanted to see it wasn't bodged.  We had "professional builders" (who couldn't make a straight wall if they tried nor could they understand water doesn't flow uphill anywhere, never mind Hungary).

You have to be on site to make sure they are doing it right.  It needs plenty of monitoring.

Even now, maybe 4 years after we were able to move in, we've not been able to finish our house because we cannot find anyone to do the landscaping, drains, underground water storage, garden paths, driveway,  walls and gates.  They don't seem to be interested.   It really annoys me - most builders only want to build entire houses.   Something wrong with how we're approaching it. I think we need to get a designer to do the outside parts, then find a builder.

So even if you got permission, you might not be able to find anyone to do it.

Hi Fluffy

Thank you for this info it is very useful.

regarding the permission was your property previously a wine house / holiday cottage?

It seems strange that the builders do not want to do that work for you as it sounds like you have quite a bit of work there.

Fortunately i will not need a builder as i will be doing the work my self and have water running to the property. The electrics will be solar, most likely only 12 or 24v system as it is a much cheaper option and the gas will be lpg from a bottle.

how do you get by with no grey water storage, where does your waste water go to? i have no drainage at the moment and will be putting a tank in. is it easy enough to get a company to come and empty the tank?

Have you thought about putting the tank in your self?. maybe just hire a labourer to dig the hole and trenches for the pipe work.

Arch4291 wrote:

Hi Fluffy

Thank you for this info it is very useful.

regarding the permission was your property previously a wine house / holiday cottage?

It seems strange that the builders do not want to do that work for you as it sounds like you have quite a bit of work there.

Fortunately i will not need a builder as i will be doing the work my self and have water running to the property. The electrics will be solar, most likely only 12 or 24v system as it is a much cheaper option and the gas will be lpg from a bottle.

how do you get by with no grey water storage, where does your waste water go to? i have no drainage at the moment and will be putting a tank in. is it easy enough to get a company to come and empty the tank?

Have you thought about putting the tank in your self?. maybe just hire a labourer to dig the hole and trenches for the pipe work.

We don't live in a wine house.  We effectively live in the suburbs of Budapest in a typical street.   

We learnt when we tried to find a house and going through some costings, it was just too expensive to have a plot without the full set of services being available on site. It costs too much to lay them on.   That means availability on site of water, gas, electricity, main drainage and telephone.    We still don't have the phone service from Telekom even though we have a cable there. We get the phone service from the cable TV people.  The phone line is 30m away but there's no capacity in the street cabinets.

So we bought an older place that was fully serviced, knocked most of it down and rebuilt it from scratch almost. 

The water on site I mentioned was simply storage of rainwater for the garden.  We also considered a well but if you want that for drinking water, it's got to be officially tested.  For domestic use - at least here where my house is - we can take 6m3 per day. 

For the drains, we want the drains in the garden replaced.  It's a job involving diggers and workers. I could do it myself but my back wouldn't hold up to it and I want it done asap.   We want a driveway but the current manholes in the way are not suitable for driving vehicles over so everything needs replacing properly.   

We found the selected builder (not my choice, the Mrs wants him) had no clue about this basic construction work and was faffing about trying to waffle his way through it.  In the end, I had to show him a simple solution out of a local pipe supplier and he seems shocked.     That's typical here.   Can build a wall but cannot wire a plug.  No concept of a general building contractor it seems.   You know, I can Google the same as everyone else.

We find also that builders can follow plans but cannot draw them properly.   They cannot "design" and then execute.    What can one say.

I'm very frustrated.   It's been 2-3 years we've been trying to fix the landscaping and the drainage of rainwater in the garden.  Now we're resorting to bodging like trying to get 2-3 tonnes of aggregate dumped in the garden so we ourselves can try and level out a place to park our car.  It's ridiculous - went to the local stone and gravel place but guy wasn't there.  Did he ring back? Of course not.   Have to find someone else who wants to do it.   

Regarding the direct question on the grey water, we had a septic tank here but it was not used. Since the 1990s the installation of main drainage has always been a modernisation policy here.  So our tank is still there but needs to be removed.  It's below ground and we use it as a soakaway.  We plan to remove the concrete tank and rebuild the supporting walls for an underground water tank.  At the moment, we think 5000 litres is more than enough.   All of this means hiring workers as it needs heavy lifting but most don't seem to be interested.  I've considered hiring my own digger and sorting out myself using the in-laws.

I'm pretty good with many building and construction things but some jobs are just too big for one person - needs two or three. 

Only yesterday I replaced the air vent on my soil pipe (not as simple as it might seem) and bathroom ventilation fans pipework in my roof. Over the COVID period I've fully rewired my outbuilding/shed  - electricity and cabling is easy for me, built metal wood storage racks  and done loads of other stuff like car repairs etc. 

All good but it's not really doing the "big stuff" like supporting walls, paths, drives and the drains.

I am quite simple on the topic of acquiring of properties (or businesses), when you are a foreigner, you have little contacts, one will be ripped off no matter where in this world (just people are practical and I understand).
Even if one is very "handy", one always needs help. I know I am being ripped off (on a relative basis), this is fine. Best to buy something finished, does not matter if it is a wine-yard (or dental clinic). Building in my view is far more expensive than just taking over.
Even returning Hungarians have to pay higher prices.  (Again I fully understand, we are rich and have no contacts, why not make use of it).

My advice, get one good contact (if you trust) pay him or her much more than average, and he/she can arrange. Doing something yourself much more expensive in my view.

cdw057 wrote:

I am quite simple on the topic of acquiring of properties (or businesses), when you are a foreigner, you have little contacts, one will be ripped off no matter where in this world (just people are practical and I understand).
Even if one is very "handy", one always needs help. I know I am being ripped off (on a relative basis), this is fine. Best to buy something finished, does not matter if it is a wine-yard (or dental clinic). Building in my view is far more expensive than just taking over.
Even returning Hungarians have to pay higher prices.  (Again I fully understand, we are rich and have no contacts, why not make use of it).

My advice, get one good contact (if you trust) pay him or her much more than average, and he/she can arrange. Doing something yourself much more expensive in my view.

The first three things in buying a property are location, location, location.

Mrs Fluffy always does the first contact with workers and I keep my mouth shut until absolutely necessary.  As soon as they hear my accent, the price goes up.  All foreigners are rich of course.

Sometimes one has to build oneself.  We struggled to find a pre-built house to support our needs.  Just nothing available in the price range. 

Therefore we just had to take on a project.  So within 300m of our apartment - now too small - we found a house using an agent who we'd had contact with before.  The owner had died and his kids no longer lived there so it had been empty about 4 years. Downstairs was an apartment of the old man and the upstairs was an apartment occupied previously by the daughter and her two kids. 

Our house was a 1970s mess of a two generation house in our village.  Nothing had been done for 40 years.  This village is where the kids go to school so that's where we should stay rather than moving somewhere else.   Kids can walk to school, have their friends and it's really easy to get into the city using public transport.

For fit all of us in properly, the whole thing needed to be rebuilt.  No other option.  We hired an inspector to check the orginal building work, hired a building engineer to do the designs and calculations and get it through the planning process.   

Then we needed a builder who we got through the building engineer.  We had 3 quotes from different builders and we chose the middle one.  To be honest we should have chosen the higher priced one but we didn't have the money at the time.  We had to limit what we could do. 

I actually think there's an element of over inflating prices so I don't think there's much to gain by offering more money.  You've already been ripped off to some extent anyway.

There are a lot of potential points of failure.  It took us 3-4 months just to get the main gas pipe moved.  Needed three different people.  It forced us to stay in our apartment.  Even the electricity took 2 months. 

In retrospect we should have included all the external landscaping works upfront but it was a money and priority question at the time.

Sometimes capitalism is good (for me and my wife anyhow), my "contact" is being paid if he has success, so the problem of arranging things becomes his. It worked for quite some topics (electricity, a bit of roofing, ...) of course we always have to be dilligent. Perhaps we do not do things as we should but for the most part it works (or worked). I personally am relatively happy and so is our contact.
In my view real estate agents are also practical (they know people). Anyhow, I am a big amateur myself so I will not reach out myself to providers, and yes I am probably getting ripped off, but that is all fine (as long as we do not have to repair too many things (ie building things from scratch)).
"Blackmail" is sometimes a good thing, eg we bought our house provided it would be fenced all around with certain conditions. (it worked out quite fine).
For my company I have an accountant, I consider my house contact a bit the same (for him EUR 100 pm is a lot (for me as well) (but getting rid of negotiations etc is also worth something). BTW the 100 pm includes grass cutting. Effective grass cutting 1500 m2 (total 3000 m2)
We also have a pond and as a service he brings certain types of maintenance things and keeps the pump in order (for our well), in return some gold-fish for him (we have far too many anyhow (partially linked to keep the pond in good condition (win-win).

Bottom line, I am being ripped off, HOWEVER less with assistance then if without.

cdw057 wrote:

Sometimes capitalism is good (for me and my wife anyhow), my "contact" is being paid if he has success, so the problem of arranging things becomes his. It worked for quite some topics (electricity, a bit of roofing, ...) of course we always have to be dilligent. Perhaps we do not do things as we should but for the most part it works (or worked). I personally am relatively happy and so is our contact.
In my view real estate agents are also practical (they know people). Anyhow, I am a big amateur myself so I will not reach out myself to providers, and yes I am probably getting ripped off, but that is all fine (as long as we do not have to repair too many things (ie building things from scratch)).
"Blackmail" is sometimes a good thing, eg we bought our house provided it would be fenced all around with certain conditions. (it worked out quite fine).
For my company I have an accountant, I consider my house contact a bit the same (for him EUR 100 pm is a lot (for me as well) (but getting rid of negotiations etc is also worth something). BTW the 100 pm includes grass cutting. Effective grass cutting 1500 m2 (total 3000 m2)
We also have a pond and as a service he brings certain types of maintenance things and keeps the pump in order (for our well), in return some gold-fish for him (we have far too many anyhow (partially linked to keep the pond in good condition (win-win).

Bottom line, I am being ripped off, HOWEVER less with assistance then if without.

It's just a matter of money.  If we had a gadzillion whatever, we could do anything using workers but here I have to do stuff to either get it done faster or to save spending stupid money or just because we cannot find anyone to do it.    It's really strange. We agreed a price for our landscaping and the guy doesn't turn up.    No call, no e-mail or anything.   On the other hand the same guy turned up with 3 others once and did one fence.  WTF?

Example of being ripped off - some guy said 400K HUF to fit some guttering around our balcony. We said OK as I didn't want to work up a  high ladder for days on end.   Guy doesn't turn up.    Mrs Fluffy and I decided we'd had enough.  So we just went and bought the stuff ourselves and I did it myself over about a week couple of hours a day.   Total cost EUR 200 plus my expensive time.  I'd call that a close call.  I'd have paid him 400K HUF so I could do something else more profitable but in the end I think I made a better job of it.

There's no way to negotiate with the gas or electricity companies. Hiring some intermediary is not going to help. They'll do it when they feel like it.  They've outsourced a lot of their work so one has to wait for their subcontractors to get on site.  We went through three subcontractors just to move our gas meter from one place to another - only about 10m.  You cannot move it yourself.   Some of them came around, quoted, we accepted one of them.  Never turned up.  Eventually one of them put it in incorrectly as they did it when we weren't there and never told us.  We came back and it was moved.  Painfully ridiculous. 

The power company had to send a specific guy to make a new hookup.  All the regulations had changed in 40 years so all new stuff needed - meters and so on.    No way to avoid that. House was completely rewired anyway so new cables in the street wasn't a large step.   They had to come with a cherry picker to rewire.

Mrs Fluffy is a native, speaks Hungarian perfectly and is used to dealing with people like that.  But she finds it hard work.

Sorry to hear about mishaps, neither me nor my wife speak Hungarian, but we do speak German (and Dutch, English, Russian between us). So far our experiences (we live here now for 6 years) have been quite good. (Probably we have just been lucky).
Intermediary (gardener), real estate agent and neighbors have proved that they can arrange for people to do things on time. Of course we also had some less positive experiences, but all in all better than in Luxembourg, UK.  (I have to say for services (including sticking to (even verbal) agreements, Netherlands was best)
HUF 400 K sounds like a big investment, I am amazed/shocked that people just do not show up.
Our intermediary knows our requirements
1. Being on time and deliver (even if quality is not 100%  (most of the time it is though))

As a practical thing apart from Corona times, once or two times per year we invite those who help and are close to a meal in restaurant or at home (just to keep (and create) contacts. (I think it also helps but am not fully sure).

If you live close to Keszthely (lets say within 30 km radius) I can check with my guys to see if they could help out.  Just drop me a note. (I just do not want to be held responsible for any results at any time (I am happy but perhaps I just have low standards).

We know some re-migrating Hungarians and I know they have their issues too in getting things arranged, people just know and they rip-off them almost equally. (sad really).

cdw057 wrote:

Sorry to hear about mishaps, neither me nor my wife speak Hungarian, but we do speak German (and Dutch, English, Russian between us). So far our experiences (we live here now for 6 years) have been quite good. (Probably we have just been lucky).
Intermediary (gardener), real estate agent and neighbors have proved that they can arrange for people to do things on time. Of course we also had some less positive experiences, but all in all better than in Luxembourg, UK.  (I have to say for services (including sticking to (even verbal) agreements, Netherlands was best)
HUF 400 K sounds like a big investment, I am amazed/shocked that people just do not show up.
Our intermediary knows our requirements
1. Being on time and deliver (even if quality is not 100%  (most of the time it is though))

As a practical thing apart from Corona times, once or two times per year we invite those who help and are close to a meal in restaurant or at home (just to keep (and create) contacts. (I think it also helps but am not fully sure).

If you live close to Keszthely (lets say within 30 km radius) I can check with my guys to see if they could help out.  Just drop me a note. (I just do not want to be held responsible for any results at any time (I am happy but perhaps I just have low standards).

We know some re-migrating Hungarians and I know they have their issues too in getting things arranged, people just know and they rip-off them almost equally. (sad really).

I live in the burbs (almost) of Budapest so not practical to use people in Keszthely.  Too far away but thanks anyway. 

It's not really mishaps as that assumes it's like a mistake.  It's not that. It's just lack of available reliable resources and my attempts to perfect my house and garden.

I think at the moment there's a building boom in Budapest and the area. People are putting their cash into property because it's useless at the bank with low interest.  Around here,  there are many new houses and apartments being built.  It's a seller's market for building work.  They can afford to turn stuff down but they neglect the steady work in favour of the bigger flashier stuff rather than the steady earners.   

There's a website where you can find people to do stuff like electricians, bathroom installers, chimneys and roofing.  Mrs Fluffy has had some success there.  She knows a lot of people too but a lot of it is who you know.    Our tiler was great but others lack attention to detail.   Our tiler decided to go to Viet Nam and Asia travelling around for a couple of years so he's not around any more.

400K HUF is not a big investment.  It's a drop in the bucket where rebuilding is concerned.  I always think how long it will take me to do it and my pay rate vs theirs.  If I can do it faster, I will do it myself as I know I will pay attention to the details.

Sometimes I wonder if people are just plain lazy. I have had situations with my old classic hobby (North American) car where they've simply said they are incapable of repairing it or the car spares places cannot get the parts.  It's utter nonsense as I can get anything mail order.  I replaced the water pump about 2 weeks ago.  No-one had the hoses and basically, no, not here, cannot help you and no idea where you can find them. Fed up, i quickly found a place outside of HU in about 5 minutes online, ordered Friday and it arrived Wednesday.  Strange behaviour - like they don't want to make money in this country.  I got a complete kit too readily organised for the job with all the right parts.  I'd have to go to three different shops to find the parts here.

Hi, Thank you for your input.

Maybe you could help, We currently can not travel to Hungary and need to speak to a real estate agent. we want to rent an apartment either in keszthely, Heviz or Nagykaniza. our problem is that we need to sign a long term agreement on a apartment as soon as possible, before 31st December to guarantee us a resident permit. (Brexit)

We have left it late i Know, we only just decided that we want to live in Hungary. we have messaged a few agents and no reply, i do not even know if it possible to sign for an apartment when we are in the UK.

any help or info would be greatly appreciated

Thank you.

Arch4291 wrote:

Hi, Thank you for your input.

Maybe you could help, We currently can not travel to Hungary and need to speak to a real estate agent. we want to rent an apartment either in keszthely, Heviz or Nagykaniza. our problem is that we need to sign a long term agreement on a apartment as soon as possible, before 31st December to guarantee us a resident permit. (Brexit)

We have left it late i Know, we only just decided that we want to live in Hungary. we have messaged a few agents and no reply, i do not even know if it possible to sign for an apartment when we are in the UK.

any help or info would be greatly appreciated

Thank you.

You have indeed left it very late.  But then again so has Boris and Co.  Bl***dy Brexit.

You need a lawyer or someone to invite you.  You might be able to get here if you are taking part in legal business whatever the excuse like signing a contract.   Perhaps the lawyer you hire could send you an invitation and that would sort that out quickly.  Are either of you Hungarian?  Hungarian family members can come and a foreigner family member can accompany them.

You won't get any replies e-mailing people.  They are useless at responding to anyone.   

There are "fixers" here who will assist people in getting stuff done.  There's some place called helpers.hu but I don't know anything about them as to cost and quality.   

You need to get to immigration asap to get the registration and registration cards.  I think now you have to make online appointments and you'll be stuffed because you mustn't forget the COVID19 quarantines.  Incoming 10 days can be lost on that and there are huge restrictions on coming and going.    Almost a total waste of time as the virus is everywhere anyway and it's getting worse by the day. 

If you are to do anything sensible here, you need to get here mega sharpish.

You might suffer some problems buying property as a 3CN in 2021. It won't be straight forward as an EU citizen.

SimCityAT wrote:

You might suffer some problems buying property as a 3CN in 2021. It won't be straight forward as an EU citizen.

Yes, that's true.   A third country national will need permission.   

Although actually I believe even EU/EEA citizens needed permission before but it was automatically granted for non-agricultural land.   If I remember correctly agricultural and land in a national park are special permission categories and HU citizens are treated the same as EU/EEA nationals.   

My own house contract simply says that as an EU national,  I am exempt from the requirement to seek permission.  So I suppose no-one checked further than that although perhaps the local government will have looked it over.  Seemed a formality.  But there's a risk it could end up with additional time of weeks for processing.   

I'm guessing but if someone has the registration and address cards they wouldn't need to go down a permission route.

The estate agent will be better people to inform you of the ins and out. I know things in Austria will all change but different rules apply to different states. I am lucky because my misses is Austrian then again I don't plan on moving.

yes, when i bought my property (just a wine house) back in 2014 i needed permission from the local mayor, who so happened to be at the solicitors office when i signed. I also had to wait 3 months to give time for the locals to object.

we now want to buy an apartment in Zala county and worried that if we don't get the registration cards before December 31st it may not be possible. which is why we are wanting to rent a cheap place for a year so we have an address to register.

You are right that emails do not get a response, we will make some phone calls today and see if we can speak to some english speaking estate agents.

i also looked on the website you suggested, thank you. seems i would have to put a lot of trust in these fixers, could be a last resort.

I think our only hurdle is getting a long term contract for an address which is proving difficult not been able to travel.

Arch4291 wrote:

yes, when i bought my property (just a wine house) back in 2014 i needed permission from the local mayor, who so happened to be at the solicitors office when i signed. I also had to wait 3 months to give time for the locals to object.

we now want to buy an apartment in Zala county and worried that if we don't get the registration cards before December 31st it may not be possible. which is why we are wanting to rent a cheap place for a year so we have an address to register.

You are right that emails do not get a response, we will make some phone calls today and see if we can speak to some english speaking estate agents.

i also looked on the website you suggested, thank you. seems i would have to put a lot of trust in these fixers, could be a last resort.

I think our only hurdle is getting a long term contract for an address which is proving difficult not been able to travel.

Interesting...... https://www.hungarianhousesforsale.com/node/6

SimCityAT wrote:

.....

You are right that emails do not get a response, we will make some phone calls today and see if we can speak to some english speaking estate agents.

i also looked on the website you suggested, thank you. seems i would have to put a lot of trust in these fixers, could be a last resort.
....
Interesting...... https://www.hungarianhousesforsale.com/node/6

Obviously they need to work on updating that web site but like everyone, no-one really knows anything.

We wouldn't mind buying another house or a flat but we'd probably have to do it before the year end but we understand that this is not a big deal in Budapest itself.   If it was in the sticks, then permission more likely needed but very much dependent on how the local government feels like moving it along

Hopefully we will be able to buy next year, i think it will be possible, just maybe a longer process.

I realise we have gone slightly off topic, I just wanted to update our situation as it may help others. we now have the option of 4 apartment to rent and all say we can sign the contract via email. we are hoping to do this in the next few days. The next step is to apply for the registration card. Apparently we can do this online, they may ask us to go to the office for finger prints, would this class as an invite to travel? or would we need special permission?. Even the embassy doesn't know the answer to this. i will update when we know.

Thank you all for your help.

Arch4291 wrote:

Hopefully we will be able to buy next year, i think it will be possible, just maybe a longer process.

I realise we have gone slightly off topic, I just wanted to update our situation as it may help others. we now have the option of 4 apartment to rent and all say we can sign the contract via email. we are hoping to do this in the next few days. The next step is to apply for the registration card. Apparently we can do this online, they may ask us to go to the office for finger prints, would this class as an invite to travel? or would we need special permission?. Even the embassy doesn't know the answer to this. i will update when we know.

Thank you all for your help.

Who told you need fingerprints?   No-one has asked me for those.  Don't forget you aren't a third country national until 2021.  It's your right to to be registered in the same way as a local. 

That said, Mrs Fluffy has said that for HU passports they have to now give fingerprints. But that doesn't apply in these discussions.

You need generally to be there as they want to look at your actual documents - I had to take my passport, house purchase contract, marriage certificate (with official translation) and some photos.   The guy was very pleasant, organised and spoke good English.  He wasn't exactly Mr Speedy but was methodical.   I was at the main office in Budapest updating my entries.

Hi.
The embassy told us that we need biometrics because of the transition period and could take three months to process depending on how busy they are. I agree it should be the same process until the 31st December, i dont think anyone in the embassy really knows what is going on.

we can submit our documents online, it is good to know that we may need to have our documents translated, thank you. i will look into that. our Hungarian lawyer said that the embassy are obliged to help us in this situation but they are not much help at all. once we have all the documents in place we will submit online and call the embassy again. thay say that a last resort would be to apply to the police for permission to travel.

Arch4291 wrote:

Hi.
The embassy told us that we need biometrics because of the transition period and could take three months to process depending on how busy they are. I agree it should be the same process until the 31st December, i dont think anyone in the embassy really knows what is going on.

we can submit our documents online, it is good to know that we may need to have our documents translated, thank you. i will look into that. our Hungarian lawyer said that the embassy are obliged to help us in this situation but they are not much help at all. once we have all the documents in place we will submit online and call the embassy again. thay say that a last resort would be to apply to the police for permission to travel.

I think you may have been misinformed.  I don't ever recall giving fingerprints for registration. 

For EEA/EU nationals, there's no biometric card issued currently.   It's a really simple laminated card.  There's no expiry date.   No chip.  No photo.  Was issued on the spot.

Mrs Fluffy just confirmed that she needs to give fingerprints for passports now.  So it's creeping enrolment.   Her ID card lasts 10 years and she's saying that probably it's fingerprints on next renewal.

On the other hand, one of our kids (under 18) was asked if they could take fingerprints and refused to let them.  Didn't stop the process or affect validity.

Which embassy do you mean?  British Embassy here or HU Embassy?  HU Embassy probably didn't get you were EU citizens (I assume you are) so gave you the wrong info.

Here's what the card looks like: