Do you think vietnam is becoming less corrupt?

Wow! Where do I start.
It never ceases to amaze me at how many corrupt officials there are here.
The govt is doing something about it, but it will take time as its ingrained in the minds of many.
When I see cops driving a new Audi or Beemer, I just wonder how they can get away with it.

Eventually you will see less of it on a larger scale as Vietnam transitions to more of a world economy.  It's one of the things we discussed at the Am Cham meeting here which is the American Chamber of Commerce group.  Companies are somewhat hesitant to invest here, especially US publicly traded companies.  Can you imagine the backlash on Wall St when it becomes known that a large multi-national company is found out being involved in bribery?  Even though it's common it makes for really bad press.  Now, will it slow down shaking down drivers or small shop owners?  Maybe not.

I have seen more and more articles of high ranking officials being arrested for large scale schemes in Tuoi Tre News lately.

SteinNebraska wrote:

Eventually you will see less of it on a larger scale as Vietnam transitions to more of a world economy.  It's one of the things we discussed at the Am Cham meeting here which is the American Chamber of Commerce group.  Companies are somewhat hesitant to invest here, especially US publicly traded companies.  Can you imagine the backlash on Wall St when it becomes known that a large multi-national company is found out being involved in bribery?  Even though it's common it makes for really bad press.  Now, will it slow down shaking down drivers or small shop owners?  Maybe not.

I have seen more and more articles of high ranking officials being arrested for large scale schemes in Tuoi Tre News lately.

All large companies have to pay somehow.
Intel bought laptops as part of its bribe process, Im sure lots more was paid without anyone knowing.

https://www.industryweek.com/the-econom … m-thailand

Technically payment of bribes by US corporations, or for that matter individual citizens, is against US law but you seldom hear of its enforcement.  I know that at one company where I once worked, we always paid an import agent hefty fees when sending research materials to Argentina for winter plantings.  That way the Argentine agents paid the customs bribes instead of us.  I am sure that US corporations find similar ways to get around the US law while doing business as is customary in Vietnam.

I think it all starts from the top down. If the generals are corrupt, it trickles down. If the police captains are corrupt, it also trickles down. Maybe one way to deter this is paying higher salaries to deter getting fired if you are caught doing things that are corrupt. There's corruption everywhere but not as out in the open in developed countries.

qnbui wrote:

Maybe one way to deter this is paying higher salaries to deter getting fired if you are caught doing things that are corrupt.

Already done.  Employees of Tax Department and Duty & Customs, two government agencies with the most opportunities for corruption, have always received financial incentive to deter them from corruption.  The incentive adds 50% - 75% to the salary depending on the employee's position.

Ciambella wrote:

qnbui wrote:

Maybe one way to deter this is paying higher salaries to deter getting fired if you are caught doing things that are corrupt.

Already done.  Employees of Tax Department and Duty & Customs, two government agencies with the most opportunities for corruption, have always received financial incentive to deter them from corruption.  The incentive adds 50% - 75% to the salary depending on the employee's position.

This guy obviously didnt think it was enough. Corruption in customs is still a big problem, ask any company trying to get a container off the docks.

Customs officer

colinoscapee wrote:

Ciambella wrote:

qnbui wrote:

Maybe one way to deter this is paying higher salaries to deter getting fired if you are caught doing things that are corrupt.

Already done.  Employees of Tax Department and Duty & Customs, two government agencies with the most opportunities for corruption, have always received financial incentive to deter them from corruption.  The incentive adds 50% - 75% to the salary depending on the employee's position.

This guy obviously didnt think it was enough. Corruption in customs is still a big problem, ask any company trying to get a container off the docks.

Customs officer

Paying higher salaries is no deterrent for corruption it just wets the apatite. In my life time I have worked in some of the most corrupt countries & areas of the world. It always starts at the top & trickles down & the more power you have like cops & government officials even at street level.
You know something, one of the least corrupt countries at street level I worked & one of the poorest..........India. Never got stopped once in my year there & asked for coffee money. You know another fact certainly in my experience, the ordinary people I meet at the markets & round the shops where I live here D12 are some of the least "corrupt" I have ever met & most would never ever dream of screwing me on prices etc in fact the opposite . Now hit D1 & D2 its a whole different ball game!
As some people know already, the one of the few times I have been screwed here was by an expat I befriended on this forum

goodolboy wrote:

colinoscapee wrote:

Ciambella wrote:

Already done.  Employees of Tax Department and Duty & Customs, two government agencies with the most opportunities for corruption, have always received financial incentive to deter them from corruption.  The incentive adds 50% - 75% to the salary depending on the employee's position.

This guy obviously didnt think it was enough. Corruption in customs is still a big problem, ask any company trying to get a container off the docks.

Customs officer

Paying higher salaries is no deterrent for corruption it just wets the apatite. In my life time I have worked in some of the most corrupt countries & areas of the world. It always starts at the top & trickles down & the more power you have like cops & government officials even at street level.
You know something, one of the least corrupt countries at street level I worked & one of the poorest..........India. Never got stopped once in my year there & asked for coffee money. You know another fact certainly in my experience, the ordinary people I meet at the markets & round the shops where I live here D12 are some of the least "corrupt" I have ever met & most would never ever dream of screwing me on prices etc in fact the opposite . Now hit D1 & D2 its a whole different ball game!
As some people know already, the one of the few times I have been screwed here was by an expat I befriended on this forum

I would never screw you, youre too old. 

colinoscapee wrote:

This guy obviously didnt think it was enough. Corruption in customs is still a big problem, ask any company trying to get a container off the docks.

Tax and customs employees are warned when they accept the positions and the extra salary that the punishment would be swift and severe.

goodolboy wrote:

As some people know already, the one of the few times I have been screwed here was by an expat I befriended on this forum

My similar experience happened 3 times (with 3 different expats), although being a properly raised woman, I must use a more mundane verb.  Who would've thought that there are so many low-life American expats on this forum?

Ciambella wrote:

Employees of Tax Department and Duty & Customs, two government agencies with the most opportunities for corruption, have always received financial incentive to deter them from corruption.  The incentive adds 50% - 75% to the salary depending on the employee's position.

And yet we just paid coffe money of 4% of a 2 billion VAT refund two months ago to the tax official to get back our own money that we are entitled to by law.  So the official got 80,000,000 for doing abolutely nothing beyond doing his job.  And we are just one small company.  Imagine how many times he does this in a week.   Good gig if you can get it.  If we don't pay it the refund the application for refund can sit around for six months until they "get around to it" and then there will be problems with this invoice or that red invoice and they end up finding much more than 4% that aren't eligible for refund.  Even then our application was absolutely perfect and we were entitled to get 100% of the refund but he told us that we have to at least find one invoice that he has to flag because he "has to find something wrong or his superiors would find fault with him not doing his job".  He said nobody can get back everything.

SteinNebraska wrote:

Ciambella wrote:

Employees of Tax Department and Duty & Customs, two government agencies with the most opportunities for corruption, have always received financial incentive to deter them from corruption.  The incentive adds 50% - 75% to the salary depending on the employee's position.

And yet we just paid coffe money of 4% of a 2 billion VAT refund two months ago to the tax official to get back our own money that we are entitled to by law.  So the official got 80,000,000 for doing abolutely nothing beyond doing his job.  And we are just one small company.  Imagine how many times he does this in a week.   Good gig if you can get it.  If we don't pay it the refund the application for refund can sit around for six months until they "get around to it" and then there will be problems with this invoice or that red invoice and they end up finding much more than 4% that aren't eligible for refund.  Even then our application was absolutely perfect and we were entitled to get 100% of the refund but he told us that we have to at least find one invoice that he has to flag because he "has to find something wrong or his superiors would find fault with him not doing his job".  He said nobody can get back everything.

Agree, Stein.

The company my wife works for gets audited about 3 times a year by the tax guy, every time he gets a payment so he doesnt disrupt business. He finds nothing every time, but money must be paid so that problems dont appear from thin air. The Sheraton hotel in Saigon gets audited 14 times a year, yet the Caravelle nearby never has the same problem due to its connections.

Its everywhere you look in daily life, so many of the laws that should be punishable are just ignored in exchange for a small donation...

Money talks, if you have enough you can do anything here

colinoscapee wrote:

goodolboy wrote:

colinoscapee wrote:

This guy obviously didnt think it was enough. Corruption in customs is still a big problem, ask any company trying to get a container off the docks.

Customs officer

Paying higher salaries is no deterrent for corruption it just wets the apatite. In my life time I have worked in some of the most corrupt countries & areas of the world. It always starts at the top & trickles down & the more power you have like cops & government officials even at street level.
You know something, one of the least corrupt countries at street level I worked & one of the poorest..........India. Never got stopped once in my year there & asked for coffee money. You know another fact certainly in my experience, the ordinary people I meet at the markets & round the shops where I live here D12 are some of the least "corrupt" I have ever met & most would never ever dream of screwing me on prices etc in fact the opposite . Now hit D1 & D2 its a whole different ball game!
As some people know already, the one of the few times I have been screwed here was by an expat I befriended on this forum

I would never screw you, youre too old. 

old but never been to prison or too drunk to know whats going on in that department so pretty much fresh meat even at 70

i guess corruption is so hard to get rid off because it can be so useful to those that need things done. i know alot o the australian banks have left vietnam over this.
My wife wants to 'pay' the kids teacher so they will provide 'good' teaching and care to the kids, at the beginning i was against it but because 'everyone' was doing it, i caved in . Same goes with doctors at the public hospitals.
Though i tried to pay a 'tip' to my dentist who refused  and just took the standard rate.

bizdeals wrote:

i guess corruption is so hard to get rid off because it can be so useful to those that need things done. i know alot o the australian banks have left vietnam over this.
My wife wants to 'pay' the kids teacher so they will provide 'good' teaching and care to the kids, at the beginning i was against it but because 'everyone' was doing it, i caved in . Same goes with doctors at the public hospitals................WOW

Though i tried to pay a 'tip' to my dentist who refused  and just took the standard rate.

My company before I retired (American Head Office ) moved a rig out too, just could not handle it, just too much hassle!
Mind you going back a bit 1982 we had a rig working off Southern Italy (Regio Calabria) & it was no different there except if you did not play ball there,  chances were the Rig Manager would end up "deep six" with a pair of concrete wellies on.

colinoscapee wrote:

Ciambella wrote:

qnbui wrote:

Maybe one way to deter this is paying higher salaries to deter getting fired if you are caught doing things that are corrupt.

Already done.  Employees of Tax Department and Duty & Customs, two government agencies with the most opportunities for corruption, have always received financial incentive to deter them from corruption.  The incentive adds 50% - 75% to the salary depending on the employee's position.

This guy obviously didnt think it was enough. Corruption in customs is still a big problem, ask any company trying to get a container off the docks.

Customs officer

Yes, had a U.S. multinational trying to import consumer goods and customs refused entry without a huge payment (you can't hide a brand name that is known worldwide by every person on the planet).  The goods never left customs and were shipped out of VN and just imagine the millions in USD, of VAT that was lost, all because some greedy custom agents.  Let alone the salaries of workers who would have been paid well if the goods would have been admitted and sold.  The ripple effects are more than 1 can imagine.

Ciambella wrote:

colinoscapee wrote:

This guy obviously didnt think it was enough. Corruption in customs is still a big problem, ask any company trying to get a container off the docks.

Tax and customs employees are warned when they accept the positions and the extra salary that the punishment would be swift and severe.

Like the customs agents, I also had clients with tax audits and the same story, the tax agent made 3 offers to make everything fine.  Each price level had a pre determined outcome and you can guess, the more you paid, the lesser was the tax bill.  Since we used a well known firm, no bribe and it was settled for peanuts.

I have been waiting for the vo van kiet road extension to finish since oct 2018 ( i own land nearby) , but apparently the director of the contractor has been jailed for 12 years and the project has come to halt, it was started 5 years before that. It is less than 5km and apparently all the land clearances has been done and the funding was in place...
Also, in bac lieu a bridge that was funded was delayed for a number of years because the contractors kept disappearing with the deposit apparently 3 times before it got finally built....

It doesn't matter how much you pay them, they will always want more. Lets not forget, customs officials pay someone higher up for the good positions.

Customs caught

It is worth noting that in the example that Colin cited, the officials were only suspended 15 days  "pending an investigation."  It would be interesting to see what happens 15 days from now.