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Tagalog ... and 'he' and 'she'

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PalawOne
Here's an interesting article regarding Tagalog .. from here:  evs-translations.com/blog/tagalog/

Am interested because I'm trying to assist my wife's otherwise very good english language skills regarding "he" and "she" when in conversation.  It's now the only thing she can sometimes be confused over in conversation.

Quote: "Tagalog occupies an odd place in the Philippines: although its standardised version, Filipino, is one of the two national languages (along with English), Tagalog is still the first language for about 25% of the population.

While it is considered as a member of the Malayo-Polynesian subgroup of Austronesian languages, it is practically more of a localised East meets West language.

Originating in central and southern Luzon – likely in riverside settlements, as Tagalog literally means ‘river dweller’ – the area (and naturally, the language), through trade, geographic closeness, and colonialism, has been heavily influenced by Malay, Chinese, English, and Spanish.

First recorded via the Laguna Copperplate Inscription around 900 AD, Tagalog was initially written in Baybayin, which comes from the Brahmic family of scripts in India.

The first known work fully written in Tagalog, discussing Christian doctrine, comes from 1593, during the Spanish colonial period. Written in Spanish, Baybayin Tagalog, and a Latinized version of Tagalog, this book and the works that followed it had the dual effect of preserving Baybayin and introducing the Latin script to Tagalog, which would overtake Baybayin in written Tagalog during the 18th century.

A Franciscan, named Pedro de San Buenaventura, wrote the first Tagalog dictionary in 1613.

In addition to all of the words that Tagalog has imported, there have also been some exports, such as the word boondocks. The word that we understand to mean ‘a remote, out of the way place’ comes from the Tagalog bundok, meaning ‘mountain,’ representing the fact that the mountainous areas of the Philippines are remote and isolated.

Tagalog begins and ends with verbs, which can include prefixes, suffixes, infixes, and circumfixes to indicate focus, tense, aspect, and mood.

Additionally, if English is considered to be mostly subject-verb in structure, Tagalog can be considered: verb-everything else.

Increasing the degree of difficulty for learning, though the subject usually precedes the object, adjectives and possessives can be both before or after their related noun.

And pronouns are hard. While they do exist in the typical, familiar format, it is the application that can cause confusion. In Tagalog, for singular 3rd person, there is no distinction between he and she, meaning that the gender becomes relative to the noun it modifies.

Personal pronouns can only refer to humans and there are three demonstrative pronouns, where one is equivalent to the English this, and the other two distinguish between a 'near' and 'not so near' that.

Furthermore, using numbers and dates in Tagalog can be difficult because native speakers use not only Tagalog, but also English and Spanish 'ones' and in many different formats.

And the influence of English goes as far that many Filipinos nowadays communicate in a mixture of Tagalog and English, known as Taglish. Naturally, Taglish is most common among the educated city class.

While the influence of the Spanish language, during the Spanish occupation of the Philippines, resulted in the creation of a Spanish-based Philippine Creole language, known as Chabacano or Chavacano.

While learning Tagalog will be an interesting experience, translating from and into Tagalog is a real challenge.

--
Cherryann01

@PalawOne I have noticed this also and also that Filipinos or some of them also refer to a sister as a brother, something that I could never get my head around so thank you for the info.

coach53
Quote: "Tagalog occupies an odd place in the Philippines: although its standardised version, Filipino, is one of the two national languages (along with English), Tagalog is still the first language for about 25% of the population.
That low percentage make it extra ridicilous no other language has official status, not even Bisaya, which is similar big!!!
(In Sweden ALL languages of origin minorities too are counted as official...)

In addition to all of the words that Tagalog has imported, there have also been some exports, such as the word boondocks. The word that we understand to mean ‘a remote, out of the way place’ comes from the Tagalog bundok, meaning ‘mountain,’ representing the fact that the mountainous areas of the Philippines are remote and isolated.
- @PalawOne
Oh I thought they spelled it wrong as rather often*  but it was the opposite   1f923.svg

*E g spelling as it sound - not the wrong English use of vowels  :)  - and mixing up long and short vocal sound as "leave" and "live".
An American husband asked his Filipina wife, living in Phils, but the American thought of they would move to USA. She found it far when living 10 houses from her parents  :)
-What do you think about leaving here?
-Good.
-Oh you do?!
-Yes, I like to live here.
:)
FilAmericanMom
Here's an interesting article regarding Tagalog .. from here:  evs-translations.com/blog/tagalog/

Am interested because I'm trying to assist my wife's otherwise very good english language skills regarding "he" and "she" when in conversation.  It's now the only thing she can sometimes be confused over in conversation.


- @PalawOne

I do know the proper use of the pronouns "he" and "she." (Most likely, your wife knows too.) But, like your wife, I sometimes make the mistake interchanging "he" and "she" while conversing with my husband and kids here in the Philippines. But back in the states, I never made that mistake. And wherever I am, I don't make that mistake in writing.

There is only one Filipino word for both "he" and "she": "siya"; also for "him" and "her": "niya"; and "his" and "hers": "kanya."  Here in the Philippines, I speak in English only around 10% of the time, mostly it's with my husband and children. And that 10% is not one chunk of time where I will be exclusively speaking in English. I could be interrupted by a phone call or by someone who needs to talk to me where I will need to speak in Filipino. Then, when I go back to talking in English with my family, that's when I might interchange "he" and "she." I might also slip up by pronouncing words with "i", like "slip" as like words with long e's, like "sleep."

This didn't happen in the states because I spoke in English around 98% of the time. And when I spoke in Filipino in America, it's mostly with relatives during family gatherings or short phone calls. I also started mispronouncing certain Filipino words.

I don't think your wife is confused with "he" and "she". It's just hard not to make a mistake when shifting from one language to another. We're not perfect.  Sometimes, it can get annoying when my husband points out the interchange of "he" and "she", like I don't know the difference. In my mind, I'm saying, "Shut up! You're not even bilingual."







Moon Dog

@FilAmericanMom Excellent explanation. My wife lived in the US for 14 years and still interchanges he and she. I never said anything to her about it unless it was important to verify the gender. I'll be even more tolerant after reading what you wrote.

PalawOne
Well expressed FilAmericanMom!

One well understands your feelings.

And the reason I bought up the issue is to support my wife. She has an important job in hospital medical care. Her job 100% involves people. It revolves around many people and accurate professionally team-worked care.

It is essential there be zero confusion regarding each patient and their unique requirements for individualized professional health care.

Now, I have never heard her communicating on the job. But at home she can sometimes still have 'he' and 'she' mixed up. I'm a little concerned that she also may do it at work, maybe with quite serious patient treatment confusion?  I don't want to ask her.

So I want to find a way of maybe quietly helping her professionally.

Is there any way, or method, or whatever, that can assist all tagalog-speaking people with any issues re working in communication situations where verbal client/patient accuracy and speedy teamwork precision matters?

Am hoping someone has some ideas to maybe assist my dearly beloved one?

A well recognized matter, maybe someone knows some clever ideas to help?
Michaelm54

@coach53 but liv would be pronounced leave. I used to work with some French computer guys, we very much got a kick out of making them say ‘sheet’ because it comes out ‘shit’. They couldn’t make that long e sound. My biggest problem is making the ng sound. Yes, I make people laugh too.

danfinn

@FilAmericanMom  But to a non-bilingual person, which most Americans are, when he and she are reversed, at a minimum it leads to confusion. It is not always just a casual error that people can understand, it is so fundamental that the pronouns are gender specific and understood as auch that your casual mixup may be interpreted as your not knowing the sex of the person or having an incorrect knowledge of the meaning of he and she; don't be suprised if people try to be helpful and correct you, they are not trying to be mean. On the other hand, in bisayan they have the same gender neutral pronouns as the tagalog speakers. I find it awkward not distinguishing gender but at least I cannot make a mistake.

coach53

@coach53 but liv would be pronounced leave. I used to work with some French computer guys, we very much got a kick out of making them say ‘sheet’ because it comes out ‘shit’. They couldn’t make that long e sound. My biggest problem is making the ng sound. Yes, I make people laugh too.

- @Michaelm54
:)
The "i" and the "ea" in live and leave is basicly SAME sound but different long, so easy to mix up specialy from leave to live because NO WAY Filipinos, Swedes, Germans, Spanish... would say leave as its suppoused to be pronounced if not knowing it, by English use vowels wrong  :)
coach53
Is there any way, or method, or whatever, that can assist all tagalog-speaking people with any issues re working in communication situations where verbal client/patient accuracy and speedy teamwork precision matters?

Am hoping someone has some ideas to maybe assist my dearly beloved one?

A well recognized matter, maybe someone knows some clever ideas to help?
- @PalawOne
Not easy by they need to rethink, but Filipinos in general are very good at speaking multiplöe languages allready at young age 1f44d.svg  so they have the capacity.

I would say:
I suppouse you know the difference between male and female  :)
When its male then its he, him, his, and when its female then its she, her, hers.

Need reminding and repeeting.  Instead of telling repeetingly, which can feel as nagging, can put a sign telling that at the bathroom mirror  :)  to see it repeetingly. (It can assist changing other thinking, so I suppose can function at this too.)
coach53

@FilAmericanMom  But to a non-bilingual person, which most Americans are, when he and she are reversed, at a minimum it leads to confusion.

- @danfinn
Yes.
Why are most Americans that when even part of USA was SPANISH speaking some generations ago??!  and partly is kind of STILL :)

Before I knew this mixing up of he and she I missunderstood things and got very confused when I asumed "he" or "she" refered to the last of THAT sex, but they refered to the LAST person UNDEPENDING of sex.  But since I got to know this many years ago I dont asume anymore  :) but I ask them direct when its unclear who they ment.   
PalawOne
Is there any way, or method, or whatever, that can assist all tagalog-speaking people working in communication situations where verbal client/patient accuracy matters?
- @PalawOne
Not easy .. they need to rethink, but Filipinos in general are very good at speaking multiple languages already at young age 1f44d.svg  so they have the capacity.

I would say: "When its male then its he, him, his, and when its female then its she, her, hers."  Need reminding and repeating .. put a sign at the bathroom mirror smile.pngto see it repeatingly.
`
Yes, that's a good idea Coach .. thanks. The thought occurs that it's difficult for her, and all folk who speak tagalog because unlike english, tagalog is not a subject-verb language but primarily a verb based language (And, as was explained in the original quote, at the start of this thread).

So for an english speaker, their thoughts begin with the object (him/her/them) and then progress to what happens to them, or the verb. But for a tagalog speaker, their thinking begins with a verb or action, and then can progress into any direction. So really, the who (him or her) isn't an important matter.

So, its almost like we are coming at thinking (thus speaking) from completely different directions.  It's almost like the tagalog speaker assumes the object (the person) is universal, the tribe. And, the who in any thought is taken for granted as all of us, as the 'plural everyone'. Truly, a lovely belief.

So where does that leave the tagalog speaker in an english speaking environment?  It leaves them needing to define the individual person being spoken about. Something in a family or tribal group way of thinking isn't of prime importance. So given my possibly different cultural emphasis theory I'm not sure how and where we may best proceed from here regarding assisting communications?





manwonder
A Fact :
43% of the global population is bilingual (and 13% is trilingual), which further contributes to the rate at which languages are growing.
coach53
A Fact :
43% of the global population is bilingual (and 13% is trilingual), which further contributes to the rate at which languages are growing.
- @manwonder
Interesting 1f44d.svg
I suppouse its mainly some of the most poor countries - and USA!!! :) - who hold the bilingual percent that low.
Big part of Filipinos are trillingual (or more) although some are to shy (lose face) to show it.
I have no idea what its called when speak 4  :)     but most Swedes in my age have learned at least 4 languages by back in high school it was mandatory to chose a 4th language, but I dont know if its same still.
FilAmericanMom
Well expressed FilAmericanMom!

One well understands your feelings.

And the reason I bought up the issue is to support my wife. She has an important job in hospital medical care. Her job 100% involves people. It revolves around many people and accurate professionally team-worked care.

It is essential there be zero confusion regarding each patient and their unique requirements for individualized professional health care.

Now, I have never heard her communicating on the job. But at home she can sometimes still have 'he' and 'she' mixed up. I'm a little concerned that she also may do it at work, maybe with quite serious patient treatment confusion?  I don't want to ask her.

So I want to find a way of maybe quietly helping her professionally.

Is there any way, or method, or whatever, that can assist all tagalog-speaking people with any issues re working in communication situations where verbal client/patient accuracy and speedy teamwork precision matters?

Am hoping someone has some ideas to maybe assist my dearly beloved one?

A well recognized matter, maybe someone knows some clever ideas to help?
- @PalawOne

If your wife were my sister, and I was concerned about this possible minutiae of her professional life because she interchanges "he" and "she" at home, I would have asked her 1) if she interchanges "he" and "she" at work, 2) if she has co-workers who make that mistake, and 3) how her co-workers react if someone makes that mistake, instead of assuming that she might be making that mistake at work and putting a grammar lesson on a mirror or on the wall at home. I would not put a grammar lesson on a mirror because I know she knows the difference. She had perfect scores in TOEFL (test of English as a foreign language) and has perfect grammar when writing.

As I mentioned in my previous post, I make that mistake when I'm shifting from talking in Tagalog to English. (It doesn't happen when I'm writing in English.) It might happen also when the conversation involves a strong feeling or emotion, like being animated or being upset. For example, I was talking to my daughter about the trouble our newly adopted cat had done. "Look at what your cat has done! He chewed on my papers! Now I have to reprint them. You should have a better control of her." "Mom, calm down. Oreo's a girl. She's not 'he.'" (BTW, I know that one should use "it" for animals, but my family prefers to use personal pronouns for our pets.)

I believe your wife does not have the issue of interchanging "he" and "she" at work because she has cues like the name of the patient and his / her details on his / her file like "Don Johnson; Male Caucasian; 72; Father to 2" And if her co-workers use English almost exclusively, it will be even more unlikely she would make that mistake.

But if you don't want to ask her if she makes that mistake at work, then, at home, you can help her by subtly using an antecedent when talking with her. For example, "Your nephew, he was a big help today. He cleaned the back yard. Your niece, she was thoughtful. She watered the plants. But Ella, ugh, she just sat there. She just watched them."


Filipino words often have more syllables than their English counterpart. So, sometimes when we're shifting from Tagalog to English, we might talk fast at the start, sometimes too fast for our thoughts to catch up. Here's an example - Manny Pacquiao's post-fight (with Barrera) interview (fast forward to 7:37):


After the first few question, Manny's tempo in speaking like that of his interpreter. He was also animated because he just won. He said,  "I didn't expect this (spoken very fast) aaa . . . this aaaa . . . aa. . .  knockout." But for the last few questions without the interpreter and as he calmed down, his pace got slower and there's less space between his words.

Compare that pace in talking to his pace  after the Morales fight (0:48) where there's no interpreter:


The pace is slower. He's calmer. He was able to gather his thoughts. Less of the aaaa's in mid-sentence.

I know Manny had a lot of grammatical errors. But there was one time in the first interview where he corrected himself, and it showed a detail of how Filipino is spoken. There are two ways to say "his style" in Filipino: either "kanyang style" or "style niya." He probably prefers using the latter when talking in Filipino, and when he translated that into English, he said "style him," rather than saying "that style of his." But he corrected himself afterwards and said "his style".

There was no instance where Manny interchanged "he" and "she."But a Filipino might make that mistake when he / she doesn't slow down his / her pace when shifting from Tagalog to English.

Just my two cents.

















FilAmericanMom
So for an english speaker, their thoughts begin with the object (him/her/them) and then progress to what happens to them, or the verb. But for a tagalog speaker, their thinking begins with a verb or action, and then can progress into any direction. So really, the who (him or her) isn't an important matter.

So, its almost like we are coming at thinking (thus speaking) from completely different directions.  It's almost like the tagalog speaker assumes the object (the person) is universal, the tribe. And, the who in any thought is taken for granted as all of us, as the 'plural everyone'. Truly, a lovely belief.

- @PalawOne

It's not that difficult to follow the SVO pattern.

There are two syntaxes in Filipino: "pangkaraniwan" or regular and "di-pangkaraniwan" or non-regular. The first syntax is more commonly used and follows the verb / qualifier + everything else pattern.  The second one is similar to SVO. But just because SVO is not used often doesn't mean it's harder for us. Nope. It's easy-peasy.

What is a lot more difficult and confusing is using and understanding phrasal verbs. (I had to memorize hundreds of these in preparation for GMAT.) For example, most Filipinos understand that "put" is synonymous with "place," like "Put the bunny back in the box" has the same meaning as "Place the bunny back in the box." But if you place an adverb after "put", the phrase now has a different meaning. Just to name a few of phrasal verbs with "put":

Put off - delay
Put out - extinguish
Put up - construct
Put up with - tolerate
Put on - wear

And each phrasal may have multiple definitions. So, for someone who doesn't use English in conversation often, this can be very confusing, especially when there are no context clues. For example, for the action of putting on a seat belt, we say "buckle up." But why "up" and not "down" when the action of putting on a seat belt is downward? "Buckle down" has a very different meaning. Also, if you tell a non-native speaker, "Put it out" without a context clue, he/she might throw something out the window instead of extinguishing a fire.

There are hundreds of these phrases. Even if you memorize all of them, you can quickly forget their meaning if you don't use them often. So, if you want to be better understood, avoid using phrasal verbs without context clues. Like instead of saying, "I've decided to put off the meeting because the guy is a major put-off" say instead "I've decided to postpone the meeting because the guy I'm meeting is so unpleasant."

"Off" is the opposite of "on." "Turn off" is the opposite of "turn on." But "put off" is not the opposite of "put on."' You don't say, "Put off you clothes." You say, "Take off your clothes."  And that might sound odd to people who are more familiar with "take off" as the action of a plane getting airborne. Better to say, "Remove your clothes."
Cherryann01
I was married to a Ukranian women for nearly 17 years and I remember her coming over to England to live with me speaking very basic English.

Over the years she took courses, improved her English and after about 12 years working in various jobs, she decided she wanted to become a teacher. She put the hard work in, studied and passed and then found a position teaching in Primary School. She has never looked back and over the years she took on more and more responsibilities, like Head of IT.

The one thing I remember her saying to me was that she had no problems writing, speaking, reading or understanding the language but she always thought in her native language and therefore had to kind of translate her thoughts before she spoke or wrote. Maybe this is what is happening here.
PalawOne
It's not that difficult to follow the SVO pattern. There are two syntaxes in Filipino: "pangkaraniwan" or regular and "di-pangkaraniwan" or non-regular. The first syntax is more commonly used and follows the verb / qualifier + everything else pattern.  The second one is similar to SVO. But just because SVO is not used often doesn't mean it's harder for us. Nope. It's easy-peasy.  - @FilAmericanMom
Ah, very good, Thank you FilAmericanMom. I didn't know that regarding tagalog. Very interesting. Apparently my learning of tagalog still has a very long way to go indeed. 1f600.svg
What is a lot more difficult and confusing is using and understanding phrasal verbs. (I had to memorize hundreds of these in preparation for GMAT.)
Yes, as you well point out, phrasal verbs certainly are a tricky idiomatic aspect of speaking english perfectly

The same as you regarding GMAT, my wife, whom before we met was a teacher at Philippine government schools for twelve years, as also were her four sisters, (and they still do), now has phrasal verbs down perfectly. I'm sure it's helped that we've lived here in Australia for another twelve years (for six months each year) so that now her english is perfect. Except, as I said before, sometimes still not quite perfect, and only regarding her "he and she."

It's hard to know how to help her, although your advice regarding helping her would certainly seem worthwhile.

Thanks again, FilAmericanMom

"Take off your clothes."  Better to say, "Remove your clothes." - @FilAmericanMom
Hmm, thanks, I'll remember to do that, this evening, as soon as she gets home from work.1f600.svg
PalawOne
Cherryann writes,

I was married to a Ukranian women for nearly 17 years and I remember her coming over to England to live with me speaking very basic English .. one thing I remember her saying to me was that she had no problems writing, speaking, reading or understanding the language but she always thought in her native language and therefore had to kind of translate her thoughts before she spoke or wrote. Maybe this is what is happening here. - @Cherryann01

Yes that's interesting, and as you say, it may be what my wife does also. Certainly be worth exploring further

Thanks, Cherryann

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