Hydrogen Economy

@alan279

Does anyone know of any hydrogen projects in Brazil?

@alan279
Does anyone know of any hydrogen projects in Brazil? - @alan279

Google is well aware.

@alan279 - from a google search, I found the following:

https://fuelcellsworks.com/2024/10/10/g … e-in-ceara

I am sure that you will be able to find more info if you dig deeper.  However, it seems that there appears to be a common thread - any hydrogen industry development will need to rely on government incentives.

The Ceara project is only a plan. I still haven't found any working hydrogen projects in Brazil.

My assertion is that a hydrogen economy for transport cannot compete with a pure electrical play, due to the thermodynamic laws of physics.

Electric only production, storage and distribution of energy is three times more efficient than hydrogen.

So why subsidize hydrogen?

So why subsidize hydrogen? - @alan279

Hydrogen has multiple applications beyond just electrical energy conversion.  Remember it took a while and a lot of subsidies to have gas powered vehicles.  Gas / petrol comes from petroleum crude oil.  Production and distribution did take time to develop and deploy.

Arguably hydrogen based energy generation would be more ecologically friendly than big oil - hence the reason why governments should provide subsidies.

Unfortunately big oil and EV manufacturers carry bigger sticks than environmentalists.

Hydrogen buses and trains have been tried many times and failed. But Santa Cruz and San Mateo in California are buying hydrogen buses now. And some cities in Canadá. A hydrogen train is now running in Riverside County, California.

Where do you get the hydrogen? Green hydrogen is produced by separating hydrogen from oxygen in water. Usually by electrolyzers powered by solar panels. The hydrogen has to be compressed to store it. Then the hydrogen has to be transported to point of use. Then dispensed into buses and trains.

Lots of moving parts are involved, compressors, high pressure tanks, trucks, and hydrogen stations with a high failure rate (in California).

And two thirds of the energy is lost along the way by using hydrogen, rather than moving the energy via electricity from solar panels to wheels.

So, why subsidize this technology that has failed so many times in Europe?

It's just physics. Hydrogen is 3X less efficient than electricity.

Yet the US is spending $8 billion on hydrogen hubs. Why?

And what is Brazil's hydrogen strategy?

Yet the US is spending $8 billion on hydrogen hubs. Why?
- @alan279

If you are referring to something like that  https://www.energy.gov/oced/regional-cl … en-hubs-0, this expenditure was in the infrastructure bill.  This is for pure research, I believe.

@Pablo888

The Hydrogen Hub money is for demonstration projects, not pure research. The science is known. Hydrogen is not economically feasible for transport.

@Alan279: I have also read somewhere that it takes a lot more energy to produce the Hydrogen than what you get stored in the fuel cell so, strictly from an energy budget point of view, it doesn't make sense.

I've heard some arguments though, that made me change my mind and think it is not such a waste of time/money.

If you use the electricity directly, it doesn't go from the solar panels (or the transmission lines) directly to wheels. There are also many steps involved and you need batteries. Mining Lithium, purifying it and producing the batteries is not environmentally friendly and also spend a lot of energy.

So, in the end, it is probably a good idea to have many, or at least more than one, way of powering transportation systems in general.

Green energy (from solar, wind,water) is delivered to battery vehicle wheels on the road via high voltage power lines, vehicle battery and vehicle electric motor with roughly 60% efficiency (source to wheel).

Green energy can be used to produce hydrogen, which is compressed, stored and delivered to fuel cell vehicles at roughly 20% efficiency (source to wheel).

Battery electric vehicles are roughly three times as efficient as fuel cell vehicles.

This is a fuel efficiency comparison, not a full life cycle cost comparison. Batteries, electrolyzers and fuel cells are costly to manufacture and use various minerals. I'll see if someone has worked up the total costs from mine to finished vehicle.

I think that hydrogen can be a great and efficient energy source.  The sun runs on hydrogen.

But we have not yet developed a practical fusion engine.  Or the matter / anti-matter reactor (for trekkies).

I guess that a technical analogy is that Nikola Tesla invented a more efficient  version of the car but this was not accepted - or more likely sabotaged - by the public (or special interests).

In other words, are you making the case that hydrogen is NOT ready for prime time?  You may be right. 

However, we still need dreamers out there that are pushing the boundaries of the known world.....And I would hate to lose them....

@Pablo888

Hydrogen gas is not economically feasible for transport.

A fusion power plant looks to be far off, though many people are working on it. That may remain a dream.

We already have the energy solutions we need: solar, wind, hydro, batteries and pumped hydro.

@alan279
Does anyone know of any hydrogen projects in Brazil? - @alan279

Plenty as it is.  Just follow the news.

Your  objections notwithstanding.

Same naysayers were the types who claimed there was no oil in Brazil, or automotive manufacturing would never work because foundries do not work on Tropical Climates " .

AS usual, Americans as the prime suspects to divulge all of this nonsense.

VW just joined Toyota into the fray.  Real gains would be for freight trucks, rather. The implementation cost would demand far less sunk capital.

I've learned that the hydrogen economy is not feasible, despite the current hype. The US is spending eight billion dollars on "hydrogen hubs". The Europeans spend huge money on hydrogen projects. It's all for naught. Hydrogen doesn't work. It's simple physics.
This is a follow-up to a previous discussion. I think Brazil has avoided the hydrogen trap so far. - @alan279

Over USD  US$ 30 billions committed to projects under study.

Not built just yet.

Source

Instituto Nacional de Energia Limpa (Inel).

Slated projects...

Fortescue (Ceará)

Complexo do Pecém

Australian Mining Company

Fully operating by 2027

USD 3,5 billions

Atlas Agro (Minas Gerais)  Uberaba Green Fertilizer (UGF)

Uberaba Green Fertilizer (UGF)

For domestic consumption

530,000 tons /year

Swiss Company

Green Energy Park (Piauí)

ZPE de Parnaíba

10 years and R$ 100 billion

Fully operating by 2028

European Energy (Pernambuco)

Danish Company

Solatio (Piauí)

Green Hydrogen and Amonia

European Energy (Pernambuco)- Mostly for Maritime Transport.

Fully operating by 2028

Fuella (Rio de Janeiro)  - Hydrogen and Amonia

Unigel (Bahia)  Mostly for Fertiizers

Stalled

Qair (Pernambuco)

Fully Operational by 2032

Source

Eixos.com.br

As an American I appreciate your condescension. I think we both recognize as opposed to that sweeping brush you just painted us with that, it is some americans just like it is some of the people in every country. Every country has people below average intelligence.What can you do? 

As an American I appreciate your condescension. I think we both recognize as opposed to that sweeping brush you just painted us with that, it is some americans just like it is some of the people in every country. Every country has people below average intelligence.What can you do? - @HawkeyeSwarm

This is actually old news.  Going back to the 40's 

American industrialists and oil men  were divulging this non sense. 

Which was followed by the all out campaign "O Petroleo E Nosso"  ( The Oil is ours ). And then the groundwork to create a National Oil Company which would later become Petrobras.    Under Getulio Vargas, if not mistaken. 

And the latest iteration of this mentality is the spat between Elon Musk and Brazil's Judiciary and Executive Branches ( read Alexandre Moraes and Lula ). 

Him, represented by his cronies from the Paypal Mafia  ( along with Peter Thiel and others ) were making end runs in impoverished towns all over Latin American were they had mapped all the underground riches, and were dangling the carrot of cash on "taking care of them with Carbon Credits."

They got the nod from Bolsonaro, but when Lula came around, the deal was reneged .   As matter of fact, since Getulio Vargas, anything below ground belongs to the Federal Government with power to exploit or grant concessions.  So they can call Lula whatever they want, but he was right on the record.

The whole spat was never about freedom of press.  It was about mining concessions and land grab.

You can check it out by yourself.  Get a copy of the book from Whitney Webb, an American Investigative Journalist living in Chile.  She lays all out there bare to see. You can get the summarized preview topic on Jimmy Dore Show. 

Jimmy Dore -I'm not doubting what you're saying.I'm just doubting him.

I know what Americans have done in other countries. And quite often, it's a crony, with connections to someone in power. I'm pretty sure the world knows.  I have absolutely no reason to doubt what you're telling me. I'm just saying we're not all that way. You have to have connections to do what they did.

Jimmy Dore -I'm not doubting what you're saying.I'm just doubting him.
I know what Americans have done in other countries. And quite often, it's a crony, with connections to someone in power. I'm pretty sure the world knows. I have absolutely no reason to doubt what you're telling me. I'm just saying we're not all that way. You have to have connections to do what they did. - @HawkeyeSwarm

I lived nearly 30 years in America,. Never making a trip back, even if for old times sake.

I am in fact an US Citizen. 

Jimmy Dore is a bit wacky, off the reservation kook.   But at times, you get dirt by taking cues from both side of the isle.  Hey, I used to buy the Weeklies from the Nation of Islam, those bow tie dudes. If they are pandering the paper under a mid day scorching sun, dapper as they were, you got to give em the five bucks out of respect. And I am caucasian.

But Whitney Webb, she seemed to have a modicum of respectability and self restrain.  Not your garden variety Jacobin radical,  That would be  Abby Martin.  That sexy femme , you have to take with a grain of salt.

Mrs Webb books range on a 1000 page, so for those with the time, a good read. 

Over USD US$ 30 billions committed to projects under study.
Not built just yet.

Source
Instituto Nacional de Energia Limpa (Inel).

Slated projects...

Fortescue (Ceará)
Complexo do Pecém
Australian Mining Company
Fully operating by 2027
USD 3,5 billions

Atlas Agro (Minas Gerais) Uberaba Green Fertilizer (UGF)
Uberaba Green Fertilizer (UGF)
For domestic consumption
530,000 tons /year
Swiss Company

Green Energy Park (Piauí)
ZPE de Parnaíba
10 years and R$ 100 billion
Fully operating by 2028

European Energy (Pernambuco)
Danish Company

Solatio (Piauí)
Green Hydrogen and Amonia
European Energy (Pernambuco)- Mostly for Maritime Transport.
Fully operating by 2028

Fuella (Rio de Janeiro) - Hydrogen and Amonia

Unigel (Bahia) Mostly for Fertiizers
Stalled

Qair (Pernambuco)
Fully Operational by 2032

Source
Eixos.com.br - @sprealestatebroker

Lots of hydrogen projects are planned. Do you know of any operating green hydrogen facilities in Brazil?

@alan279

My main and only reason for responding was the way you painted all Americans with the same brush.  Like Brazilians we are not all the same. As for hydroelectric, I only worry about the things I can actually control. Trying to stop the mega rich capitalists is obviously not something I can control and can only complain about so why mess up my days thinking about it? Besides, i've got enough poop in my own litter box to scoop out. Enjoy your day !

Lots of hydrogen projects are planned. Do you know of any operating green hydrogen facilities in Brazil?
- @alan279

Hydrogen from ethanol fueling station in SP -> https://essentica.eu/news/about-the-ind … ng-station

BTW, the Toyota Mirai is a somewhat popular vehicle here in the Bay Area mainly because hydrogen is dispensed free as part of the purchase of the vehicle.  But the caveat is that there are only a few of those fueling stations in rather affluent neighborhoods.

@alan279 My main and only reason for responding was the way you painted all Americans with the same brush. Like Brazilians we are not all the same. As for hydroelectric, I only worry about the things I can actually control. Trying to stop the mega rich capitalists is obviously not something I can control and can only complain about so why mess up my days thinking about it? Besides, i've got enough poop in my own litter box to scoop out. Enjoy your day ! - @HawkeyeSwarm

  @HawkeyeSwarm - What? I'm American.