Has anyone gone through the simplified naturalization precedure?

Many groups of people in Hungary were left in the cold because of moving land borders.
My grandmother was born in Austro-Hungary and my father in Poland. Both were born in the same house.
My husband's step-father was German but his family lived in Erdely for ages.
After WW11 they were removed from the land and homes and moved to Hungary.
Had to start over again after his 5 or 6 years in a Russian POW camp, forced labor in a mine.
Came home to his land in Erdely to find another man, his wives new husband in his home with their new child.
He left on his own, gave them everything but still had to leave the area because he was German by blood.
I may just look at my files where i have stored the family tree from my father's side.
Goes back nearly 300 years and there are tons of Hungarian surnames in the mix.

Marilyn Tassy wrote:

Many groups of people in Hungary were left in the cold because of moving land borders.
My grandmother was born in Austro-Hungary and my father in Poland. Both were born in the same house.
My husband's step-father was German but his family lived in Erdely for ages.
After WW11 they were removed from the land and homes and moved to Hungary.
Had to start over again after his 5 or 6 years in a Russian POW camp, forced labor in a mine.
Came home to his land in Erdely to find another man, his wives new husband in his home with their new child.
He left on his own, gave them everything but still had to leave the area because he was German by blood.
I may just look at my files where i have stored the family tree from my father's side.
Goes back nearly 300 years and there are tons of Hungarian surnames in the mix.

Mein Gott, that's almost a total story in itself or a movie.  That sounds almost like the plot of what could be a great movie like The Way Back (I liked this movie by the way).

Surely now Marilyn, this has to be written down for your second forthcoming book.

It's got just about everything - deprivation, sacrifice, survival, love affair and eventual renewal all against a backdrop of the horror of conflict.

It's really a story I'd like to read or watch on the big screen.

And these shifting borders are no relic of the past. They continue to our own time. Think the breakups of the USSR and Yugoslavia, the takeover of Crimea, the return to China of Hong Kong and Macau, the creation of East Timor, etc.

And more no doubt on the way.

The Republic of Scotland, anyone?

Just to update the question I raised a couple of days ago.

I took a look again at the Serbian forum I mentioned here before. There's no suggestion there, even in posts within the last year, that Simplified Naturalization is now limited to ethnic Hungarians in certain cases.

As here, forum posts continue to say what counts is citizenship of your ancestor, so an ancestor born in Vojvodina (N Serbia) or continental Croatia before Trianon counts.

Not to say this is definitive, but if there had been a change of rules, I would have expected it to be news on that forum, since many Serbians applying for Simplified Naturalization do have no Hungarian ancestry.

There's also much other useful information on the forum, especially concerning the language interview and fussiness about name discrepancies in documents. The forum can be easily read with Google Translate.

The forum has changed address, though.

http://madjarskodrzavljanstvo.com

I have posted here a few times. I passed my interview and submitted my documents in Budapest in the spring of 2019. In December, I learned that my application for simplified naturalization had been rejected, with no explanation given. I was told I could not appeal this decision but that I was welcome to reapply.

As I had gotten to know two government officials (one high ranking), I asked them to look into the matter. No one from the office in Budapest that processes citizenship applications would tell them anything other than should I reapply, my paperwork would only be taken should I pass the interview and that should my documentation be incomplete, I would be contacted---guidance that was not followed last year in my case.

I had my interview scheduled for late March but the coronavirus outbreak closed the consulates. But I continue to study Hungarian to ensure I will pass again.

Over the last few months, I have continued to network with other applicants whose applications have been accepted, rejected, or gotten complicated. I do not have enough data points to feel confident as to what is going on but our hunch is that older applicants are being given more hoops to jump through or being rejected with much greater frequency.

Given that 1.1 million descendants of Hungarians have already benefited from this program, now that applications have slowed to a comparative trickle, it seems to be a strange time to become hyper-selective. Any opinions on whether ageism might now be a major factor in decisions?

worldwide_willie wrote:

.....

Over the last few months, I have continued to network with other applicants whose applications have been accepted, rejected, or gotten complicated. I do not have enough data points to feel confident as to what is going on but our hunch is that older applicants are being given more hoops to jump through or being rejected with much greater frequency.

Given that 1.1 million descendants of Hungarians have already benefited from this program, now that applications have slowed to a comparative trickle, it seems to be a strange time to become hyper-selective. Any opinions on whether ageism might now be a major factor in decisions?

Just the other day, Mrs Fluffy was wondering about the election next year. 

Previously ethnic Hungarians in the surrounding countries were given HU citizenship and bussed into HU to vote in the election.  With COVID19 they probably cannot do that next year.

Or maybe that's been milked for all they can get and now they are thinking it's not worth putting the money into the diaspora further. They've grabbed everyone they feel is worth grabbing.

Mr. and Mrs. Fluffy,

Maybe in the political sense, yes. All the folks in the mysteriously rejected pile I know are American professionals, folks with plenty of university studies and no interest in mooching off the Hungarian benefits gravy train (should such a thing exist). But it well could be that our demographics do not line up well with the ruling party's core voters.

That said, none of us are threats to national security nor aspirants to political office. We just culturally identify with Hungary and would be proud to be considered Hungarian.

worldwide_willie wrote:

Mr. and Mrs. Fluffy,

Maybe in the political sense, yes. All the folks in the mysteriously rejected pile I know are American professionals, folks with plenty of university studies and no interest in mooching off the Hungarian benefits gravy train (should such a thing exist). But it well could be that our demographics do not line up well with the ruling party's core voters.

That said, none of us are threats to national security nor aspirants to political office. We just culturally identify with Hungary and would be proud to be considered Hungarian.

Oh sure, but being a blip means less attention politically and maybe that's the reason why no resources are being allocated.   It's not about any one individual applicant's access to a "gravy train" or ambition*.   

The large population outside of HU (by HU standards) is a significant political force.  Reducing the requirements to a minimum in less economically developed countries was bound to foster a level of gratitude at the ballot box. 

Just saying what might be part of it.

* not to say it doesn't work, there's a list of people who had to renounce citizenships for public office.

I do remember seeing a stat that Hungarians outside of Hungary vote for Fidesz in landslide numbers (in Hungary’s 2014 election, over 95 percent of votes cast by non-domestic citizens went to Fidesz, according to Politico.eu). I am certain that hundreds of thousands of them feel grateful for the EU passport and the opportunities they now have to emigrate to stronger economies like Germany's.

worldwide_willie wrote:

I do remember seeing a stat that Hungarians outside of Hungary vote for Fidesz in landslide numbers (in Hungary’s 2014 election, over 95 percent of votes cast by non-domestic citizens went to Fidesz, according to Politico.eu). I am certain that hundreds of thousands of them feel grateful for the EU passport and the opportunities they now have to emigrate to stronger economies like Germany's.

Yes, indeed. 

But if they are Romanians, they are EU anyway as are most of the others. I suppose 2 million in all neighbouring countries.   By bussing them in, it ensured an absolute Fidesz majority.  Might be more difficult next time.

If you have a link to the Politico article, that would be good to read.

worldwide_willie wrote:

As I had gotten to know two government officials (one high ranking), I asked them to look into the matter.

Ah... So getting to "know a guy" and expecting special access?  Hm....   

worldwide_willie wrote:

Any opinions on whether ageism might now be a major factor in decisions?

Facts. I have none.

Opinions... Well my opinion is since those of advancing years are entitled to a large amount of free services, the current government may not be in a fiscal position to grant citizen status to people who can get freebies..... Which is economically realistic, even if not following the spirit of the law.... So you may experience extra paper work, delays, rejections, etc. etc. etc. All intended to discourage you from getting what you are legally entitled to, because your rights are not now politically expedient. IMHO (In My Humble Opinion) every government probably does this. On various topis. Not unique to Hungary. And every government will deny they do it. 

worldwide_willie wrote:

I am certain that hundreds of thousands of them feel grateful for the EU passport and the opportunities they now have to emigrate to stronger economies like Germany's.

Well.... Ain't that special.

So not wanting a Hungarian passport to move to and live in Hungary, but getting a Hungarian passport just to move to Germany.....

Well now... I am sure the Germans really feel *great* about that..... Not.....   

klsallee wrote:

worldwide_willie wrote:

I am certain that hundreds of thousands of them feel grateful for the EU passport and the opportunities they now have to emigrate to stronger economies like Germany's.

Well.... Ain't that special.

So not wanting a Hungarian passport to move to and live in Hungary, but getting a Hungarian passport just to move to Germany.....

Well now... I am sure the Germans really feel *great* about that..... Not.....   

No it's not that special.

I don't think the Germans actually care that much as they all signed up for the EU freedom of movement.  Been a while since I worked there but I was there during the time of reunification and it was very much accepted that Ossies were to be integrated with Wessies.  We also had ethnic Germans from Hungary and Romanians as well.   I never saw any indications they were anything other than welcome. 

They never said anything to me or other "older EU country" citizens either!

fluffy2560 wrote:

klsallee wrote:

worldwide_willie wrote:

I am certain that hundreds of thousands of them feel grateful for the EU passport and the opportunities they now have to emigrate to stronger economies like Germany's.

Well.... Ain't that special.

So not wanting a Hungarian passport to move to and live in Hungary, but getting a Hungarian passport just to move to Germany.....

Well now... I am sure the Germans really feel *great* about that..... Not.....   

No it's not that special.

I don't think the Germans actually care that much as they all signed up for the EU freedom of movement.  Been a while since I worked there but I was there during the time of reunification and it was very much accepted that Ossies were to be integrated with Wessies.  We also had ethnic Germans from Hungary and Romanians as well.   I never saw any indications they were anything other than welcome. 

They never said anything to me or other "older EU country" citizens either!

You are arguing from a liberal "fair and law based by the current law" view. Which I agree with.... But not necessarily realistic in the modern political world. After all... You are British. Was not Brexit a lot about keeping out foreigners? Those that take jobs? Those that affect and burden the health care system, those that burden the social security system? Yes, those were parts of the campaign to leave the EU. If those issues were real or not were irrelevant. They had an impact on the voters..... They worked.

So.... The Alternative For Germany party may not agree with you. And they are gaining popularity. And such "free movement" ideas are more and more being rejected by right wing parties. Pressing such "rights", because of citizen status laws like In Hungary, may exasperate the problem. And being part of the problem, even if one has full legal rights to be part of the problem...  may still be(come) a (political, national)  larger problem.... just saying....

klsallee wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

klsallee wrote:

Well.... Ain't that special.

So not wanting a Hungarian passport to move to and live in Hungary, but getting a Hungarian passport just to move to Germany.....

Well now... I am sure the Germans really feel *great* about that..... Not.....   

No it's not that special.

I don't think the Germans actually care that much as they all signed up for the EU freedom of movement.  Been a while since I worked there but I was there during the time of reunification and it was very much accepted that Ossies were to be integrated with Wessies.  We also had ethnic Germans from Hungary and Romanians as well.   I never saw any indications they were anything other than welcome. 

They never said anything to me or other "older EU country" citizens either!

You are arguing from a liberal "fair and law based by the current law" view. Which I agree with.... But not necessarily realistic in the modern political world. After all... You are British. Was not Brexit a lot about keeping out foreigners? Those that take jobs? Those that affect and burden the health care system, those that burden the social security system? Yes, those were parts of the campaign to leave the EU. If those issues were real or not were irrelevant. They had an impact on the voters..... They worked.

So.... The Alternative For Germany party may not agree with you. And they are gaining popularity. And such "free movement" ideas are more and more being rejected by right wing parties. Pressing such "rights", because of citizen status laws like In Hungary, may exasperate the problem. And being part of the problem, even if one has full legal rights to be part of the problem...  may still be(come) a (political, national)  larger problem.... just saying....

Well, actually I wasn't arguing from current views at all but from experience about ethnic groups in Germany.  I was talking about early 1990s when I had a stint of a few years working and living there in DE.

Things were very different to now. I only remember people complaining about the unification tax but the Germans seem to accept it begrudgingly.  I do remember seeing the work going on in Magdeburg just over the former West German border. Having been on the transit route to West Berlin previously, I could see the huge investment and modernisation in progress.  In true German style they actually pulled it off and brought it all together.  Solid job.  Who would have thought an Ossie (effectively) would be elected Chancellor (Merkel) back then.

AfD might not agree with me but it's their country and they can do what they like.  While I didn't look them up as I don't care that much,  I don't think they are complaining about the ethnic Germans or other EU citizens but  mostly Turks and the recent refugees.  The Germans were quite used to British people being around as there was very large presence in Northern Germany in the form of the military. 

When I worked there, we were throughly internationalised even though it was a very large German national business.  I used to share an office with French and Dutch guys.

As for Brexit, looking rather irrelevant at the moment as nearly everyone is on  coronavirus and it's been some years - people have forgotten why they did it.  I am, like many others,  one of the millions of disenfranchised British excluded from voting in the referendum.

Getting a bit 

@Mr. Fluffy:

The article I mentioned (and that 95% figure) can be found here:

https://www.politico.eu/article/viktor- … tion-2018/

Here are links to two other interesting articles:

http://globalcit.eu/the-curious-case-of … ountry-is/https://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/sites … udy_en.pdf

@Klsallee

Rest assured that I was not looking for a wayward Chicago alderman type to put in my pocket. I became friends with the two government officials at Hungarian social events in the US, in the case of the higher ranked one having no idea who she was. I never expected to contact them about my case at the time and, when I did, it was not to circumvent the rules or get a special favor. It was only to understand why I had been rejected as I twice wrote the citizenship office but only got a stock answer (that citizenship is granted at the discretion of the president). When one does not know why he has been rejected, it is impossible to know if he should invest lots of time and tutoring dollars tuning up his Hungarian to start the process again. How otherwise might I expect a different result?

As education, income, finances, or even criminal records are not requested as part of the simplified naturalization process, it would be hard to surmise if an applicant would become a ward of the state. In my case, I do not plan on checking into a government-run rest home in Miskolc any day soon (Miskolc being the only city of size near my ancestral stomping grounds).

worldwide_willie wrote:

@Mr. Fluffy:

The article I mentioned (and that 95% figure) can be found here:

https://www.politico.eu/article/viktor- … tion-2018/

Here are links to two other interesting articles:

http://globalcit.eu/the-curious-case-of … ountry-is/https://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/sites … udy_en.pdf

Good articles to read.  Thanks for sharing.  It was as we thought in Romania.  Orban might indeed have lost back then without them.  It's not clear on what will happen next time or how they might be encouraged to vote his way.   Maybe the COVID19 will bring about change. 

BTW, just within a few 100m of my house I know of two Romanian and one Ukranian ethnic Hungarians living and working here and have been here for some years (i.e. with kids etc).

worldwide_willie wrote:

I am certain that hundreds of thousands of them feel grateful for the EU passport and the opportunities they now have to emigrate to stronger economies like Germany's.

You're wrong, since the introduction of the simplified naturalization in 2011, less than 50k have obtained citizenship from non-eu countries (mostly Serbia and Ucraine). Source: http://www.ksh.hu/docs/hun/xftp/idoszak … lgarok.pdf .

@Atom Heart,

This is a beautiful 42-page document that you have offered up!  It is definitely a mother lode of information. I wonder if the government plans on releasing an updated version, as the total number of new citizens has grown by roughly 300k since then. Do you know?

I agree with you that my comments are off the mark concerning the tidal wave of Romanians and the trickle of Slovakians, who both already had EU passports.  Best I can tell, those two nationalities comprise 60.3% of the people that took out Hungarian nationality while residing abroad between 2011 and 2015.

However, 32.7% did so in Serbia or Ukraine and the remaining 7% from other countries with no breakdown listed. Those from non-EU countries are definitely more than 50k. By 2015, over 211k from just Serbia and Ukraine were sworn in as Hungarians.

(All statistics quoted come from page 10 of the appendix.)

worldwide_willie wrote:

@Atom Heart,

This is a beautiful 42-page document that you have offered up!  It is definitely a mother lode of information. I wonder if the government plans on releasing an updated version, as the total number of new citizens has grown by roughly 300k since then. Do you know?

I agree with you that my comments are off the mark concerning the tidal wave of Romanians and the trickle of Slovakians, who both already had EU passports.  Best I can tell, those two nationalities comprise 60.3% of the people that took out Hungarian nationality while residing abroad between 2011 and 2015.

However, 32.7% did so in Serbia or Ukraine and the remaining 7% from other countries with no breakdown listed. Those from non-EU countries are definitely more than 50k. By 2015, over 211k from just Serbia and Ukraine were sworn in as Hungarians.

(All statistics quoted come from page 10.)

I was looking at page 9, that chart only shows the ones living in Hungary, my bad.

atomheart wrote:

, my bad.

I gave you a thumbs up simply for that. 

What the "issue" was you were referring to, to me is irrelevant.

In this polarized world, all too often people are afraid to admit error. But to error is human. Kudos to you for your post!!!!   

Willie,

I really feel that you should apply again in the US, and not in Hungary this time. Most of the bad news I've heard about doing simplified naturalization comes from people who have applied in Budapest. I have no logical explanation for it, just speculation: perhaps higher language skills are expected? Perhaps the people working in Budapest are more hardened towards applicants than their counterparts assigned to the US etc., due to seeing a much higher volume of such applicants? Perhaps the cultural attitude of a bureaucrat who has never lived abroad is not as open as one who has been assigned to the US for a long time?

In any case, I had my interview in the fall of 2018 at the LA consulate, and got notified my application was accepted at the start of summer 2019. The consul who I interviewed with was an extremely kind lady, even though I kind of butchered the language due to nervousness. There were fewer than a dozen people at my oath ceremony, so I don't think they get a whole lot of applicants anymore. By the way I'm in my 30s and fairly educated (Master's degree) so I'm not sure if one's education is related but one's age may be.

idegen wrote:

Most of the bad news I've heard about doing simplified naturalization comes from people who have applied in Budapest.

It's not the consulates where the decision is made, it's immigration (BMBAH that reviews the proofs you submitted, then the president's office that makes the call). If you fail the language test, you should be rejected right away, I assume...

atomheart wrote:

....If you fail the language test, you should be rejected right away, I assume...

Oh, so my plan of acting deaf and dumb isn't going to work out although I could learn more sign language.

FYI....


Hungary: British FCO updates advice noting prevention measures

On 20 April 2020 the British Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO) updated its advice for Hungary to note prevention measures associated with the ongoing coronavirus outbreak. From 09:00 – 12:00 local time (07:00 – 10:00 GMT) daily, only individuals over the age of 65 will be permitted to shop for essential items such as food and medicine. Additionally, beginning 27 April, all passengers aboard public transport in the capital Budapest will be required to wear a face-covering garment such as a mask or scarf. Additional restrictions could be implemented in the near term as the outbreak progresses.

A question for Willie, if he's still around.

I recall you applied with an old church record. Did the church record explicitly state "place of birth"?

Old church records usually come from the book of parish births. The actual entry for each birth doesn't normally show a specific birthplace. It's taken as a given that the book records parish births and that the child was therefore born in that parish.

But I recently emailed the Budapest office about a church record and got back a response suggesting -- but not absolutely stating -- that there could be a problem since it doesn't explicitly state the birthplace, although the attached documents certify it's an extract from the XXX parish's book of births.

As to whether to apply in the U.S., I do have the sense that the diplomats that staff the embassy and consulates are far easier to deal with in person than the staff of government offices in Hungary. I also recall coming across a news story a long time ago in which a Hungarian official said that applicants from neighboring countries are held to a higher language standard than far distant applicants.

The main advantage of applying in Hungary is simply that it's quicker.

To all of you that posted recently about my case, THANKS!

The decisions definitely are made in a centralized office in Budapest, not at the district office or consulate where you apply. And, yes, my grandfather's baptism records stated the village name and it is still part of Hungary.

For reasons not especially clear to me, the consulates in the US that formally just took your papers and threw easy questions your way now have been mandated to (1) conduct interviews with two officials present and (2) send detailed notes on the interview in with your paperwork. I imagine this is the same worldwide.

My interview in Budapest was much easier than I expected but that was a year ago. I would not be surprised if the same tightening of the process now applies to district offices in Hungary.

Since being rejected months after my interview, I have learned of 4 other cases of Americans I met due to sharing the same language tutor who passed their interview and had no issues with paperwork but were also rejected without explanation in late 2019 or early 2020. The only thing we have in common is age (55 or over). We had passed our interviews at different locations and none of us was later asked for additional documents.

I plan on interviewing and reapplying but, to be honest, between studying Hungarian for hours on end and suspecting the rules are now against us geezers, I am not as enthusiastic about becoming Hungarian as I was a year ago.

worldwide_willie wrote:

I am not as enthusiastic about becoming Hungarian as I was a year ago.

I would say, by dissent, and history, you are Hungarian. Period.
What some silly government wants to bestow on you, or reject from you, are simply pieces of paper. They are in many ways important in a logistics sense, but in the most important ways...  the ways that are about who you really are as a person, those pieces of paper are irrelevant.  Pieces of paper, while nice to have in the "world", are based on politics. And politics can deign you pieces of paper... Politics and politicians be damned. They can not take away from you what is more, and most, important: Your family history. 

So not matter what... keep up learning Hungarian. It is part of your personal history. (but maybe change language tutors.... the one you have may not be best for you .... )

How true. I will always love certain Hungarian foods and bands, cherish my memories of 8 trips to Hungary, and, of course, not lose contact with my relatives there.

I should have said "Hungarian citizen" because unfortunately that honor is only granted by a faceless bureaucracy that does not appreciate people like me nearly as much as I look up to the country it represents.

Hello all!

It's been a while since I last posted. I'm back with more questions.

Does anyone have tips for getting documents from the Hungarian National Archives? I'm in a Facebook group for Hungarian Citizenship Journeys and I got an email address from another individual whose family is from my area (both in the US and in Hungary/Austria). He said he described the documents he was looking for, and gave them his address. Then the documents showed up (authenticated, and potentially apostilled) with a bill in his postal mailbox a few weeks later. I contacted the same email, gave them the relevant information as well as my postal address and they're able to find the documents and have sent them to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade. They've instructed me to request the documents myself, which I can't do at this time since it requires a printed application and a whole circus to even send in the request.

Meanwhile, I contacted the Hungarian National Archives directly and they gave me the microfilm locations of the documents and an order form for copies--but specifically mentioned that they'd be like the copies I can download for free on FamilySearch.org and thus they do not know whether they'd be sufficient for Simplified Naturalization.

I also contacted my local Consulate and they asked if I needed assistance with translations of the documents--when I clearly specified that I need assistance just getting the documents in the first place.

In the facebook group there is a person who sometimes goes and gets certified copies of documents from local parishes (through a POA agreement, and for money) but he is currently unavailable as he is recovering from spine surgery. He also wants over 200 EUR for two copies each of 2 documents, and I just don't have that kind of money for that right now (the rest of my documents combined cost that much, for 2 copies each).

Does anyone have experience getting certified copies of these documents?

Hi. I am also on that FB group..it is wildly active!

Do documents from Hungary need to be certified? I just submitted a signed letter from my grandfather's family's church with all the dates and names. I went to the village myself and looked through all these yellowed books in order to find the relevant information from the 1800's. The priest said I could have just requested he do so but it was an unforgettable experience. I submitted it as my only non-US document and as the only non-certified one.

Can't the National Archives give you a letter of authentication that your relative was born when/where/to whom? Otherwise it would just be the same thing you could download.

When I had to get official birth & marriage certificates dating to the late 19th century from Hungary I filled out some forms that were on the consulate's website and received them in a few months, specifically this birth certificate request form and this marriage certificate request form from the Hungarian consulate in Los Angeles (look at this page for details).

Would this be possible in your situation?

They've instructed me to request the documents myself, which I can't do at this time since it requires a printed application and a whole circus to even send in the request.

He also wants over 200 EUR for two copies each of 2 documents, and I just don't have that kind of money for that right now (the rest of my documents combined cost that much, for 2 copies each).

It sounds like you are either going to be spending time, or spending money. Some people pay hundreds of thousands just for residence in the EU (via Portugal's golden visa scheme, for example), so don't feel too bad about it

idegen wrote:

When I had to get official birth & marriage certificates dating to the late 19th century from Hungary I filled out some forms that were on the consulate's website and received them in a few months, specifically this birth certificate request form and this marriage certificate request form from the Hungarian consulate in Los Angeles (look at this page for details).

Would this be possible in your situation?

This is literally *exactly* what I'm trying to do--it sounds like you are doing the same thing my friend did (albeit with forms). Do you know if I can use these forms with a different consulate (chicago) or whether I can just use the LA consulate even though it is not mine?

Wait, the relevante page states this:

Certificates can be requested only if the birth, marriage, divorce or death occurred in the present-day territory of Hungary. Please note that state and municipal registration has been in place since 1895.

Unfortunately, these documents are church records from Felterony, which is present-day Austria. So, it sounds like this wouldn't work. These documents are also from before 1895, which is why they're church records.

worldwide_willie wrote:

Hi. I am also on that FB group..it is wildly active!

Do documents from Hungary need to be certified? I just submitted a signed letter from my grandfather's family's church with all the dates and names. I went to the village myself and looked through all these yellowed books in order to find the relevant information from the 1800's. The priest said I could have just requested he do so but it was an unforgettable experience. I submitted it as my only non-US document and as the only non-certified one.

Can't the National Archives give you a letter of authentication that your relative was born when/where/to whom? Otherwise it would just be the same thing you could download.

The signed letter you received IS a certification, since the church is the one who holds that document. Unfortunately that kind of exchange is only possible on-ground and not digitally (this is what the person charging 200+ EUR would be doing, just asking the priest for the relevant info and the letter).

I will ask the Archives for a letter of authentication but I feel like they maybe would have offered that information if it was a possibility?

I'm deeply confused whether the document you're looking for is in the Austrian or the Hungarian archives. If it's in the Austrian Archives, then no, the Hungarian consulate can't help you.

However, my understanding is that if you do get a certificate from the Austrian Archives then that alone is good: it doesn't have to be apostilled or legalised. What you'll probably get from the Austrian Archives is a copy of the page recording your ancestor's birth and a letter from the Archives certifying the particular parish record, volume and page, where it was found.

Of course this will all be in German and you'll presumably need it translated.

zif wrote:

I'm deeply confused whether the document you're looking for is in the Austrian or the Hungarian archives. If it's in the Austrian Archives, then no, the Hungarian consulate can't help you.

However, my understanding is that if you do get a certificate from the Austrian Archives then that alone is good: it doesn't have to be apostilled or legalised. What you'll probably get from the Austrian Archives is a copy of the page recording your ancestor's birth and a letter from the Archives certifying the particular parish record, volume and page, where it was found.

Of course this will all be in German and you'll presumably need it translated.

It is in the Hungarian National Archives in Budapest according to the contact I was emailing with. They will not give me a letter with the information you've indicated that would certify it's authenticity. They have given me reference numbers to request copies of the document, as well as the document pricing sheet and the order form. This would be a copy for genealogical research purposes--it would not be considered 'official' for the simplified naturalization process because it would be missing all of that authenticity information.  For reference, this is the site for the Archives that I am talking about: https://mnl.gov.hu/ol (turning the language to Angol the first line is 'Welcome to the National Archives of Hungary!').

I can understand the confusion as the documents are not SUPPOSED to be there, since the area is now Austria, but are they are there (in microfilm at least). I have contacted the Diocese of Gyor to see if they are better able to assist me, since I found stuff online saying they took part in a project to digitize everything for that area. I will also be looking for contacts in Austria. The issue is not that the document cannot be located, it's that nobody is willing to provide additional documentation saying 'yes, this document that you see is a document that exists that we have record of'. It's available for free viewing on both the Archives site and FamilySearch.org, which is a different genealogical site--and I can even download it directly from FamilySearch which is what the Archives suggested I do as it would be the same thing that they could provide (except free).

I looked up "Felterony" in the 1907 Hungarian Gazeteer and couldn't find it. There is, though, a Féltorony, now known as Halbturn, the German equivalent of Féltorony I think. So if you're asking in Austria, I assume you should be asking about Halbturn.

And I think we've mentioned before here that if you can find a microfilm on Family Search, there's usually a notation on the page showing the location of the original document where it was microfilmed.

EDIT:

Assuming you're in the records of the Roman Catholic Church, Family Search does say that it microfilmed the originals at the National Archives in Budapest. "Az eredeti iratok mikrofilmrevétele Budapesten a Magyar Országos Levéltárban történt." I think it'd be very unlikely then that the Austrian Archives holds a duplicate, though perhaps the Church has a copy somewhere. I understand that originally these records -- which the Church was required to make as a matter of law -- were done in duplicate. But the parish church's copy might have been lost over time or passed up to a regional Church archive, etc.

zif wrote:

I looked up "Felterony" in the 1907 Hungarian Gazeteer and couldn't find it. There is, though, a Féltorony, now known as Halbturn, the German equivalent of Féltorony I think. So if you're asking in Austria, I assume you should be asking about Halbturn.

And I think we've mentioned before here that if you can find a microfilm on Family Search, there's usually a notation on the page showing the location of the original document where it was microfilmed.

EDIT:

Assuming you're in the records of the Roman Catholic Church, Family Search does say that it microfilmed the originals at the National Archives in Budapest. "Az eredeti iratok mikrofilmrevétele Budapesten a Magyar Országos Levéltárban történt." I think it'd be very unlikely then that the Austrian Archives holds a duplicate, though perhaps the Church has a copy somewhere. I understand that originally these records -- which the Church was required to make as a matter of law -- were done in duplicate. But the parish church's copy might have been lost over time or passed up to a regional Church archive, etc.

Yes, my keyboard that I was using doesn't have the accents. Felterony and Féltorony are the same city (minus my typo of the extra e vs o).

I saw the note on FamikySearch months ago, which is why I emailed the Hungarian National Archives. They're the ones who were working with me regarding getting an official copy and they're the same ones who said they wouldn't be able to provide any sort of authentication with the copy they sell (and that they basically just sell the same thing that we see on FamilySearch, which is why they suggested I could download it for free from there as well).

I've also emailed the Diocese of Györ today to see if they can assist me in locating the church parish which may have the records, or if they'd be willing to provide a letter to authenticate a copy of the microfilm. I found a page online that said they have the documents from the 19th and early 20th centuries. One person on the facebook group said they were able to find the church of their ancestor and get these records for free directly from the church, so that's the plan at the moment.