Making a WILL and passing property to someone

I looked at this some time ago.

Consider the tax implications and where you live.

If she's your GF, she'll have to pay tax on the inheritance.  If she's she's your wife, she'll inherit at a lower rate of tax. 

All fixed immovable property in Hungary is subject to Hungarian inheritance law regardless of where you are resident or any other will made in another country.  The property would be split with your married partner and kids.  If you are not married, you need to leave it to her but look carefully at the tax issue.  If you have kids, they will get part anyway.

You might want to ensure that any will you make takes into account any divorce situation that could occur.  i.e. if you split up from her, then she'll be cut out.   If you think that's a possibility, then do not have the property in both your names, only yours. 

If you are married in the UK, you should register the marriage in HU (it will be recognised anyway so long as was a legal marriage with paperwork).

Our own situation mirrors yours.  I consulted a lawyer in the UK and she was useless on Hungarian law but I found out anyway that as we were married, she'd get the HU property anyway and it'll be split with the kids, so it was not necessary to have a will in Hungary. For my pathetically small foreign assets - in the UK - it was necessary to have a will if not married but if married, it was also not necessary as the wife gets the lot anyway.   

A lot of this depends on the value and taxes. To make sure  I've got all that right, best to consult a tax lawyer if a lot of money is at risk. A lot of uncertainty was swept away when we got married.

Better see a lawyer and have a contract written up if you don't want people tryng to get a piece of the action later.
With HU law if you do not have a will or contract written legally then it gets crazy.
So many loop holes etc.
Your wife should get half and the other half divided equally  between any children you have.
If the property is a main home for your wife then she may have the right to stay in the property until her death if any children decide to sell out.
I have heard of cases where adult children want their cash so toss mama out of her home, she gets half the sale of property but still out on the street.
She can buy off the children, that's why a legal will/ contract must be written out.
In some cases even cousins, aunts, siblings of your s may want a piece of the pie.
I know my MIL had a contract for her one daughter to get all their property on their death in exchange for her to care for them in their old age. All was good for a cople of years but they didn't die fast enough for her greedy hands, she got nasty with her parents and stressed them out so much their health got bad.
My MIL wrote her girl out of her will and one son out because he was not helping her at all with anything, just waiting for her to croak and collect his share.
IN comes my husband and I from the US.  My MIL felt badly that her 2 adult kids living in HU got a large piece of land she bought for her 3 kids. MY husband was left out of the deal when he left HU, his 2 siblings bulit homes and took all the land for themselves.
My MIL wrote a legal contract with her lawyer to give half her home to my husband on her death . Not so easy though, we had to show good cause to get it. We had to support her monthly with bank payments to show we were caring for her even though we were out of HU at that time.
His sister was madder then a hatter but it was her own fault.
My BIL was also upset because he didn't get his 1/3 rd of half the huse.
My FIL was too late in changing his will, SIL treated him badly and he was about to write her off but died before he could see his lawyer.She got half the house through her old contract with her step-father, iron clad since he was dead. He had even written his one true son out of his will because of his contract with my SIL. He didn't get a penny from his father.
Like I said it gets nasty in HU when money is the issue.
I have forgotten the exact amount of funds we had to send her, it was about $300.per month for years. The lawyer  set the rates, couldn't do it for less then $300. a month direct deposit into her bank in HU. At least my MIL was decent, didn't actually need our support, when she passed away we found an account with the funds just for us, she gave back every penny we had ever sent her, that was a surprise.
See a lawyer.
I know my husbands half sister was very friendly with us after not being part of his life since she was 8 years old.
MY husband made contact with her and she was really nice, at first. Then she started acting cold with us.
Couldn't figure out what happened. Thought it over and realized she probably got afraid that my husband and his 2 other siblings would try to get part of her and theirs father nice 5th district flat. He died and then she got weird with us.
She had no reason to fear, my husband couldn't care less about the flat and the other 2 siblings didn't even know we had contact with her.
Money makes people go insane.
We plan on selling our flat and spending the cash before we die, maybe put a couple bucks away for our son but then again maybe not.

Sorry for my long post, best to write up a will in Hungary with a lawyer, a notary won't do in HU.

Under the Hague Convention, freehold property can only pass by will of the country it is located in. You therefore have to have 2 wills, one drawn up for your english estate according to the law of england and wales, the other for your Hungarian freehold estate (+ what goes with it if it suits you). In practice, they can be signed up the same way. They can be in either language. If you do not, your estate will pass according to the intestacy rules (In UK 1926 Intestacy Act), which in Hungary is strict linear inheritance. If you pass in Hungary outside the familial / linear route, your heir will have to pay the full 4% land registration (+ standard 1% solicitors charge). Sorry they make marriage the cheaper option, as that will only be avoided if you pass to wife or child.

Don't take bloggers advice,because everyone has a different take on it.
But the fact is your property comes under the jurisdiction of the law of your Nationality,so look it up at the Gov website,as I did. The inheritor will have no tax to pay on the first £325.000. The Solicitor or whomever was nominated in the will to be the executor of the estate will transfer the deeds of the property,and it will be the inheritors duty to then have the property re-registered in the name of the benefactor,its as simple as that.

Sorry that will not transfer the property to his girlfriend, because he will not have a Hungarian will, only address his tax liability assuming that it is to be UK. This blogger has been there and done it and also happens to be retired lecturer on Inheritance tax law and author of 2 books on the subject.

You are definitely mis-informed,I have property in Hungary,and a Hungarian lawyer as well, U.K Citizens such as my self can own property in Hungary obviously,and carry a residency card with the purchase. When the property is inherited the beneficiary {again obviously] obtains the deed transference, and then will contact the Hungarian Solicitor who registered the property,to solicit the re-registration.
I have already gone through the process, so no contest!

I suggest you read the question asked in the first place [Moderated]. I have other things to do with my day than engage with somebody who has nothing better to do than go online looking for an argument.

[Moderated] I addressed the situation of your not being married, in which case you will need the Hungarian will.

Your statement ' the fact is your property comes under the jurisdiction of the law of your Nationality' is just plain wrong. It applies to tax purposes on UK citizens only. The UK don't attempt to treat Hungary as being within their jurisdiction. You should make an effort to understand what you read before you regurgitate to the unsuspecting. I suggest you apologise.

I suggest that everyone take a deep breathe and get back on topic minus the personal remarks before admin look at closing this thread.

You are welcome to agree to disagree in a friendly way to keep this thread on an even keel.

Hello everyone,

As our Expert Stumpy mentioned, please let us share on the topic and provide the OP with relevant infos on his queries.

Avoid any unnecessary arguments as it does not add up to the discussion.

Some posts have been partly moderated, let us move on and get back to the topic.

All the best 
Bhavna

David is right. My UK lawyer told me the same.  Hungarian inheritance law applies to immovable property located in Hungary.  UK law applies to things located there.  Other inheritance rules on movable assets are usually all about tax and depend on where you live.   Two wills are required and therefore that costs money and if UK lawyers are involved, plenty of it. £250 an hour.   

On the other hand, one can remove much uncertainty by getting married and having property in both names.  It's all pretty clear cut if one is married with kids. So we're married and as our HU lawyer explained, it's clear cut here.

Despite the anecdotal discussion, in practice it's very hard to get someone out of property ownership.  Mrs Fluffy is a part owner of a run down property with too many owners and would like to sell it but cannot without others agreeing.

It's possible to sell inherited shares in a property in Hungary, so children could sell their shares to someone else which would complicate things no end.  I don't know why posters here say that aunts and uncles and cousins or whoever etc get involved in wanting a cut.  The law here is clear that there's a hierarchy of inheritance.  If the spouse and kids get their distribution, then there's nothing for others. 

In my view, people here should write wills that force the sale of property and distribute the cash.  These weird multi-owner properties here are a nightmare.  I say this on the assumption there is no surviving spouse or kids to inherit. In which case, liquidate and distribute. Possibly give 3 months to come to an agreement if someone wants to buy another's share.  if not resolved,  sell and cash in.  Then it won't all be tied up in family arguments for many years to come. 

It's an absolute nightmare that in Mrs Fluffy's case has been going on for close to 40 years and now has incrementally increased to include more properties as the previous generation passes.  It's also increased complexity by the appearance of half-siblings, deaths of direct line inheritors, second husbands and wives, childless family members, people living overseas and older people on the edge of dementia etc.   The longer these things are unresolved, the worse it is. 

Mrs Fluffy and I have discussed it between us and our plan is to kill these issues stone dead when it comes to our jointly owned property - she'll get the lot or I will.   We also have been working slowly with our HU lawyer to clear up everything else so our kids don't get screwed up by the same issues.  I probably won't do anything about my miniscule assets in the UK.  Mrs Fluffy should get it by default.

I think much goes back to some other postings we've had on here.  NEVER own property in HU with anyone other than your very immediate family.   But be careful, even with your own kids, they can go off the rails.

Just from experience, my next door neighbor died and her nephew got her flat. My husbands uncle died and  his great niece got his nice flat in the 5th from her uncle only because she BS ed him into letting her put her name on as a resident, the property should of gone straight to my MIL his only surviving sibling, not to just one  Great niece when there were plenty of other nieces and nephews. who were more closely related to him.See a lawyer because again, HU has so many loop holes in their laws and it all comes down to who you pay off.

I looked it up the linear inheritance rule again and it's like this for Intestacy (without a will):

Persons succeeding a person who dies intestate are called legal heirs; they are, in hierarchical order:

a) The children of the deceased,
b) The descendants of the children,
c) The spouse of the deceased (only in the absence of children),
d) His parents,
e) The descendants of the parents (in the same manner in which the descendants of a child succeed in the case of disqualification of a child),
f) The grandparents of the deceased,
g) The descendants of the grandparents,
h) More distant ancestors and, finally, in the absence of relatives,
i) The Hungarian state.

The hierarchy of the legal heirs is very strict: a person who is lower in the order can only be regarded as a legal heir if all persons standing higher in the hierarchy disqualify. At each level, the estate is divided equally between those entitled.

Rules of intestacy are regarded as subsidiary: they are applied only if the testator has made no will or if the will does not include provisions for the disposal of the whole estate.

Contrary to many other European legal systems, a Hungarian spouse does not inherit property from the deceased if the descendants are still alive. The spouse only inherits property as a legal heir in the absence of descendants. The existence of only one child of the deceased, regardless of whether from the present or a previous marriage, or a born out of wedlock, leaves the spouse with empty hands.

The Civil Code solves this problem by declaring that the spouse inherits beneficial interest in all property not otherwise inherited by the spouse (the so-called right of survivorship). This legal right is created automatically for the benefit of the deceaseds spouse, and provides an unlimited right to use the property.

This may create difficult legal situations (e.g. the children of the deceased inherit property which is of no value to them because of restrictions arising from the beneficial interest of the spouse). In order to solve this problem, the Civil Code declares that the Right of Survivorship can be limited at any time; however this limited right must also consider the needs of the spouse.

Best advice - to wrap it up - is to consult a lawyer!

That is really helpful to everyone. To stress, that is the Hungarian position, which is different from the law of Intestacy in England and Wales. So too is the law of family provisions, whereby the Courts can over rule a will in particular circumstances to protect descendants / dependents.

To the moderator only.
Thank you for your intervention.
I gave a wholly accurate and professional answer to a question raised. I did not and would not expect a 3rd party to preface his reply
'Don't take bloggers advice, because everyone has a different take on it.'
To me that negates what the site is about, and has no place in civilised conversation. I would always in any situation counter that sort of egoistic attitude. It is made worse by the fact that it was coming from somebody who patently didn't understand the original question.

Interesting that no one mentioned a trust. In other words, one way to clarify property ownership and avoid things like inheritance taxes is to make the actual owner of the property immortal under the law (such as a trust, or in the US a Family LLC).

A trust is not just for the wealthy. But I do not know if this option is applicable here, or even available in the UK or Hungary, or what they entail under each country's law. So, I concern:

fluffy2560 wrote:

Best advice - to wrap it up - is to consult a lawyer!

klsallee wrote:

...A trust is not just for the wealthy. But I do not know if this option is applicable here, or even available in the UK or Hungary, or what they entail under each country's law.

You can have a trust in the UK.  The main place people used place them is offshore, in Jersey for example.  One has to be seriously wealthy to make it worthwhile. 

Probably many people with property in the UK could find themselves millionaires without being really conscious of it.   The price of property there is absurd. 

I have a feeling that in Hungary, there's anti-avoidance legislation which does not allow such tax avoiding constructs.

Trusts are a very UK concept. They should never be assumed to be a part of any other jurisdiction.

davidpearce wrote:

Trusts are a very UK concept. They should never be assumed to be a part of any other jurisdiction.

I assume you mean trusts are not then a legal option Hungary, since this topic is between the UK and Hungary. Good to know.

But generically speaking, trusts do exist in other places, such as in the USA too, not just the UK. 

Thank You all for your comments. So myy current sitution/options are as follows:

I am with Hungarian girlfriend who has 4 Hungarian children from two previous marriages. I am British (UK Citizen) who has one property in Hungary. From the replies, I am assuming the following (if I got your replies correct!):

Option 1 - Marry her in the UK. Take marriage papers to Hungary to be acknowledge. I then die! and she gets the property automatically?......or would her children get 50% of the property? I am thinking just she would, but my interpreation of the replies may be wrong?

Option 2 - Don't marry her. Don't have a will made in the UK because it will be useless? If so, I need a will written in Hungary by my Hungarian lawyer?

Questions:

What if I gift her the property or put it under her name in some way? Would she then just pay a gift or inheritance tax of some sort?

Is it possible to have the property in two names, regardless if married or not? If so, what are the tax implications (again, some sort of gift tax?)

Peter

After reading these posts I am freaking out a bit.
We bought a flat in Hu 10 years ago. Husband is a HU citizen and I am American( actually he is dual)
We put the flat only in his name when we bought because at the time one needed a special permit to buy in HU as a non EU citizen, not sure if that is still the case or not.
Just faster and cheaper at the time to put our flat in his name only.
Now I am ready to sell out in a flash, looks like if he croaks on me I won't have a penny of my funds back, all goes to our only child who does not even live in HU?
I will not sink another hard earned penny into the place if that is the case.
Wow, one day a property owner and the next day a bag lady?
Starting the think the laws in HU are very 19th century, women had no say in anything and could not own property.

Time to revamp the laws!
I know some people don't wish their children to get anything after they pass on, some kids just don't care enough about their parents to give them a red cent.
We had planned on selling out  now it seems like a good time to do so rather then see a lawyer and change everything at this late date.
Better keep my husband full of vitamins and no stress until we sell out!!

Marilyn Tassy wrote:

After reading these posts I am freaking out a bit.
We bought a flat in Hu 10 years ago. Husband is a HU citizen and I am American( actually he is dual)
We put the flat only in his name when we bought because at the time one needed a special permit to buy in HU as a non EU citizen, not sure if that is still the case or not.
Just faster and cheaper at the time to put our flat in his name only.
Now I am ready to sell out in a flash, looks like if he croaks on me I won't have a penny of my funds back, all goes to our only child who does not even live in HU?

Yup, that's about the size of it.   Non-EU citizens still need permission but it's rarely refused for apartments. Better really to write out a will that leaves the entire place to the surviving spouse so if he pops off you get the lot and if you hit the pearly gates, he gets it instead.  Otherwise your son gets it all and you only have a right to use it.

petercori wrote:

I am with Hungarian girlfriend who has 4 Hungarian children.....

Now you are asking for trouble. Suddenly it's much more complicated.   As soon as you have more than one HU person involved, it's already going to go wrong. 

How old are these kids? If they are adults, they are nothing to do with you.

And if they are not adults and you are not going to adopt them, they are not related to you at all.

But don't take my word for it. 

petercori wrote:

Option 1 - Marry her in the UK. Take marriage papers to Hungary to be acknowledge. I then die! and she gets the property automatically?......or would her children get 50% of the property? I am thinking just she would, but my interpreation of the replies may be wrong?

As above. Not your kids but hers.

petercori wrote:

Option 2 - Don't marry her. Don't have a will made in the UK because it will be useless? If so, I need a will written in Hungary by my Hungarian lawyer?

Yes, you need that HU will as the property is here.

petercori wrote:

What if I gift her the property or put it under her name in some way? Would she then just pay a gift or inheritance tax of some sort?

It'll be like she bought the place and she'd have to pay the property acquisition tax on it.  It's very common to put property in your kids name here when they are minors. I wouldn't do it myself. Kids can go bad as can wives.

petercori wrote:

Is it possible to have the property in two names, regardless if married or not? If so, what are the tax implications (again, some sort of gift tax?)

Yes, possible.  Being married doesn't matter for the property registration.  For the tax thing,  I think if I remember properly, the tax on passing over a property to a spouse is 2% but don't quote me on that.  It's a pretty mean tax really.

I would exercise real caution and get your HU lawyer on the job.

Visiting our son ATM in the US, better not tell him this or he may give us more then cap nip in our tea!!

The changing of names on the Hungarian property register can be an expensive business. Once you have been registered owner for a year, the change of name carries a 4% charge. If you remain one of the 2 names, that becomes 2%. UNLESS it is within the line of descent. + there is a standard charge by solicitor of 1%.
In my own case,I split with wife a few days before she became wife. I took the property in the settlement. I did the transfer just before the year expired. It cost me 1% solicitor fee. If I had delayed it, the cost of recovering my own property would have been 2+1%. That is of course in addition to the 4% you paid when you first registered the property.
It is not dis-similar to UK, UK has stamp duty and land registration charges. Slovakia has full VAT (19%) on property transfer. When my property tax in Hungary is £17 a year compared with £1700 in UK, any feeling of financial discomfort subsides.

Maybe I am playing Devils Advocate here, but this is not your wife. You said 'girl friend', so not even fiancé? Who started all this issue about your property? You, or her? It just all seems odd to me. Hate to say this but people here have done more for less to get someone else's assets.

Just create a will in Hungary for your Hungarian property. Forget the whole marrage issue as not relevant. Then if things do not work out, just change your will.

There have been recent changes in the law in Hungary affecting the whole balance of rights in cohabiting relations. I have never needed to look at them, but tread carefully or better still find out more from somebody who is up to date on the issue.

Marilyn Tassy wrote:

Starting the think the laws in HU are very 19th century, women had no say in anything and could not own property.

Time to revamp the laws!

I am originally from Hungary, left at 18 and have lived in the UK for almost twenty years. Stumbled upon this thread while looking for information re: making a will in Hungary. I do not mean to be personal, but I find what you write here quite condescending. Sadly, my mother passed away when my brother and I were still children. She did not make a will as she died young and quite unexpectedly. It is only thanks to the Hungarian legal system that my brother and I got any inheritance, as our father did everything in his power to get hold of my mother's half of the property after she died. There is a very good reason to make sure children inherit after the death of a parent, and it has nothing to do with Hungary being some 'backward' country.

If you decided to buy a property under your husband's name only, that was your decision - I would personally never do that, even though I am Hungarian with a 19th century mind apparently, but still I realize that if something is in one person's name, than it is that person's property only and not mine, even if we are married. I know Americans need a permission to buy property in Hungary, but that is just a formality, permission is practically always granted. If you decided not to ask for it, you should not blame the Hungarian legal system.

davidpearce wrote:

Under the Hague Convention, freehold property can only pass by will of the country it is located in. You therefore have to have 2 wills, one drawn up for your english estate according to the law of england and wales, the other for your Hungarian freehold estate (+ what goes with it if it suits you).

Hi - I am sorry to ask for free legal advice here, but you seem to know a lot about this subject and I am trying to take advantage . I am a dual British-Hungarian citizen, have property in Hungary and the UK. I have already made a will in the UK, leaving my property there to my British partner (we are not married and do not have children). I would like to leave my property in Hungary to my brother. My question is: is it enough for me to make a will in Hungarian mentioning that one property only, or do I have to say in the same will that I have property elsewhere and who am I leaving that to? Many thanks in advance for your help.

klsallee wrote:

Maybe I am playing Devils Advocate here, but this is not your wife. You said 'girl friend', so not even fiancé? Who started all this issue about your property? You, or her? It just all seems odd to me. Hate to say this but people here have done more for less to get someone else's assets.

Maybe you are well meaning, but not sure whether you realize how potentially offensive it is what you write here... I am Hungarian, and it so happens that when I met my British partner years ago, I already had a British passport, good qualifications and a good job I was happy with, and he happened to be unemployed at the time. I cannot count the number of people we encountered - including all his friends and family - who suggested I was with him for his money (?) or his passport (?). It is so pathetic, just saying. Would you say the same thing if the girlfriend was British? Do you know how many British women are out there who have lots of kids from different fathers, live on benefits and are looking for a guy with money to support them? But of course, if it is an 'Eastern European' woman, it is all about money on their part - got it.

ExpatHungarian wrote:

klsallee wrote:

Maybe I am playing Devils Advocate here, but this is not your wife. You said 'girl friend', so not even fiancé? Who started all this issue about your property? You, or her? It just all seems odd to me. Hate to say this but people here have done more for less to get someone else's assets.

Maybe you are well meaning, but not sure whether you realize how potentially offensive it is what you write here... I am Hungarian, and it so happens that when I met my British partner years ago, I already had a British passport, good qualifications and a good job I was happy with, and he happened to be unemployed at the time. I cannot count the number of people we encountered - including all his friends and family - who suggested I was with him for his money (?) or his passport (?). It is so pathetic, just saying. Would you say the same thing if the girlfriend was British? Do you know how many British women are out there who have lots of kids from different fathers, live on benefits and are looking for a guy with money to support them? But of course, if it is an 'Eastern European' woman, it is all about money on their part - got it.

Please try to stick to the topic, thank you

Romaniac
Expat.com Experts Team

I would never either claim the UK legal system to be superior or more developed than anywhere else. More importantly though, it should always be emphasised that nothing should be assumed from a knowledge of UK law because there are significant differences in all arenas.
I am only to ready to state that in the two arenas in which I have had to cope with Hungarian legal processes - House purchase and debt recovery, I have preferred working with the Hungarian system as much the more straightforward and user friendly. You will note that I make no claims about its speed!

romaniac wrote:

Please try to stick to the topic, thank you

Romaniac
Expat.com Experts Team

Ok, so saying that the Eastern European woman surely just wants the British guy's money is 'sticking to the topic', but pointing out how offensive this might be to Eastern European women is not. This is the first time I visited this forum today, but will probably be the last time too, I guess.

Nobody said "that the Eastern European woman surely just wants the British guy's money".  If you are only here now to start unnecessary and unhelpful arguments, then this forum will not miss you when you leave.  Now if you have something more useful to contribute to the topic, please do so. 

Romaniac

Firstly the Hague Convention circumscribes you in relation to freehold property only. All other chattels, indeed other land interests can be dealt with by either will.
To avoid problems you should state in each will that there is another will dealing with x, y and z, in the other country.
You must ensure that there is nothing contradictory between the wills.
You should take care to have witnesses who are NOT beneficiaries of either will. It is easier if possible to have the same executor for both.
If you are leaving Hungarian property outside the listed priorities, then you should be discussing that openly within the family to ensure that everything has smooth passage when you go. (Bluntly surprises in wills are only for dramatists and fools)
Though I have written wills in both countries, I have only been an executor on english wills, so check me out before you conclude your arrangements.
I hope that is some steer for you.

Was not getting personal with anyone but then again after knowing Hungarians for more then 41 years, I should of known one would take things personally. Just the nature of the beast.

Just saying the rules don't take into account that sometimes a wife listens to her husband, lets him handle legal issues even though she may of also worked for something with little to show for it.
Goes both ways, it is not always the man who gets run over.

Been awhile then since you lived in HUngary, a real eye opener for my husband who was gone from there for more then 40 years. Nothing there changes much , same ol'. same ol'. Money talks and **** walks.
Every country has laws that are not far, just pointing out the fact that sometimes a law meant to do good can also do bad.
And yes, I am of eastern European decent and I know how some people in some families are, just reality. Have allot of Hungarians in my family through blood and marriage, people are the same all over the world, nothing new under the sun, Some are selfish and some think of others first, not too many but some...