Finding work, using Vietnamworks and how formal your CV needs to be?

Hi Karl,

Welcome to Vietnam and you may not enjoy what I am about to write.

From your writing I pulled the juice that you pitched;

good solid work
hold relevant, high level degrees
freelanced in the UK for the last couple of years and enjoyed enough success with my portfolio

1. You think be able to provide solid work is an advantage. Vietnamese companies, see you as expensive. Even before hearing you.
2. relevant, high level degrees. Again you are emphasising on quality. But sad to say, Vietnamese companies can live with inferior quality. The higher quality you are, the lesser you are in demand.
3. you enjoyed success in UK. But you are NOW in Vietnam, pitching your work in Vietnam, living in Vietnam. An employer will set to think you are outcast in UK thus, trying your luck else where. Thus, you are not as good as you claimed.

Designers and Teachers, sad to say, are occupations that are very much in supply in Vietnam and demand for lower than average quality is required.

Long story short, since you are still able to get out of this "quicksand", consider carefully - if you are willing to start with $300-$500/ month, you are most likely to land a job pretty fast.

If you are thinking of getting stirling pounds, you are barking up the wrong tree.

My 2 cents. Good Luck in your careers.

VietnamWorks is only reliable during peak hiring seasons.  Many times this is focused around teaching jobs.  If your other half is certified in TEFL and has had classroom experience, definitely go to job in the English department.  You may want to apply to any of the international schools that are available.  Sometimes they'll have an opening or they'll keep you on a waiting list if something pops up.  Many of these jobs you can apply online, but the ESL schools you can hand in a CV, cover letter, copy of passport and certification all in person.  Many of the schools' headquarters are located in D1, but the schools themselves are all over.  Currently I'm looking for a teaching position as a math teacher and it's come rather difficult, but many of the international schools said wait till August, so in the meantime it's teaching English for me.  For your significant other I recommend ILA or Wallstreet English.

My name is Addison btw and I'm also new to Vietnam.  I'm kind of in the same position as you.  My other half has a job and I'm on the lookout.  She's kind of my sugar mama right now. haha 

Hi Addison,

Would you mind divulging what is the remuneration she is getting?

Expat package etc.?

For working with many of the ESL schools, the expat will receive full health benefits, work visa, possible full time contract, possible reimbursement for a flight home once a year, and some other perks.  Depending on your experience your pay ranges from 1000USD-1300USD per month.  Many of these benefits can be seen on the "career" portion on their websites.  I've included the link to each of these sites:

http://wallstreetenglish.edu.vn/en/care … acher.htmlhttp://teachatilavietnam.com/jobs#splash

Hi,

Thanks so much for getting back to me much appreciated and myself and the other half found your tips very useful especially the insight about quality of relevant degrees and such. I'm more than happy to start at much lower pay scales here ($300-500 range) as we knew coming over that the sort of fees that I could command in London and the rest of the UK just wouldn't be plausible here and really I just love what I do, enjoy working and want to plug our living expenses costs. Will get back to my CV and make a few amendments before applying anywhere else! Thanks again for the help and I'll be sure to pass along anything I learn myself on here if things work out for us.

Hey Addison,

Nice to meet you, thanks for the reply! I'm partly TEFL qualified myself, did the classroom skills part but after seeing so much graphics work on sites like Vietnamworks thought I'd be better concerntrating on that, but maybe time to pull my finger out and finish my online sections! We came over with our eyes open about things like wages and what would be a realistic income but as mentioned, just got a bit concerned with the lack of response so far. I've worked for a large UK uni myself in their school of education, but again thought my design stuff was the best to focus on but think now that I need to do a bit of a review of my resume. Really not to precious about what I do, just want to keep busy and cut our living expenses down! Till then I guess we better keep our other halves happy mate! Thanks so much for the info, do keep in touch and let me know how you get on!

Hi Karl
You will be playing in a space where the competition will be very very stiff. Know what I mean as 'half of Europe' wants to come over to Vietnam ' to teach'. All the best.. Better chances if you could come over, stay a bit, show your white face and just impress by your verbal skills - when offered an interview..

Heya Cindy,
Thanks for your reply, yeah I know competition can be stiff, but I'm still hoping that diligence, hard work and honesty will pay off for me in the end. Wasn't expecting to drop onto a job immediately and spent the last two or three years planning to get over here so have given myself and the other half a bit of breathing room before the panic sets in I guess I'm quite lucky in a way as my skills allow me to be able to continue producing digital work from wherever I end up and sending in back to clients but would love something that's a little more stable... Eventually! I started from scratch being an illustrator back in the UK and found I was competing against hundreds of other applicants often enough anyway so at least I'm used to the hard slog! Thanks again for the advice though, appreciate all the info that I can get!

I'm just throwing out some other feedback that I've run across especially in regards to teaching jobs. 

One:  not me but let me point out that if anyone has arm tatoos and visible peircings that's going to be a negative, guaranteed.  If you can cover them up entirely and keep it that way then might be able to manage but you're going to sweat to death. 
Two: image, VN schools primarily want white male, white female, highest preference given to American native speakers below 45 years of age some schools 40.  Not saying they don't prize same for New Zealand, Aussie, England...just I've been told to my face, American English is highest preference, make sure you speak clearly and slowly even to your employer...that's going to win more attention from employers.  There are teaching opportunities for older persons, just not at most schools and it helps if you look on the younger side of your age rather than the other way.
Three: Experience, no doubt, teaching experience on CV w/ ESL Cert, degree and police clearance letter and you can find work in several areas of Vietnam.  If you have no previous experience ...like me.  Then be prepared to move where you can get some, like in the 'sticks' as we say, smaller towns that have need and have hard time keeping teachers.  Everyone wants to be in a nice place and this opens up jobs in the ...not as nice places.
Four: If you have all your docs, register and contact every school and recontact them every month until you get a job, there is lots and lots of churn in this job title. Every teacher I've met so far [except one that has taught English in VN for 15 years and has a permanent public school job] and had a chance to sit and talk has worked at three different schools in the last two years.   When someone quits the employer wants to put someone in fast, make sure they arealdy know you're available.

That's my experience so far.

To be honest now I've been here for about 10 months and been working for the last 9 of them in a design and animation role while my other half has been turning down teaching offers left and right because she has enough on her plate working 50 hour weeks, we have rapidly gained our own insights into how employment her works. While I am in a fairly specific and specialised role I still ended up with several offers in the end and as a result of holding out and plugging away, the best opportunities (and wages) obviously coming from western employers running businesses out here I've also topped my wage up with a little teaching here and there.

Although I do agree with much of what you've said our experiences do differ, while tattoos do make some issue to certain places, it is less of an problem in the schools and certainly amongst privately tutored individuals and there has been a great shift in the last few years to acceptability, I've encountered many tattooed teachers who are not asked to cover up especially if they only have one or two small pieces. In terms of being a white native speaker, this is unfortunately the case in nearly every school and any native, or fully competent English speaker who is not white can find real barriers looking for work because image of the schools tend to come over suitability or professionalism and I have to say that we have found that this bleeds over into experience also. Even bigger schools and employers like ALS, AMA, VLS, BYS and Wall Street English have a horrible habit of preferring a Caucasian with little to no experience over any other ethnicity with full teaching certs in many cases. The staff turn around is also such that we haven't really found schools giving much of a damn about experience as long as you can work to their schedule and have often encountered other teachers who are employed here (in HCMC) who have stepped off of the plane with nothing more than a degree and a pleasant smile, a few without even the degree and while many schools may want US style English taught, just as many do exist that want UK English or Business (I know, no such thing) English taught as a matter of assumed status and the hundred or so British/European teachers we've met can attest to this.

Ultimately what I would tell anyone fresh into the country something that I wish we were told and that is, just don't worry. There are a host of teaching positions available and although there can be some specific traits that will help or hinder the staff turn around and demand, here at least, is so great that if you get your head down and keep applying to places and remaining in contact as you suggested also then you WILL find work. It basically took my missus and I less than 3 weeks to get something decent and then cherry pick the better opportunities as they arose until you are happy. The gold standard however is more difficult and to bring in decent money working one school is very difficult and you may find that you have contracts with multiple places working piecemeal shifts.
Failing that put an well written ad up here offering your services and join a Facebook group, you'll pick up private students in no time if you are friendly and realistic with your fees.

karl, could you , would you offer some details of how you found your job?  I'm sure those looking for non-teaching jobs would appreciate some details of how you located jobs to apply for and how you applied.  You found your animator job in a month, how did you go about finding it?  Did you use only on-line sources and applied on-line or did you go face to face to firms and apply? etc?

To be honest there seemed to be a good number of positions in the field and I began back in the UK by registering and getting a profile up on VietnamWorks.com, this gave me a little false hope that there would be a ton stuff once I got here and I can't pretend that after the first month came to an end that I wasn't a little disheartened by the lack of interest.

I enquired on here, but in all honesty found the advice conflicting and a little defeatist, I was told that I shouldn't advertise my abilities and nor should I proudly include any of my better achievements as this would no doubt make possible employers either, suspicious of my intentions on why I had to leave the UK job market, think that I am making them up, or even intimidate them as they are looking for adequate not exemplary workers.
This made me feel uneasy as I have not spent years doing my best to be as good as I can in my field but I am also proud of the former work and achievements that I have accomplished.
I did the opposite and posted my own ad on here, being honest and upfront about my expectations and skill-set and found that within a few days I was getting replies, equally my partner put her own ad up about availability for tutoring individuals and had an even greater response. She has students now 8 months or so on that she still teaches and has remained good friends with all of them.

I did not have a tidal wave of responses but I did have enough that I could chose the best option that fit both myself and the employer and just as importantly found work somewhere that continued to bolster my portfolio.
There are also a good number of leads to be found on FB groups such as Expats in HCMC where there are a whole host of jobs advertised in all sorts of different fields from teaching to modelling, so it is definitely worth getting on there and asking about.

Hi Karl,
I have just read your recent post and found it interesting and informative especially as it spans several months and a few people have contributed with various ideas and opinions.
I teach English part time..I'm fairly old and more than fairly lazy...I work in two State schools and do a few private lessons.
I would encourage would be job seekers to take their time, throw out as many fishing lines as necessary, and,  as you say, use Internet networking to make contacts and why not friends.
My recent VN wife,  who is also a teacher, certainly helped to find me work, but through networking and word of mouth / contacts etc I am also making progress in adjacent work fields.
I particularly like this site for contacts, info, friendliness, free ads etc.
Best of luck to everybody

Hey Jon,

Thanks for the nice words and completely agree with your comments too.

HCMC (well, Vietnam as a whole) can obviously be a tough place to live for the uninitiated and I think that my other half being able to network and make friends not only meant that there was valuable human contact, life tips and encouragement provided via some of her students but to be completely honest having them like her and the methods that she uses to teach (she is much friendlier and nicer than me in general, I prefer growling my way through most problems!) as she got to know them meant that there was a large element of word-of-mouth and favours provided in finding later work and teaching roles for her.

At the beginning we kind of jumped straight into any job offers that came across our table, mainly due to the fear of failure and not knowing what was around the corner but as time passed it was actually really empowering, especially for my missus to be able to know her worth, dictate a fair wage and pick the jobs that she knew that she would excel at for both the students, her employer and her own confidence.

Many of the students that she took on at the beginning are no longer even part of a proper "tutorial" group now and several have become real friends that Chrissy (my my other half), got to the point at which she felt bad charging formal lesson fees as they would now spend most of their time chatting (and gossiping) but an informal arrangement kind of worked its way out where they take her out for a coffee or lunch to practice their English and often recommend her services as a result to friends and family that want to sharpen up their language skills also.
In all its been a very nice way in a sometimes tough environment to get to know the people, the city and the way everything tends to work here but it did take the better part of half a year for us to find that groove.

Like you said, cast your lines far and wide, and I guess my advice would be not to panic. There is work and employment out there, the trick is being committed, knowing your own limitations and wants and taking your time with the stuff that is right for you.

Good luck to all!

Thanks Karl/Chrissy for sharing.  It's refreshing and encouraging to read positive posts and hear successful stories.

Hey,
Not a problem and very kind of you to say. I think that a large part of the problem can be (or at least was for us) the lack of relevant information that is out there from people that have done something similar and the ability to keep it up to date due to the ever changing systems and bureaucracy that places like Vietnam do tend to suffer from.

The Facebook pages and groups have been very useful but I have to say that I do find the attitudes from many folk that are established on them as often both condescending and mean spirited at points, and it staggers me that they regularly spend inches of text condemning enquiries that might repeat a question they find trivial, rather than either ignoring it or just giving somebody a simple and helpful answer!  The way stuff changes here in regards to visa requirements, banking and work issues changes so often that info is rarely correct for very long anyway and despite feeling like I'm a bit more of a (albeit naive compared to many) seasoned Saigoneer when it comes to some of this stuff right now I now that my knowledge will probable be irrelevant the week after I leave Vietnam!

Anyhoo, if anything on here has either encouraged folk or been of any small use to others then that is awesome and I'm always happy to share anything that I can in regards to how things work here if I can shed any light on them for others!

Congratulations, I enjoyed your 10 month success story. In Expat.com we usually just see the "10 questions before I come" story and the "after I came disaster" story. And this was the best part for me - it shows how it is possible to integrate into a very different world for westerners. It is about sharing:

karl corney wrote:

Many of the students that she took on at the beginning are no longer even part of a proper tutorial group now and several have become real friends that Chrissy (my my other half), got to the point at which she felt bad charging formal lesson fees as they would now spend most of their time chatting (and gossiping) but an informal arrangement kind of worked its way out where they take her out for a coffee or lunch to practice their English and often recommend her services

Now I have 2 questions about tech work.

I came here from California in March. I am a web developer, I've mostly been enjoying myself while continuing to work part-time on a web application for equity.  Lately I've been thinking about contracting or project work.  I figured I would advertise in upwork or post in California craigslists.  I don't mind taking a discount in rates compared to western rates due to the cost of living here. But it sounds like you found work from foreign companies who have offices here.

- Are positions here found just by word of mouth, advertised on Vietnamworks, or?

- Did you find it advantageous to employers that you speak native English, or that you are educated and from a western country?
thx! -phil

Hey Phil, nice to meet you...

We've certainly had our ups and downs but hey, that's life and despite the fact that I'm not sure that either of us would want to settle permanently in VN we can see why it certainly appeals to many, just as we notice how the fantasy ideal of coming over to pursue the easy life comes as a shock to others when they have the rude awakening that here like anywhere else, if you want to be well considered and established, takes hard work and commitment.

Despite all of this, Vietnam is somewhat in our blood now and I am sure that we will always have strong connections with the place via the friends made and the life that we have led while here.

To answer your questions as well as I can;
1.) I think that it is all of the above, you really can't sit on your laurels in this place and despite both of us having the occasional week where we were getting a number of responses to both out teaching and graphic resumes respectively, often what felt like cast iron leads evaporated into thin air and numbers no longer worked for call backs. Chrissy would have students chomping at the bit to meet her for a chat about future lessons who would then never materialise and I would have guys saying that the were impressed enough to give me a start date, only to never hear hide nor hair of them again.
Word of mouth is definitely important here, but you kind of need a couple of breaks first to get that recognition, I've even produced work for some of Chrissy's students and that income then began to feed itself and I think locals trust the word of someone they know over any kind of resume or impersonal recommendation. Ultimately, as others have said on this thread earlier, cast your lines far and wide and constantly update the information that you have if you are beginning to get accepted.

2.) This is a little bit of an odd one, it is certainly handy to be a native speaker when it comes to networking with expat guys who are over here running their own businesses but really that is where the usefulness ends. The majority of other staff will all speak little or no English, so many tasks, especially supervisory can be difficult without someone who can translate, and ultimately I am sure that my use would be greater if I could effectively communicate without this barrier.
What is useful and I am sure does help though is that by proxy you will no doubt share Western workethics, things are done differently here, right or wrong and the staff have their own manner of completing jobs and working, and I think that it is only natural that a director, client or manager will respond better to an employee who obviously shares the way in which they tend to prefer working, such as punctual time keeping/lateness and in my personal experience the ability to work unsupervised and to process complicated instructions, purely as it can also be easier for them to communicate their ideas without the need for a middle man who will in turn translate again to other employees and I guess it just saves valuable time to tell you in detail. Just a shame that my own Vietnamese skills are so poor so that I can't pass this on when needed myself!

Really, I have had to be in a position in which my work speaks for itself and I have been lucky to find work in which the companies are looking for strong original work and that can be produced quickly. However, as a side note I would actually include that it can by quite lonely being the only English speaker somewhere if you are used to a little more social interaction during your working day, I love to chat so I guess my boss is lucky that I have little else to do but keep my head down and work these days!

Hope that helps Phil?!

Thanks for the detailed reply, Karl. Sounds difficult. Yeah I think I'll go ahead at stay with remote work over the internet for now, or build my own thing which is what I really want to to. Working this way for a couple years I am used to the isolation, need to go to coworking spaces more often.