New ESL job is torture, thinking about splitting in the night

Dont let the negative thoughts get to you, your experiences are the same for most people.
Schools have badly mixed classes on ability, leavimg you stuck between teaching the ones who aee willljng to learn amd those that show no interest.

If you are teching in public schools it will be woese, lack of funding and poor textbooks thar are boring to say the least

Best places to work are the international schools that take place outside normal school hours.

I served just over a week for Compass, amd they were terrilble, much like you are going through now, a little digging and it turns out most of their website was a pack of lies, here people just see western names and think it mudt be good

Did you apply for this job whilst in another country?

Jlgarbutt wrote:

Dont let the negative thoughts get to you, your experiences are the same for most people.
Schools have badly mixed classes on ability, leavimg you stuck between teaching the ones who aee willljng to learn amd those that show no interest.

If you are teching in public schools it will be woese, lack of funding and poor textbooks thar are boring to say the least

Best places to work are the international schools that take place outside normal school hours.

Yes, it's a language center so I teach evenings.  Two of the classes I have are probably salvageable, the other I haven't even seen yet, but was told it's another level 1 class packed with 20 students.  10 would be hard enough to manage, and I'm not that good at managing young children to begin with, let alone as a new teacher still trying to figure out the routine and the names.

I've taught at many other schools, and most of them had good textbooks that you could rely on.  At this school the textbooks are not very useful, and they expect teachers to spend hours each day building new lesson materials.  It's a waste of time. 

colinoscapee wrote:

Did you apply for this job whilst in another country?

Yes, I applied from overseas.  Though I agreed to the terms through e-mail, I haven't actually signed any official contract yet.  At this point, if they presented me a contract, I would refuse to sign it.

Maybe I'm just spoiled, but the teaching job I had last year was a piece of cake compared to this.

telescopicPuma wrote:

Jlgarbutt wrote:

Dont let the negative thoughts get to you, your experiences are the same for most people.
Schools have badly mixed classes on ability, leavimg you stuck between teaching the ones who aee willljng to learn amd those that show no interest.

If you are teching in public schools it will be woese, lack of funding and poor textbooks thar are boring to say the least

Best places to work are the international schools that take place outside normal school hours.

Yes, it's a language center so I teach evenings.  Two of the classes I have are probably salvageable, the other I haven't even seen yet, but was told it's another level 1 class packed with 20 students.  10 would be hard enough to manage, and I'm not that good at managing young children to begin with, let alone as a new teacher still trying to figure out the routine and the names.

I've taught at many other schools, and most of them had good textbooks that you could rely on.  At this school the textbooks are not very useful, and they expect teachers to spend hours each day building new lesson materials.  It's a waste of time. 

colinoscapee wrote:

Did you apply for this job whilst in another country?

Yes, I applied from overseas.  Though I agreed to the terms through e-mail, I haven't actually signed any official contract yet.  At this point, if they presented me a contract, I would refuse to sign it.

Maybe I'm just spoiled, but the teaching job I had last year was a piece of cake compared to this.

This is a common problem and it happens all the time. I would suggest leaving the school, the area and find something else.

I can read are looking for staff
Also have a look on vietnam teaching jobs website

colinoscapee wrote:

This is a common problem and it happens all the time. I would suggest leaving the school, the area and find something else.

My first instinct is to just stay for the 90 days on my business visa and then leave VN all together.  I don't know if the DN visa can be transferred to another school or extended, but I think it would be problematic.  For one thing, it doesn't look good to prospective employers to jump ship like that.  For another, it's very likely I'll end up in an even worse situation.

telescopicPuma wrote:

colinoscapee wrote:

This is a common problem and it happens all the time. I would suggest leaving the school, the area and find something else.

My first instinct is to just stay for the 90 days on my business visa and then leave VN all together.  I don't know if the DN visa can be transferred to another school or extended, but I think it would be problematic.  For one thing, it doesn't look good to prospective employers to jump ship like that.  For another, it's very likely I'll end up in an even worse situation.

If you change job and new employer help to support your working permit then it shouldn't be a problem.

Have a search round of alternative education centres, then take it from there.  Better to be prepare rather than just quit without a back up plan on place.

Puma:
I have yet to start teaching (still in quarantine), but from what you say it seems like the Wild West out there with language schools. Indeed in my day we called them cowboy schools. I would look for a school with better support (an assistant in the classroom, staff who'll help you, smaller class sizes, etc.). You put in a lot of effort to come here with the visa process, the trip, and the quarantine.
I would inquire at other schools. The good ones must be aware of the nightmare schools out there. Ask other expat teachers. Most schools should be desperate for foreign teachers because it seems only a few are able and/or willing to sponsor a teacher to come in with the current covid restrictions. And most should be thrilled that any teacher already in the country were applying.

Ford Prefect wrote:

Puma:
I have yet to start teaching (still in quarantine), but from what you say it seems like the Wild West out there with language schools. Indeed in my day we called them cowboy schools. I would look for a school with better support (an assistant in the classroom, staff who'll help you, smaller class sizes, etc.). You put in a lot of effort to come here with the visa process, the trip, and the quarantine.
I would inquire at other schools. The good ones must be aware of the nightmare schools out there. Ask other expat teachers. Most schools should be desperate for foreign teachers because it seems only a few are able and/or willing to sponsor a teacher to come in with the current covid restrictions. And most should be thrilled that any teacher already in the country were applying.

I'm actually working for one of the largest language centers in Vietnam, and most people seem to say it's alright, though I see a few grumbles. 

To be honest, I think I just got unlucky.  The center I was assigned to is in the midst of a massive expansion, so management has given me two of the newest classes and packed them full of very weak students who are almost impossible to manage.

At this point, I'd just like to quit and go back to teaching online.  Though the pay was nominally 30% lower, I was actually making more since it was tax free (unreported income) and I only had to spend 5-15 minutes preparing for each class.  It was SOOOOO much easier.

Ford Prefect wrote:

Puma:
I have yet to start teaching (still in quarantine), but from what you say it seems like the Wild West out there with language schools. Indeed in my day we called them cowboy schools. I would look for a school with better support (an assistant in the classroom, staff who'll help you, smaller class sizes, etc.). You put in a lot of effort to come here with the visa process, the trip, and the quarantine.
I would inquire at other schools. The good ones must be aware of the nightmare schools out there. Ask other expat teachers. Most schools should be desperate for foreign teachers because it seems only a few are able and/or willing to sponsor a teacher to come in with the current covid restrictions. And most should be thrilled that any teacher already in the country were applying.

From experience that classroom assistant just sit and play on phone most of time
I would avoid a schhol and look for a language centre

There are lots of schools with plenty of unmanageable classes, often because, to save money, schools don't assign a TA, sometimes because the TA just sits there playing with their smartphones. How can a non Vietnamese speaking teacher manage twenty young kids, the more boys in the class the worse. Give them an ultimatum :Assign efficient TAS to the difficult classes, or you will be forced to quit. You came here to teach, not to be a substitute parent for rowdy kids whose parents have failed to bring them up in the right way.

thecyclist wrote:

There are lots of schools with plenty of unmanageable classes, often because, to save money, schools don't assign a TA, sometimes because the TA just sits there playing with their smartphones. How can a non Vietnamese speaking teacher manage twenty young kids, the more boys in the class the worse. Give them an ultimatum :Assign efficient TAS to the difficult classes, or you will be forced to quit. You came here to teach, not to be a substitute parent for rowdy kids whose parents have failed to bring them up in the right way.

Doesnt help some of the material is as boring as hell
Would often walk in and have kids just say play game

My experience is the same as yours and I agree with the other posters on here.

If you haven't done it already, I would recommend searching for a different teaching job and if it works out for you, leave this teaching position to save your sanity even if the pay is lower. There are so many schools especially in the big cities so it shouldn't be too hard to get another job.

Hang in there my friend. Once you are over this hurdle, you may actually enjoy being in Vietnam and want to stay longer. Good luck.

Just curious why most of you guys choose to teach english, is it a means to an end or is it just a vehicle towards building a different career?

dionstravels wrote:

Just curious why most of you guys choose to teach english, is it a means to an end or is it just a vehicle towards building a different career?

For most its the easiest job to get, anything else regardless or experienxe is tough going. Other jobs you might be qualified for are normally taken by locals who are not best suited to the role, bht have either bribed their way in or know somekne at the company.

Local employers are brutal also, paying locals lower salary, no providing labor contracts if at all.

I recently attended an interview with the CEO that didn't even know i was coming, HR just said come along... CEO looked at my CV for the first time during the i terview and said not suitable.

By contrast a shortage of teachers means anyone with a basic grasp of english can get a job...the real losers being students who get taught badly... ,most lessons kids just want to play games

Hi
Do you have a degree? If so then, with the lack of professional teachers here at the moment ,you would easily get a job with a decent centre like VUS, who have offices all over the place. Stay well away from APAX and the like. IU have been here for over 6 years now and, sure in the schools and dodgy language centres, there are severe problems, but, on balance, its an awesome place to live so its worth it!

ouch on the trash ceo and trash recruiter, I think starting your own business and hiring local talent is a better deal, don't have to deal with incompetent companies but definitely not everyones cup of tea. the other route is trying to either find western companies that are here or working remote gigs.

thecyclist wrote:

...the TA just sits there playing with their smartphones. How can a non Vietnamese speaking teacher manage twenty young kids, the more boys in the class the worse...

I have very little experience, never having been a teacher here (I was only officially paid as a "Teacher's Assistant" in Tam Kỳ, Quảng Nam for 1 month).

However I did encounter the same attention problems with most of the boys in the classroom.

I just wonder: is there are any single-sex schools in Vietnam?

I taught here for years at a number of different schools, although not recently.  Typically 20ish students was normal.  Sometimes smaller, but 20 is around the high end for private language centers. 

One of the best things you can do if you are having these issues, is ask a few other teachers that have been there a while if you can observe one of their classes. 

If you are new to the classroom, or even just a Vietnamese classroom, a lot will come with time and experience.  If you teach for a few years, you'll probably be able to cover someone else's class with 5 minutes notice regardless of the textbook quality. 

If you don't like a disruptive class, there are ways to get them to follow some rules.

I'll share a method that I've used for classroom management.  I go over my class rules every class, written on the board, beginning with our first meeting.  If they break a rule the entire class loses break time, noted on the board, by the minute.  They typically get a 5 second countdown before a minute comes off, unless they do something over the top.  Eventually they start policing each other, you don't have to say shush because they say shush.  When I get a student where that doesn't work, I'll put their name on the board and take break time from them individually.  They come up and sit next to me at break time while I do my paperwork.   I modify it by age.  Kindy wouldn't be written rules, just happy and sad faces with basic stuff like sit in your chair, with explanation from the TA in Vietnamese.

Some schools have rewards plans.  If your school has a rewards program, you could give students rewards vouchers for good work, exemplary behavior, and for doing homework properly, regardless of class level.  Some teachers give out candies. 

As far as student ratios, you can't be sure in advance how things will go in a new class.  Some of the girls act up more than the boys.  Some students are top of the class one year and come back to a new class a year later too cool for school.  As a general rule, small classes are typically easier, but not always.

Once you've been at a school a while and established a good reputation, you might have leeway to ask for specific classes, repeat classes you enjoyed, small classes, kindy classes, or advanced gifted classes.  The difference in classes, age groups, and levels can be night and day.  The difference between one TA and another can be big.  If you find a TA you work well with you might request to get scheduled together in the future more often. 

With regard to English names, maybe it's their first English class with a foreign teacher and they've never had to choose a name.  Maybe they aren't familiar with English names any more than you are with Vietnamese names.  Assign them homework to think about and choose an English name.  When they come back, play a game where they toss a ball around and say their name, or put them on teams where they pass toys around a circle and say their names while music plays, and when you pause the music the team of the students holding the toy gets points.  Then have them say the name of the person before them, and so on.

mtgmike wrote:

I taught here for years at a number of different schools...

"Here" being the United States?

You've never been to Việt Nam, correct?

Mtgmike:  These are just a few of my general observations, not necessarily in or not in agreement. 

My language center used TA's with the very young but not with middle and high school aged children.  To me that is better.  With older students, the TA just gets in the way.  We also had TA's in the public schools.  I taught almost entirely in Middle School level.  I had a few good TA's but I was just as happy when no TA was available.

My rule that I think improves discipline is that you don't have to love the children, you don't even have to like them, but you do have to respect them as human beings.  I am not sure how but children can sense this immediately.  I'm not saying that it applies to you but just pointing it out as my rule of thumb.  I might add that this seems just as important now that I am dealing with some of the disadvantaged ethnic groups of Oceania.

In a related vein, I never gave my students English names.  A few had been assigned them previously, and wanted to use them, but I never assigned new ones.  I also suspect that some of those that wanted to keep their English names did so because they found them comical.  I feel that, even for children, a name is a key part of their identity.  To remember their names I had each one write theirs on the whiteboard during the first class and I took a photo.  Of course when people emigrate to English speaking countries, they may need to consider changing from names that are accidental homonyms like Bich or Phuc, but that is another situation.  When we are in Vietnam, we should learn the Vietnamese names.

Of course every school and every teacher is different.  These are just the ramblings of another old man. 

Teaching English as a Foreign language is a global industry estimated to have a market value of 200 billion US dollars. I assume this includes classes, testing (IELTS, TOEIC, TOEFL, etc.) and teacher certification.

The sheer number of people involved in this market is simply astounding! Demand is huge, and more and more schools are opening up in order to get a piece of this lucrative pie.

Trivial details such as the quality of materials, classrooms and teachers are almost completely irrelevant when compared to the profits that can be gained. Much more important are the student registration numbers and payments. Getting the payment up front is the key, and after that, nothing else really matters. Therefore, those working in the Marketing Department are far more necessary than the teachers to the daily operations of any school.

Teachers may complain or even quit, but look in the desk drawer of the HR dept. and see the huge stack of CVS/resumes (literally hundreds). Schools don't worry; they can always get more teachers. In fact, massive turnover is quite beneficial as they'll be rid of pesky teachers who want higher rates of pay or more fringe benefits.

Nearly everyone in the world wants to speak English! Open your English school today and begin your journey on the path to easy success! 

OceanBeach92107 wrote:

mtgmike wrote:

I taught here for years at a number of different schools...

"Here" being the United States?

You've never been to Việt Nam, correct?

Here being in Vietnam.  I'm from the United States.  I've been in Vietnam a bit over 8 years now, and my wife is Vietnamese.  Originally I came to Vietnam to work as a teacher.

THIGV wrote:

Mtgmike:  These are just a few of my general observations, not necessarily in or not in agreement. 

My language center used TA's with the very young but not with middle and high school aged children.  To me that is better.  With older students, the TA just gets in the way.  We also had TA's in the public schools.  I taught almost entirely in Middle School level.  I had a few good TA's but I was just as happy when no TA was available.

My rule that I think improves discipline is that you don't have to love the children, you don't even have to like them, but you do have to respect them as human beings.  I am not sure how but children can sense this immediately.  I'm not saying that it applies to you but just pointing it out as my rule of thumb.  I might add that this seems just as important now that I am dealing with some of the disadvantaged ethnic groups of Oceania.

In a related vein, I never gave my students English names.  A few had been assigned them previously, and wanted to use them, but I never assigned new ones.  I also suspect that some of those that wanted to keep their English names did so because they found them comical.  I feel that, even for children, a name is a key part of their identity.  To remember their names I had each one write theirs on the whiteboard during the first class and I took a photo.  Of course when people emigrate to English speaking countries, they may need to consider changing from names that are accidental homonyms like Bich or Phuc, but that is another situation.  When we are in Vietnam, we should learn the Vietnamese names.

Of course every school and every teacher is different.  These are just the ramblings of another old man. 

I've met teachers that like working with TAs and teachers that don't like it.  Personally, I very much enjoy working with good TAs.  I've only worked with one TA that was overtly disruptive and intrusive to the point it was a problem, it was quite odd and extreme actually, but the school put a new TA with me after a couple weeks.  If I get a really good TA I sometimes ask the scheduler if we can work together again in future courses. 

The language centers I worked for did not have TAs for teens about 13-17 years old either.  8-12 had one TA.  Kindies were usually 5-7 year olds and had 2 TAs.  I came to prefer a good mix of kindy classes and 8-12 classes as far as the dynamics fit best with my teaching style.  I've worked with teachers that much prefer to teach the teens and advanced classes, it seems to balance out at most places. 

My wife is Vietnamese and I've been living in Vietnam for 8 years, so in day to day life I'm using Vietnamese names, but not so much in the classroom.  Some schools have strict policies about immersive classrooms.  I follow whatever policy the school has in place.  I've found my students seem to have fun picking out a name for themselves, but aside from kindy most times they already have an English name by the time they get to my class.  They aren't stuck with it for life either, if they ask to change it I change it.  I had a teen that was Batman for years and then decided he'd outgrown that.

mtgmike wrote:

OceanBeach92107 wrote:

mtgmike wrote:

I taught here for years at a number of different schools...

"Here" being the United States?

You've never been to Việt Nam, correct?

Here being in Vietnam.  I'm from the United States.  I've been in Vietnam a bit over 8 years now, and my wife is Vietnamese.  Originally I came to Vietnam to work as a teacher.

Thanks.

I was confusing you with a different poster.

THIGV wrote:

...My rule that I think improves discipline is that you don't have to love the children, you don't even have to like them, but you do have to respect them as human beings.  I am not sure how but children can sense this immediately.  I'm not saying that it applies to you but just pointing it out as my rule of thumb.  I might add that this seems just as important now that I am dealing with some of the disadvantaged ethnic groups of Oceania.

In a related vein, I never gave my students English names.  A few had been assigned them previously, and wanted to use them, but I never assigned new ones.  I also suspect that some of those that wanted to keep their English names did so because they found them comical.  I feel that, even for children, a name is a key part of their identity.  To remember their names I had each one write theirs on the whiteboard during the first class and I took a photo.  Of course when people emigrate to English speaking countries, they may need to consider changing from names that are accidental homonyms like Bich or Phuc, but that is another situation.  When we are in Vietnam, we should learn the Vietnamese names...

I see where you're going with this and I'm picking up on your good intentions.

I grew up in San Diego where it's essentially mandatory to learn conversational Spanish, due to the close proximity to Mexico.

In every Spanish class I ever took, we were required to take on a Spanish/Mexican name (not all names used by Spanish-speaking people are inherently Spanish with European origins).

As much as possible, the teacher would refer to us by our Spanish names and my classmates and I were to address each other by our Spanish names in conversation.

I can virtually guarantee that none of us ever had any sense of being disrespected by not using our English names in those classrooms.

I think most of us understood after a while that with each new lesson we were learning a vocabulary of personal names and surnames and how to pronounce them.

If Vietnamese students are truly going to learn conversational English that they can utilize within the worldwide English-speaking community, then they should be gradually learning a significant amount of common English personal names and surnames.

Because if a name truly is a key part of an identity, then Vietnamese children should be encouraged to respect English-speaking foreigners enough to learn how to address them in conversation.

Obviously there's a challenge there in getting them to understand the importance of that.

A little exercise I did as a TA with my students in Tam Kỳ was to greet a student and ask their name.

After they replied, I would then ask them to say hello to another student and ask that student's name (idea copied from my own 4th grade Spanish teacher and vocalizing exercises in music classes).

Eventually everyone participated by greeting someone, asking for a name and answering someone.

I also made sure that at least one time every class I used their Vietnamese name when either greeting them coming into class or when saying goodbye to them afterwards.

I sincerely hope that was sufficient in giving them personal acknowledgement.

THIGV wrote:

Mtgmike: 

The language centers I worked for did not have TAs for teens about 13-17 years old either.  8-12 had one TA.  Kindies were usually 5-7 year olds and had 2 TAs.  I came to prefer a good mix of kindy classes and 8-12 classes as far as the dynamics fit best with my teaching style.  I've worked with teachers that much prefer to teach the teens and advanced classes, it seems to balance out at most places.

I have taught in public schools, and privately. Older teenagers, 35 - 45 students aged 15 - 17 in a tier 3 High School were the hardest gig I've had, I did it for a year and that was plenty.

The TA was incompetent or absent half the time, most of the children didn't have *any* English and just slept across their desks through the lesson. It wasn't the 'done thing' to punish them - the school started at 6:30 am and you just knew that many of them had been up all the night before.

I now teach a few hours a week to primary kids, years 1 - 5.  There are up to 48 in a classroom, but I have one assistant teacher and one TA, and it works a lot better mainly because the kids haven't learned to 'talk back' yet.

Vaughan12 wrote:

I have taught in public schools, and privately. Older teenagers, 35 - 45 students aged 15 - 17 in a tier 3 High School were the hardest gig I've had, I did it for a year and that was plenty.

The TA was incompetent or absent half the time, most of the children didn't have *any* English and just slept across their desks through the lesson. It wasn't the 'done thing' to punish them - the school started at 6:30 am and you just knew that many of them had been up all the night before.

I now teach a few hours a week to primary kids, years 1 - 5.  There are up to 48 in a classroom, but I have one assistant teacher and one TA, and it works a lot better mainly because the kids haven't learned to 'talk back' yet.

The key phrase here may be "tier 3"  I was told the officials will not tell you the rankings but parents and students clearly know how the schools stack up.  I taught happily at what was reputedly the second best middle school in my district but did occasional semester long stints at what was likely the 3rd tier high school.  (I did have one student transfer to the reputedly "best" middle school but happily, her parents retained me as a private tutor.) Students were exactly as described and many had no prior experience with English and were only taking it because the school had recently established one year as a graduation requirement.  One student told me that they didn't have to pass it, they just had to attend.  What I settled into was a tacit understanding that as long as those who didn't want to learn sat quietly in the back, I would teach to the 8 to 10 in front who wanted to learn.

99% of kids I've dealt with from the "system" are like little parrots, that's the way teachers do it, just give them the curriculum, and don't stress, the kids that are keen, encourage them and let the others go. If you dump ur contract, try tutoring, the parents are paying high price so expect results. That's when the child wears the wroth of the parent. Best wishes. Those kids that try are the 1's that lift you up