to pda or not to pda? what is the reason

You mean public display of affection?  I cant think that you mean the pda items.

Well, Though the French is in here for about 100 years, Chinese Confucianism is present for at least one thousand year, and unprovable 2000 years. The prudish tendencies to go with that system of thinkings exist from China to Japan to Vietnam. it goes against the robust and hotblooded natures of tropical people, but there you have it.

From idioms, folklore, and folksongs, ancient Viet is quite... healthy in that regard. PDA is nothing where the disciples of Confucianism held little sway.

considering all the other things the Viet's have adopted from the French, I'm surprised they haven't let this (pda avoidance) go

Vietnamese are more discrete in their displays of affection.

Check out hand locations when they ride on motorcycles; also the gap between the back of the driver and the chest of the passenger.

Vietnamese are not 'touchy-feely' with strangers; if you think you got lucky and some female is draping herself around you, see what is being stolen! Some male motorcyclists even run over your foot, then put their arm around your shoulder as they check for your wallet.

There are some dimly lit cafes in Binh Thanh where things get hot and heavy.

I want to make clear a bit. French just effected the South. Russian effected the north. (It doesn't mean whole south or north are effected). There is a song: 1000 dominated by chinese, 100 years governed by Western, 30 years for revolution..The fact is that most of educated people were effected because they inherited a 100% French education moved to abroad in 1975. One part of my family solved everything and moved to America while the other part moved to France or canada. You can imagine that 1975 is huge immigration. Those educated class display affection like French exactly as you told above.

I can tell you.. not many real Saigon people still living in HcM. As I read in history book, At that time 1/3 high/average class in HcM are not from HcM. They were from Tiền Giang

Mhmmm~ Russian influences are not that many, even with all the sponsored educated-then-returnees. They have too short a time with us. Counting by years, it's 50~ compared to 100-200 of French.

The French influences in the north are subtle and not in your face. Most of the churches on the North were designed by French and French-educated local architects. All of our old villas are French Colonial style, though it's covered by advertisement boards and newly expanded sections. Our French speakers are quite numerous, behind English but for sure compete with Chinese, and we are still counted as a nation used French. The Christian orders and missions in Vietnam are France-influence, not USA-influence.

As for local native of the big cities, well, urbanization and migration is an ongoing process. With the pop explosion of big cities, the ratio of long time local natives is of course lower than before. Old Hanoians are not that numerous, trust me.

Im happy I asked this question, as as foriegner, there are many things I need and want to learn, I have noticed this riding the bike position and also some times the looks from boy to girl man to wife. I have a friend (VN) who i like very much, the challenge is understanding ( in computing terms) her os, operating system all the constraints placed on VN people by thier cultural heritage things are so different in the west (and having spoken to students in 23/9) not prefered os (cultural) choices. In using the word "constraints" please don't see it as a bad opinion, but an acknowledgement. what makes my situation complex is that my friend works with westerners on a daily basis.

mark stutley wrote:

the challenge is understanding ( in computing terms)

computer terms?You met her online?
I am sorry I cant guess what you mean that you cant understand her and how about her work has any relation with PDA? You wonder when she usually contacts with westerners, she should have acted like them?

Given the relatively short period that the French were in Vietnam, their impact was substantial. Much of this lies in the advanced position that France then held in the developed world, even being far ahead of the Americans in medicine. Cochinchina had been a colony since 1864. But the French had only landed there in 1859, and spent much of that time bottled up in Saigon. In 1945 there were only 20,000 European French, civil and military, in all Cochinchina. Annam (Trung Ky) was taken over as a protectorate in 1884. There, French rule was more indirect, and there were only 5,000 European French in Central Vietnam in 1945. Tonkin (Bac Ky), which had been ruled as part of Annam, was detached in 1886 and administered as a protectorate outside the Red River Delta, and as a colony within. In 1945 there were an estimated 20,000 European French in Tonkin. (Source: Philippe Devillers, "Indochine: Un Nom Magique, Un Monde Multiple", Historia magazine, Hors Serie #24)

To put that in perspective, that was 45,000 French civilians and military within a population of 20.5 million, of whom 85% were ethnic Kinh, in all of Vietnam. (In 1939, 75% of the French Armed Forces in Vietnam were "Indochinese".)

As for education: "The educational reforms of Jules Ferry within France triggered the question of what education was needed n the colonies. In 1879, the French started in Cochinchina, since Annam, which then included Tonkin, remained in the old Confucian education model of six or so pupils taught in the scholars home. The model they adopted was a Franco-Indigenous one which took the French school subjects as its basis. As the model developed, it was spread into the Protectorates. Well known products of this system included Truong Vinh Ky, Paulus Cua, Nguyen Van Vinh (founder of the Indochinese Review / Dong Duong Tap Chi), Pham Huy Ton, Pham Quynh, and Tran Trong Kim. This Franco-Indigenous system did not pretend to teach the students in French. Rather the vernacular language was used in many subjects, with French also being taught." (My notes from Brocheux and Hemery's "Indochina: An Ambiguous Colonization: 1858-1954")

Given the numbers, history, and relationships, it's easy to see why the impact of French colonization was stronger in the South than in the Center and North, and why it tended to be from the top down, and city and large town oriented, leaving the Confucian beliefs and practices of the 85%, the vast majority of whom lived in the countryside, largely untouched.

mark stutley wrote:

This one is for those who are VN or have a close relationship with a VN person, Given the amount of time the French were in VN and their romantic nature, why are PDA's discouraged in VN? even frowned upon and when did this start?

PDA. Where on Earth did you you find such an asinine acronym?

Isn't it just easier to say 'affection in public' or 'romantic behaviour in public'?
I'm not Vietnamese or French and I disapprove of couples showing affection in public.
Who wants to see sweethearts cuddling on the street?
Who enjoys watching couples kissing at a coffee shop?
Is this a voyeurs delight?


And if it's acceptable in your eyes,is there a limit?
You've seen boys smooching in the park and that's ok with you?
How's your feeling about  the masculine lady and her feminine 'friend',arm in arm?

jimbream wrote:

PDA. Where on Earth did you you find such an asinine acronym?

PDA is a acceptable acronym for public display of affection.  Nothing wrong with using it, although the OP probably should have defined it beforehand, for those who aren't familiar with it.

DanFromSF wrote:

jimbream wrote:

PDA. Where on Earth did you you find such an asinine acronym?

PDA is a acceptable acronym for public display of affection.  Nothing wrong with using it, although the OP probably should have defined it beforehand, for those who aren't familiar with it.

Sure DanfromSF.
This may be a socially approved acronym for usage in western countries.
However,due to the very high numbers of Vietnamese on this forum,I felt the OP ought to be more blatant in his original question. There are about at my guess,20%  expatriates living in Vietnam on this forum. So that needs to be kept in mind when posting questions that relate to the

jimbream wrote:

Isn't it just easier to say 'affection in public' or 'romantic behaviour in public'?
I'm not Vietnamese or French and I disapprove of couples showing affection in public.
Who wants to see sweethearts cuddling on the street?
Who enjoys watching couples kissing at a coffee shop?
Is this a voyeurs delight?

+1

In all my living abroad, including France, I don't remember seeing much "PDA" in any one country. Even in the U.S. you really don't see it that often.

If the OP is planning on having a serious relationship with a Viet woman, his time will be better spent understand the interfamily workings than something as mundane as public displays of affection. The real confusion will come a few years after marriage. By this time the OP will have no interest in understanding the do's and don'ts of PDA. 

That is a nice historical article and I thank Mr Lirelou for giving it, in particular the hard numbers of French around here, and the revelant documents.

On the other hand, I will point out that the effect of subtle French influence.
Hanoi is a particular case. The ancient Hanoi structures were mostly pull down to rebuild during a Hanoi reconstruction one century before, which is why the ancient structures are so few around here. The new ones got built is heavily influenced by French style architect school. In particular, all the churches in the north was built by french padres, or local padre as architect but trained in French style.

And even earlier than French colonization/domination period, the French has their influence in Vietnam. The founding king of Nguyen dynasty sent his heir apparent to France in exchange for much helps in conquering the whole nation, though later on he checked their spreading influence. The hostage thing is one of reason the popular opinion in the north against the founding King: he used foreign resource.

lirelou wrote:

Given the relatively short period that the French were in Vietnam, their impact was substantial. Much of this lies in the advanced position that France then held in the developed world, even being far ahead of the Americans in medicine. Cochinchina had been a colony since 1864. But the French had only landed there in 1859, and spent much of that time bottled up in Saigon. In 1945 there were only 20,000 European French, civil and military, in all Cochinchina. Annam (Trung Ky) was taken over as a protectorate in 1884. There, French rule was more indirect, and there were only 5,000 European French in Central Vietnam in 1945. Tonkin (Bac Ky), which had been ruled as part of Annam, was detached in 1886 and administered as a protectorate outside the Red River Delta, and as a colony within. In 1945 there were an estimated 20,000 European French in Tonkin. (Source: Philippe Devillers, "Indochine: Un Nom Magique, Un Monde Multiple", Historia magazine, Hors Serie #24)

To put that in perspective, that was 45,000 French civilians and military within a population of 20.5 million, of whom 85% were ethnic Kinh, in all of Vietnam. (In 1939, 75% of the French Armed Forces in Vietnam were "Indochinese".)

As for education: "The educational reforms of Jules Ferry within France triggered the question of what education was needed n the colonies. In 1879, the French started in Cochinchina, since Annam, which then included Tonkin, remained in the old Confucian education model of six or so pupils taught in the scholars home. The model they adopted was a Franco-Indigenous one which took the French school subjects as its basis. As the model developed, it was spread into the Protectorates. Well known products of this system included Truong Vinh Ky, Paulus Cua, Nguyen Van Vinh (founder of the Indochinese Review / Dong Duong Tap Chi), Pham Huy Ton, Pham Quynh, and Tran Trong Kim. This Franco-Indigenous system did not pretend to teach the students in French. Rather the vernacular language was used in many subjects, with French also being taught." (My notes from Brocheux and Hemery's "Indochina: An Ambiguous Colonization: 1858-1954")

Given the numbers, history, and relationships, it's easy to see why the impact of French colonization was stronger in the South than in the Center and North, and why it tended to be from the top down, and city and large town oriented, leaving the Confucian beliefs and practices of the 85%, the vast majority of whom lived in the countryside, largely untouched.

Adhome01 wrote:

The real confusion will come a few years after marriage. By this time the OP will have no interest in understanding the do's and don'ts of PDA. 

Note to self:  Never get married.

Oh and much hate to malign the old system, but Soviet culture seems to be quite prudish and rub off nicely in Vietnam, counter much of the loosing influence of French. I find that even in USSR and eastern Europe, they also become more prudish under Soviet regime.

It could be that free market make more use the concept "Sex Sells" and soviet economies have no use for that.

ParadiseCruiser,

Reference your: "The founding king of Nguyen dynasty sent his heir apparent to France in exchange for much helps in conquering the whole nation, though later on he checked their spreading influence. The hostage thing is one of reason the popular opinion in the north against the founding King: he used foreign resource."

That is the official story, however much of it is not true. The treaty signed between the French and (latent) Vietnamese monarchies never enter into effect because the (1) French never sent any of the agreed troops, and (2) the Governor of Pondichery (India) also refused to provide assistance, primarily because France itself was being wracked by the events that led to the French Revolution. So Bishop Pigneau de Behaine used his own money to recruit several hundred (up to 300, not all French) foreign military advisors in and around India, who assisted Nguyen Anh in his efforts. Seven of those individuals later married Vietnamese women and became officials in Nguyen Anh's court. At least one was still serving in Minh Mang's court.

James P. Daughton's article "Recasting Pigneau de Behaine", published in "Viet Nam Borderless Histories" (Uni. of Wisconsin Press) is a concise article on both Pigneau de Behaine's (minor) role in Vietnamese history, and how it got distorted.

Other sources on Nguyen Anh's war against the Tay Son also note that, at times, Nguyen Anh's army had more Khmer Krom fighters than ethnic Kinh, as well as a significant ethnic Chinese naval arm. The largest foreign contingent was a Chinese Army sent into Vietnam as the request of Trinh backed Emperor Le Chieu Tong to fight Nguyen Anh's army. And that Chinese Army was defeated by Nguyen Anh, forcing the Le and Trinh survivors to flee to China.

Back to the subject, public displays of affection, I read a recent article that traced Soviet "prudism" to the early Soviet period. In effect, the revolutionaries all believed in 'free love' as a principle, but the vast majority of Soviet citizens, steeped in the Orthodox Church, did not, so the revolutionaries dropped the 'free love' bit and embraced the idea of the Soviet family, with Stalin as the 'little father of the peoples'.

WOW  Jim, who poured accelerant on your little fire???????

DanFromSF wrote:

jimbream wrote:

PDA. Where on Earth did you you find such an asinine acronym?

PDA is a acceptable acronym for public display of affection.  Nothing wrong with using it, although the OP probably should have defined it beforehand, for those who aren't familiar with it.

Pardon my naievity, but what else does "PDA" mean ? particularly in regard to this forum

Thanks Lirelou and paradise cruiser, just what i wanted, a little historical insight as to how much and how affective foreign influence has been, apart from the English language and the Roman Catholic church and recent developments by the party, tradition seem to rule

mark stutley wrote:

Pardon my naievity, but what else does "PDA" mean ? particularly in regard to this forum

It's not a question of what else it means;  it's a question of not knowing what it means at all.

mark stutley wrote:

Pardon my naievity, but what else does "PDA" mean ? particularly in regard to this forum

It was the name of the terminology, Personal Digital Assistant, sold as Palm Pilot - that morphed into Web OS - and did many of the things iThingies do and claimed by Apple as original patents.

It's main feature was a 'pen' and it's ability to convert 'handwriting' into text - much like Wacom does on a Samsung these days.

Patent Ductus Arteriosus (PDA) is a heart problem that affects some babies soon after birth.

Pathological Demand Avoidance (PDA), first described in the 1980s, is a pervasive developmental disorder.

Or dozens more at [ acronyms.thefreedictionary (dot com) /PDA ].

The OP used the definition as shown in the Urban Dictionary.

Jaitch wrote:

It was the name of the terminology, Personal Digital Assistant, sold as Palm Pilot - that morphed into Web OS - and did many of the things iThingies do and claimed by Apple as original patents.

Not quite, my friend:

The term PDA was first used on January 7, 1992 by Apple Computer CEO John Sculley at the Consumer Electronics Show in Las Vegas, Nevada, referring to the Apple Newton.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_digital_assistant

The first Palm devices didn't hit the market until 1996.

DanFromSF wrote:

Jaitch wrote:

It was the name of the terminology, Personal Digital Assistant, sold as Palm Pilot - that morphed into Web OS - and did many of the things iThingies do and claimed by Apple as original patents.

I have one in a box somewhere at home. Re-read above and note the word 'patent'.

ALSO, PDA was a Personal Digital Assistant and used by Psion in 1984.

Still puts Apple as copy cat.

Jaitch wrote:

I have one in a box somewhere at home. Re-read above and note the word 'patent'.

Noted.  You insinuated Palm was the originator of technologies that were "claimed by Apple as original patents".  That's incorrect.  In fact, it's exactly the opposite:  Apple was the originator of technologies later used by US Robotics/Palm (e.g., a large, bitmapped touch screen,  icons representing what we now call "apps", etc.)

ALSO, PDA was a Personal Digital Assistant and used by Psion in 1984.

Sorry, wrong again.  The Psion Organiser is *now* considered the first PDA, mainly because of some rudimentary note-taking and calendar functions that were unique to it at the time, but the term "PDA"  was first used in 1992, by Apple. 

Still puts Apple as copy cat.

Psion Organiser:



Apple Newton:



Spitting image.  Shame on Apple. 

DanFromSF wrote:

Jaitch wrote:

ALSO, PDA was a Personal Digital Assistant and used by Psion in 1984.

We are discussing the letters PDA, not technology. These were used by Psion on the 1980's (in their paper advertising), along with the words. From the early days they had strong encryption (UK intelligence couldn't break it) which was my interest. Psion has been acquired by several companies, along with it's patents, by Motorola.

Elonex, Birmingham, UK had a PDA around 1986.

Apple adopted the terms in a patent and drew objections from Psion, and others, as the words were used in a UK patent filing.

I know what Wikipedia says, but in this matter, and many others, it's incorrect.

Jaitch wrote:

We are discussing the letters PDA, not technology.

{snip}

I know what Wikipedia says, but in this matter, and many others, it's incorrect.

Ummm... Reference?

Previously you were talking about  "the name of the terminology, Personal Digital Assistant, sold as Palm Pilot" which according to you, "did many of the things iThingies do" (i.e. the technology, not the term) that Apple inappropriately "claimed patents" on.  Now that I've shown you that (1) Apple coined the term at least four years prior to refer to the Newton and (2) Apple's Newton did many of the things Palm Pilots did at least four year prior,  we're actually only talking about Psion's alleged prior use of the term "PDA".

Okay then.

I'll wait patiently for you provide a reference to Psion using the term "PDA" prior to John Sculley in 1992.  I have a feeling I'll be waiting a while.

Depends on the girl. My wife is highly educated.  And she doesnt care. She kisses my holds my hand. Just depends